Warmbier deserved his cruel torture because of white privilege

Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
...Just some thoughts that may or may not advance the discussion.
I thought that was very interesting and had a great deal of truth to it, if not necessarily on the point I'm addressing, which is how the term is used here, largely, and why.

One particular point in addressing the segregation of public and private morality. To my mind it's more a reflection on a changing context and thinking in relation to general principles of government that we largely failed early in the life of the Republic. On the one hand we recognized the need for an equal standing before the law and the essential equality of man before God. On the other hand we owned people and denied women and others an equal standing before the law or in the exercise of right. Similarly, it was around a hundred years from emancipation to full participation for blacks in our society.

With the church, for generations laws which favored both one religion and in some cases a particular form of it were on the books in many states and echoed in the larger federal government. Those laws often promoted the idea that many fled Europe to avoid, a state sanctioned church, if created de facto. It wasn't really addressed or much of an issue because so many of the early peoples of our nation shared the same faith and settled into communities that reflected their particular brand of it. Generations of people were born and died in those same communities. The industrial awakening of America changed that. It brought a migratory trend among the people, began to change the ease and assumption of those established communities as people entered into them with different practices and ideas. Eventually it challenged it to the point where what had been an easy and invited yoke became an obvious problem.
 

nikolai_42

Well-known member
I thought that was very interesting and had a great deal of truth to it, if not necessarily on the point I'm addressing, which is how the term is used here, largely, and why.

Yeah...I almost didn't post it because it seemed a little out there in relation to the discussion. If nothing else I figured it might be an interesting diversion (or object of derision). Either way, glad you at least found it interesting if not entirely on point. While on different sides of the political aisle, I have always found your posts to be interesting and thought-provoking even if I have disagreed.

One particular point in addressing the segregation of public and private morality. To my mind it's more a reflection on a changing context and thinking in relation to general principles of government that we largely failed early in the life of the Republic. On the one hand we recognized the need for an equal standing before the law and the essential equality of man before God. On the other hand we owned people and denied women and others an equal standing before the law or in the exercise of right. Similarly, it was around a hundred years from emancipation to full participation for blacks in our society.

While I generally agree, I think the truth of the matter is more nuanced than a lot of people want to accept. And in a politically correct society, I don't think the discussion can be had on any significant scale without violent irrationality predominating. I recently watched a documentary on Netflix that was absolutely fascinating (Accidental Courtesy) about Daryl Davis - a black man who was befriending KKK leaders and as they became his friend, they all (I think) pulled away from the white supremacist movement. Needless to say he met a lot of hostility on both sides. But it illustrates the fact that the debate CAN be had without descending into violence and total isolation of both sides of the argument.

Have to run (a little unexpectedly). Will add to this - with more details than generalities - later.


With the church, for generations laws which favored both one religion and in some cases a particular form of it were on the books in many states and echoed in the larger federal government. Those laws often promoted the idea that many fled Europe to avoid, a state sanctioned church, if created de facto. It wasn't really addressed or much of an issue because so many of the early peoples of our nation shared the same faith and settled into communities that reflected their particular brand of it. Generations of people were born and died in those same communities. The industrial awakening of America changed that. It brought a migratory trend among the people, began to change the ease and assumption of those established communities as people entered into them with different practices and ideas. Eventually it challenged it to the point where what had been an easy and invited yoke became an obvious problem.
 

Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
What VALID argument? Produce your first one and we can talk.
She does, but then...
What in the world was that word Scrabble?
A valid argument. So, maybe she's not the one with a problem :plain: And by maybe I mean, of course, she's not the one with the problem.

Don't worry too much about this one, Rusha. You give him a solid, factual step by step answer and he just fades into the woodwork and starts banging another drum, eventually.
 

rocketman

Resident Rocket Surgeon
Hall of Fame
No they don't. Who is praising North Korea outside of Dennis Rodman? You shouldn't use "like NK" so you can tag liberals with the association.

