ECT Water or No Water?

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Matt. 7:6

These words are being spoken to the Jews, not the Body of Christ.

 

[God's Truth]

Hi and here is a LITERAL translation of 1 Cor 10:1 !!

The Holy Spirit writes , " Now I do not wish you to be Ignorant , brethren , that all OUR FATHERS ( those of Moses time ) were uinder the Cloud , and all passed through the Sea .

v2 , And all were PLACED ( a transliteration of the Greek word BAPTIZO ) ( TOGETHER ) unto Moses In the Cloud and in the Sea!!

Another good transliterated Greek word for BAPTIZO is the word Identification !!

No water here at all !!

dan p

This is where you started to go wrong, when you said, "No water here at all!!"

 

[turbosixx]

H , and just where is that gospel mentioned in Acts 2 !!:mock::mock:

dan p

Acts 2:23 this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. 24 But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power.

37 Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?" 38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

 

[turbosixx]

These words are being spoken to the Jews, not the Body of Christ.

There was no body at the time this was spoken.

 

[turbosixx]

Nope. We're living in the "Dispensation of Grace" and the "Grace Message" (Paul's Gospel) is in force. For Jew and gentile alike.

38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

How is this not grace? I'm sure you know what grace means. Did they EARN the forgiveness of sins?

 

[turbosixx]

This is where you started to go wrong, when you said, "No water here at all!!"

He is deflecting by focusing on a word and will not acknowledge that a cloud and sea are made of water because it wouldn't support his twist.

I have always understood baptism to be immersion.

Original Word: βαπτίζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: baptizó
Phonetic Spelling: (bap-tid'-zo)
Short Definition: I dip, submerge, baptize
Definition: lit: I dip, submerge, but specifically of ceremonial dipping; I baptize.

 

[God's Truth]

He is deflecting by focusing on a word and will not acknowledge that a cloud and sea are made of water because it wouldn't support his twist.

I have always understood baptism to be immersion.

Original Word: βαπτίζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: baptizó
Phonetic Spelling: (bap-tid'-zo)
Short Definition: I dip, submerge, baptize
Definition: lit: I dip, submerge, but specifically of ceremonial dipping; I baptize.

Paul spoke of the sea and cloud water, and Peter spoke of the flood as the water that saved.

1 Peter 3:20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God

 

[turbosixx]

Paul spoke of the sea and cloud water, and Peter spoke of the flood as the water that saved.

1 Peter 3:20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God

Yes, it's clear water is needed for baptism.

baptism that now saves you
vs
baptism can't save you

One is a direct quote from the bible but sadly people today believe the other one.

 

[God's Truth]

Yes, it's clear water is needed for baptism.

baptism that now saves you
vs
baptism can't save you

One is a direct quote from the bible but sadly people today believe the other one.

Water baptism is symbolic of what has already happened inside the believer.

Water baptism is a ceremony where you promise to God that you will die to the sins of the world and live pleasing to Jesus.

It is not much unlike a wedding ceremony.

I know people who believe in God and Jesus, and have much faith, yet they do not want to get water baptized. I think it is because they do not have their heart set on pleasing God and do not desire to stop sinning.

 

[DAN P]

Water baptism is symbolic of what has already happened inside the believer.

Water baptism is a ceremony where you promise to God that you will die to the sins of the world and live pleasing to Jesus.

It is not much unlike a wedding ceremony.

I know people who believe in God and Jesus, and have much faith, yet they do not want to get water baptized. I think it is because they do not have their heart set on pleasing God and do not desire to stop sinning.

Hi , and the Greek word BAPTIZO /BAPTISM is a Transliteration as there is not Literal word in English so what does 1 Cor 15:29 means " BAPTIZO for the dead , mean ??

Or explain 1 Cor 10:2 mean , so EXPLAIN and stop running away from these verses !!:darwinsm::darwinsm:

dan p

 

[turbosixx]

Hi , and the Greek word BAPTIZO /BAPTISM is a Transliteration as there is not Literal word in English so what does 1 Cor 15:29 means " BAPTIZO for the dead , mean ??

Or explain 1 Cor 10:2 mean , so EXPLAIN and stop running away from these verses !!:darwinsm::darwinsm:

dan p

Original Word: βαπτίζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: baptizó
Phonetic Spelling: (bap-tid'-zo)
Short Definition: I dip, submerge, baptize
Definition: lit: I dip, submerge, but specifically of ceremonial dipping; I baptize.

 

[HisServant]

My understanding of the Greek word has to with something being transformed by a process.

For example.

Iron dipped in hot oil or water is quenched and significantly alters it's composition..

A cucumber dipped in vinegar is transformed into a pickle.

Dipping us in water does not transform us... it only removes exterior dirt.

The Holy Spirit is the only thing that is transformational... and that is what John the Baptist promised was coming when he baptized Jesus.

Water baptism was something that was only required in the Old Covenant as part of a Jewish rite... a final washing away of the stain of the Old Covenant.

http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/baptizo.html

 

[turbosixx]

My understanding of the Greek word has to with something being transformed by a process.

For example.

Iron dipped in hot oil or water is quenched and significantly alters it's composition..

A cucumber dipped in vinegar is transformed into a pickle.

Dipping us in water does not transform us... it only removes exterior dirt.

