ECT We are not Israel, but the Body of Christ
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It does not have to. Simply quit reading your perceived context into my words.
I said oversimplifying, not over complicating.
All you have done is read your meaning into my words - that is oversimplification.
Take this wrong. That is your loss.
Personally, I find these issues of perception interesting.
In this, I find no room for a sense of personal offence.
That would just get in the way of my learning.
Right Divider
Body part
So how is what STP said "oversimplifying"?
It appears to me that he was accurately identifying important details.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
There are Gentiles who took two different paths in entering the Body of Christ.
Some Gentiles were near (in the promises), some Gentiles were far off (aliens).
I would like for Brother Danoh to explain who the "we who first trusted" are and who the "ye who also trusted" are in the letter to the Ephesians.
Right Divider
Body part
Are you saying that they are not the same? :sherlock:
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
They are now!
But they took different paths. Everyone alive today took the path of the far off Ephesians.
It appears to me you concluded on that issue (different Gentiles and or blessing) a bit too soon in your studies.
Ephesians 2's "far off" is a spiritual issue; it is not the issue of geography.
That has to be solved for before one gets into Ephesians.
Which is what Romans 1:18-3:30 is about.
Ephesians 2 is that part of Romans, summarized.
Ephesians 3 is Romans 8. And so on...
But we differ on this.
In contrast to the overwhelming evidence throughout Romans that the assembly at Rome was of the Body of Christ; you assert the Roman Gentiles were proselytes.
We differ in our understanding of some things because we each approach our study of them differently.
Where we agree within Mid-Acts, for example, our approach to those issues we do agree on, is basically the same approach throughout Mid-Acts.
It's interesting to me; this difference...
If you make a distinction between Christians who are of the physical bloodline and those who are not of the bloodline, you are clearly not in agreement with Romans 10: 12 and Galatians 3:28, and are preaching another Gospel (Galatians 1: 8-9, II Corinthians 11: 4).
"Israel is an eternal nation, heir to an eternal land, with an eternal kingdom, on which David rules from an eternal throne so that in eternity, '...never the twain, Israel and church, shall meet." Lewis S. Chafer, Systematic Theology (Dallas, Dallas Seminary Press, 1975), Vol. 4. pp. 315-323...
Charles C. Ryrie (born 1925) says:
"basic promise of Dispensationalism is two purposes of God expressed
in the formation of two peoples who maintain their distinction
throughout eternity." Charles C. Ryrie, Dispensationalism Today,1966, pp.44-45.
"And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd." John 10: 16
"For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another." Romans 12: 4-5
"There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;" Ephesians 4: 4
Followers of separation theology will Sidestep Away From John 10: 16, Romans 12: 4-5 and Ephesians 4: 4 and from Romans 10: 12 and Galatians 3:28.
But John 10: 16, Romans 12: 4-5 and Ephesians 4: 4, Romans 10: 12 and Galatians 3:28 do not say that there is one elect people of God, which is the Church. The church , always with a small c, from ekklesia, is not a different body of Christ from the Israel which is of God in Galatians 6: 16. And the elect of God is not the same as the church, because all who are of the church are not of the elect, and this is especially important in the time of the falling away of II Thessalonians 2; 3-4.
I have never known a born again Christian who claims to be of the physical bloodline, but this does not mean people of the bloodline cannot become born again Christians. Those who are not followers of separation theology might wonder why its followers are so zealous of their theology - when people claiming to be of the physical bloodline - Jews - can become born again Christians. And how many of you have had Jewish friends you have known for decades who never move toward accepting Christ? Isn't their believing that the bloodline is still effective for their position with God a big part of their refusal to accept Jesus Christ?
"Israel is an eternal nation, heir to an eternal land, with an eternal kingdom, on which David rules from an eternal throne so that in eternity, '...never the twain, Israel and church, shall meet." Lewis S. Chafer, Systematic Theology (Dallas, Dallas Seminary Press, 1975), Vol. 4. pp. 315-323...
Charles C. Ryrie (born 1925) says:
"basic promise of Dispensationalism is two purposes of God expressed
in the formation of two peoples who maintain their distinction
throughout eternity." Charles C. Ryrie, Dispensationalism Today,1966, pp.44-45.
"And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd." John 10: 16
"For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another." Romans 12: 4-5
"There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;" Ephesians 4: 4
Followers of separation theology will Sidestep Away From John 10: 16, Romans 12: 4-5 and Ephesians 4: 4 and from Romans 10: 12 and Galatians 3:28.
But John 10: 16, Romans 12: 4-5 and Ephesians 4: 4, Romans 10: 12 and Galatians 3:28 do not say that there is one elect people of God, which is the Church. The church , always with a small c, from ekklesia, is not a different body of Christ from the Israel which is of God in Galatians 6: 16. And the elect of God is not the same as the church, because all who are of the church are not of the elect, and this is especially important in the time of the falling away of II Thessalonians 2; 3-4.