Nice of you to conveniently leave out Cuba another liberal mecca, I guess you could include Venezuela as well...liberals do love their socialists after all...maybe you personally don't but, you may be out of touch with the liberal left these days anyway TH. You are an old school democrat (not saying you are old :chuckle:), that party (traditional democrat) is finished and all that is left are the despotic, subversive, anti-constitutional, anti-American, marxist/socialist progressive left which absolutely do identify with the former aforementioned despotic nations and more.
 

Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
Yeah...I almost didn't post it because it seemed a little out there in relation to the discussion. If nothing else I figured it might be an interesting diversion (or object of derision). Either way, glad you at least found it interesting if not entirely on point. While on different sides of the political aisle, I have always found your posts to be interesting and thought-provoking even if I have disagreed.
Likewise, though I don't believe we're on different sides of the aisle, as I don't really have one, finding enough on both sides to both value and reject.

While I generally agree, I think the truth of the matter is more nuanced than a lot of people want to accept. And in a politically correct society, I don't think the discussion can be had on any significant scale without violent irrationality predominating. I recently watched a documentary on Netflix that was absolutely fascinating (Accidental Courtesy) about Daryl Davis - a black man who was befriending KKK leaders and as they became his friend, they all (I think) pulled away from the white supremacist movement. Needless to say he met a lot of hostility on both sides. But it illustrates the fact that the debate CAN be had without descending into violence and total isolation of both sides of the argument.
That sounds interesting. I'll have to find it. Thanks for the information. On the debate end, I'd say it's possible, but when it comes to some matters I suspect it depends on the root. Ignorance is curable. It isn't actually willful, is in fact a distortion of the will. Most people want to believe that what they value is true. When someone holds an opinion contrary to facts and the facts have been presented, it's something else again. I'm not sure that changes.

Have to run (a little unexpectedly). Will add to this - with more details than generalities - later.
Looking forward to it. :cheers:
 

Rusha

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
She does, but then...

A valid argument. So, maybe she's not the one with a problem :plain: And by maybe I mean, of course, she's not the one with the problem.

Don't worry too much about this one, Rusha. You give him a solid, factual step by step answer and he just fades into the woodwork and starts banging another drum, eventually.

Oh ... I wouldn't have known this post was about me had I not read your post. FTR, he has been on ignore for close to a year ... but thanks for defending me! :D
 

Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
Nice of you to conveniently leave out Cuba another liberal mecca,
I left it out because I think Cuba is a valid case with a valid criticism. It was the attempt to shoe horn NK and the young man's plight that I was objecting to.

I guess you could include Venezuela as well...liberals do love their socialists after all.
I don't know enough of them to have an opinion. I expect they'd be happier with France and European socialist countries that give right wingers fits because they can't play certain chords they can with South America.

..maybe you personally don't but, you may be out of touch with the liberal left these days anyway TH.
It's not a going concern in my part of the world. I can't say I have time to keep up with either end of the pole much these days.

You are an old school democrat (not saying you are old :chuckle:),
When Jack goes on a tear I might beg to differ. :) There was a section of the Democratic and Republican party that I could have felt at home in once, and did...but things are so polarized and loud these days I can't. I'd vote for Reagan today, but he's not here and there's nothing like him in the party, only pretenders. The thing I once liked about Dems was their championing of the least empowered. The Republicans actually had that for a time as well.

Now, I think they're all in one pocket or another and it's getting harder to see doing anything about it. The Court has made money into speech and corporations into people with rights. Who can win against that? When Congress votes directly against the will of most of its constituents on a point, as it did not long ago with the NRA, you know who is and who isn't in charge.

that party (traditional democrat) is finished and all that is left are the despotic, subversive, anti-constitutional, anti-American, marxist/socialist progressive left which absolutely do identify with the former, aforementioned despotic nations and more.
Yeah, I don't agree with any of that any more than I agree with similarly hard estimates from the left about the right. And that's part of why I've essentially decided to calmly, reasonably differ on points and invest most of my efforts into local elections, where I know the men and judges and can count on their character.