The Holy Spirit is the only thing that is transformational... and that is what John the Baptist promised was coming when he baptized Jesus.

Water baptism was something that was only required in the Old Covenant as part of a Jewish rite... a final washing away of the stain of the Old Covenant.

http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/baptizo.html

I'm curious where you got "your understanding". I did not do an exhaustive word search, just the first Greek definition that came up. It does not say anything about change. If you have another source, I would be interested in seeing it.

I understand that an example of baptism is dyeing. I was told that the material changes from being immersed. If immersion caused the change, then would it change without the dye in the water. It's being dipped, submerged but without the dye it does not change, therefore the immersion doesn't do the changing.

 

[God's Truth]

Hi , and the Greek word BAPTIZO /BAPTISM is a Transliteration as there is not Literal word in English so what does 1 Cor 15:29 means " BAPTIZO for the dead , mean ??

Or explain 1 Cor 10:2 mean , so EXPLAIN and stop running away from these verses !!:darwinsm::darwinsm:

dan p

It means obey Jesus.

What does Jesus say?

Jesus says to obey him.

 

[HisServant]

I'm curious where you got "your understanding". I did not do an exhaustive word search, just the first Greek definition that came up. It does not say anything about change. If you have another source, I would be interested in seeing it.

I understand that an example of baptism is dyeing. I was told that the material changes from being immersed. If immersion caused the change, then would it change without the dye in the water. It's being dipped, submerged but without the dye it does not change, therefore the immersion doesn't do the changing.

Nicander's recipe for pickles.. he existed around 200 BC.. where he uses two varients of the word in his recipe.. bapto is used to describe dipping the cucumber in boiling water where as baptizo is used when the cucumber is put into vinegar thus becoming something entirely different... a pickle. So baptizo is the word that signifies changing one thing into another.

In the Ninth Book of the Odyssey, the word baptizo is used to describe a blacksmith plunging a piece of hot iron in water to temper it which changes it fundamental properties.

There are 7 different baptisms referenced in scripture... not all involve water... and all signify a change.

 

[Hawkins]

When Paul talks of the baptism of Moses, is he making an argument that water was part of the baptism or that no water was involved?

1 Cor. 10:1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. 2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.

There's a parallel between Jesus and Moses, Christians are said to be baptized into Jesus, just like the Jews are baptized into Moses as Paul said.

Hades resembles the sea, baptism means we are going to be buried in such a sea of water. Baptism has another more important meaning, which is we will be pulled out of water which signifies the resurrection raising us from death/water. After resurrection we will be gathered in/under the clouds (the rapture). As a result, water represents that we are buried through death while clouds may signify that we will be raised with life.

The parallel:
Moses as a great prophet of the Jews, led the Jews going across the Red Sea, finally reaching the promised land for the Jews - Canaan.

Jesus as the greatest prophet of all time, will lead humans going across the sea of Hades, finally reaching the promised land for humans - the new earth and new heaven.

 

[HisServant]

There's a parallel between Jesus and Moses, Christians are said to be baptized into Jesus, just like the Jews are baptized into Moses as Paul said.

Hades resembles the sea, baptism means we are going to be buried in such a sea of water. Baptism has another more important meaning, which is we will be pulled out of water which signifies the resurrection raising us from death/water. After resurrection we will be gathered in/under the clouds (the rapture). As a result, water represents that we are buried through death while clouds may signify that we will be raised with life.

The parallel:
Moses as a great prophet of the Jews, led the Jews going across the Red Sea, finally reaching the promised land for the Jews - Canaan.

Jesus as the greatest prophet of all time, will lead humans going across the sea of Hades, finally reaching the promised land for humans - the new earth and new heaven.

Interesting fairy tale.. but it doesn't pass the stink test.

 

[Hawkins]

Interesting fairy tale.. but it doesn't pass the stink test.

You can simply choose to treat the whole Bible as a fairy tale then to lose your life over it. While I simply point out the parallel between Jesus and Moses just as Paul tired to imply.

 

[turbosixx]

Nicander's recipe for pickles.. he existed around 200 BC.. where he uses two varients of the word in his recipe.. bapto is used to describe dipping the cucumber in boiling water where as baptizo is used when the cucumber is put into vinegar thus becoming something entirely different... a pickle. So baptizo is the word that signifies changing one thing into another.

In the Ninth Book of the Odyssey, the word baptizo is used to describe a blacksmith plunging a piece of hot iron in water to temper it which changes it fundamental properties.

There are 7 different baptisms referenced in scripture... not all involve water... and all signify a change.

I personally wouldn't use those to understand the meaning of a word. I'll stick with Strongs.

I would think the reason they don't all refer to water is because the word doesn't mean water. Water is just one of the thinks a person can be immersed in.

In this particular baptism, is water involved?

1 Cor. 10:1 For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; 2and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

 

[HisServant]

I personally wouldn't use those to understand the meaning of a word. I'll stick with Strongs.

I would think the reason they don't all refer to water is because the word doesn't mean water. Water is just one of the thinks a person can be immersed in.

In this particular baptism, is water involved?

1 Cor. 10:1 For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; 2and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

I don't see any water contact there... if anything the people should be grateful that there wasn't or they would have been in a heap of trouble.

Just as Jesus second baptism did not include water either, of which Christians are partakers also. (Jesus referred to his DBR as a baptism which transformed him).