I have never known a born again Christian who claims to be of the physical bloodline, but this does not mean people of the bloodline cannot become born again Christians. Those who are not followers of separation theology might wonder why its followers are so zealous of their theology - when people claiming to be of the physical bloodline - Jews - can become born again Christians. And how many of you have had Jewish friends you have known for decades who never move toward accepting Christ? Isn't their believing that the bloodline is still effective for their position with God a big part of their refusal to accept Jesus Christ?
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Why is there a picture of an Ellen White book on this thread?
Sent from my iPad using TOL ~Jesus is the Theology and the Counselor is the Commentary
All you are doing is comparing YOUR take of what Acts 2 Dispy writers have written with YOUR take on passages in Scripture.
And your take is as much a parroting of a view read about in YOUR books, as theirs is in their books.
And that doesn't even take in to account that you may or may not be taking those Acts 2 Dispy writer's points out of their writer's originally intended context.
In short, yours is the same old long line of notions and misperceptions against Dispensationalism in general that you and yours have been spouting as far back as one of you first took pen to paper.
Fact is, John's "other sheep not of this fold" referred to those Israelites scattered throughout the various Gentile nations of that time.
John 11:49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all, 11:50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not. 11:51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation; 11:52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.
At that time, the Gentiles were not the children of God.
Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
We're still waiting for you to even attempt to tackle Acts 9 Dispensationalism :chuckle:
The scattered Jews had become as Gentiles {nations)
God was always welcoming people into His kingdom from any peoples of the earth.
LA
God was always welcoming people into His kingdom from any peoples of the earth.
LA
:chuckle: Must be why the Lord reminded the half Israelite Samaritan woman in John 4 that "salvation is of the Jews."
Jesus was a true Jew.
Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Joh 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
ClimateSanity
New member
So, only Christians are Jews?
Only true and faithful Christians are true Jews of the heart like Jesus.
Joh 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
Joh 8:38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
Joh 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
Joh 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
Joh 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Joh 8:45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
Agreed on that much.
No agreement with you on this one.
Just goes to show what I have been pointing out lately - where two go by a same approach, they stand to end up on the same page.
Where they differ in approach, they stand to end up differing in view.
John 8 shows what Dean Gotcher has been talking about, which most in the churches do not understand or want to understand. The Pharisees in John 8 were trying to argue against the absolute truth which or who was standing before them. What Gotcher calls the dialectic is just that, an argument by someone coming from a position of not believing in absolute truth against God whose word is absolute truth. And the person who does not accept absolute truth does not understand what Gotcher is talking about.
Jesus said in John 8: 31-32 to the Pharisees"If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32. And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."
Christ was talking about something spiritual, that his truth could make even the Pharisees free of their bondage. "Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all." Galatians 4: 24-26
The Pharisees were the Jerusalem which is in bondage with her children. Christ came to put us into the Jerusalem which is above, is free and is the mother of us all (From Paul's point of view, "us all" being the elect.
What were the Pharisees in bondage to? To the flesh, and specifically to their huge number of dos and don'ts which they did not keep themselves and to a system of rigmarole. Paul says in II Corinthians 3: 6 that Jesus Christ ."..hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life."
In John 8: 33,"They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?"
The Pharisees were fixated on the flesh, and on the letter, and told Christ that they were the physical seed of Abraham, which they thought made them holy and the chosen people.
But in John 8: 59 the Pharisees took up stones to kill Christ, because their dialectic attack upon the truth did not work with Christ, and being fully led by the flesh, they tried to physically kill him. "...so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith." II Timothy 3: 8
Likewise, the followers of separation theology-dispensationalim-Christian Zionism resist the truth
Jesus said in John 8: 31-32 to the Pharisees"If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32. And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."
Christ was talking about something spiritual, that his truth could make even the Pharisees free of their bondage. "Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all." Galatians 4: 24-26
The Pharisees were the Jerusalem which is in bondage with her children. Christ came to put us into the Jerusalem which is above, is free and is the mother of us all (From Paul's point of view, "us all" being the elect.
What were the Pharisees in bondage to? To the flesh, and specifically to their huge number of dos and don'ts which they did not keep themselves and to a system of rigmarole. Paul says in II Corinthians 3: 6 that Jesus Christ ."..hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life."
In John 8: 33,"They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?"
The Pharisees were fixated on the flesh, and on the letter, and told Christ that they were the physical seed of Abraham, which they thought made them holy and the chosen people.
But in John 8: 59 the Pharisees took up stones to kill Christ, because their dialectic attack upon the truth did not work with Christ, and being fully led by the flesh, they tried to physically kill him. "...so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith." II Timothy 3: 8
Likewise, the followers of separation theology-dispensationalim-Christian Zionism resist the truth
musterion
Well-known member
You didn't answer STP's simple question.
Who were the "we who FIRST trusted" and who were the "ye who ALSO trusted" in the letter to the Ephesians?