It's going to take some convincing to get me to pull a presidential lever again any time soon.
 

Rusha

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
I'd vote for Reagan today, but he's not here and there's nothing like him in the party, only pretenders.

I would have as well and actually did. I would have also cast a vote for Kasich. However, as everyone knows, Trump does not live up to their moral character ... or competency. This is about competency and character ... two things Trump will never have.
 

rocketman

Resident Rocket Surgeon
Hall of Fame
Ah, but plain old despotic countries, Saudi Arabia or Turkey for example, garner Trumpian praise. Got it.

You will never see me praise SA, Turkey, or any other muslim nation, they too are despotic dictatorships however, the enemy of my enemy is my friend, and it suits America's own security interests to prop up the enemy of my enemy. It is called strategy...you wouldn't understand.
 

rocketman

Resident Rocket Surgeon
Hall of Fame
When Jack goes on a tear I might beg to differ. :)

I feel ya, I have two boys, 13 & 10 making me feel older every day. :chuckle:


There was a section of the Democratic and Republican party that I could have felt at home in once, and did...but things are so polarized and loud these days I can't. I'd vote for Reagan today, but he's not here and there's nothing like him in the party, only pretenders. The thing I once liked about Dems was their championing of the least empowered. The Republicans actually had that for a time as well.

Now, I think they're all in one pocket or another and it's getting harder to see doing anything about it. The Court has made money into speech and corporations into people with rights. Who can win against that? When Congress votes directly against the will of most of its constituents on a point, as it did not long ago with the NRA, you know who is and who isn't in charge.

I can agree with most of this, especially agree that civility has left the building in politics anyway. I disagree with your bit on the NRA, and believe that that they represented me quite well as it refers to my 2nd amendment rights. When you speak of the NRA you are touching on yet another polarizing issue which I am sure we disagree.


Yeah, I don't agree with any of that any more than I agree with similarly hard estimates from the left about the right. And that's part of why I've essentially decided to calmly, reasonably differ on points and invest most of my efforts into local elections, where I know the men and judges and can count on their character.

You don't have to agree TH but,unless the democrat party reinvents itself, finds a message that includes the rather large voting block they have summarily ignored called the "working class", they are finished. The modern democrat is a elitist entitled ideological group which only represents issues that most Americans do not care about,and ignores the issues that concern them because they don't fit the globalist marxist agenda. This is why they have been losing elections in large form since Jan 2009, and yet the democrats continue to move further left away from their voter base which is far more centrist, I think you know it too.


It's going to take some convincing to get me to pull a presidential lever again any time soon.

I will pull it every time regardless, I will always vote against socialism & big government no matter who the man/woman is who is opposing it. You may hate the current occupant, and I am no big fan of Trump personally but, I am very happy with the job he is doing thus far, the people he has picked, the judges he has picked, etc. The more he dismantles the government machine, the more judges that honor the constitution, and judge law instead of making law, the more he puts America first abroad, the more he enforces existing immigration laws, the more I like the man for the job he is doing, which is exactly why he was elected, in spite of the whiners, obstructionists, and resisters on the left that do not give a damn about America or the citizens that dwell here, only their petty power base to lord over the citizenry. You are correct about the polarization , and I don't expect to see that end anytime soon.
 

Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
I feel ya, I have two boys, 13 & 10 making me feel older every day. :chuckle:
:D


I can agree with most of this, especially agree that civility has left the building in politics anyway. I disagree with your bit on the NRA, and believe that that they represented me quite well as it refers to my 2nd amendment rights. When you speak of the NRA you are touching on yet another polarizing issue which I am sure we disagree.
I think that if you find yourself agreeing with every position taken by any organization you're probably not paying close attention to every position taken by the organization. I'm for 2nd Amendment. I'm also for gun registration and I'd like a mandatory course in safety attached to the exercise. Because every right is subject to reasonable expectations, which is why you can't say anything you want anywhere you want to. I'll find the particular measure, but congress (and not terribly long ago) actually and literally voted with the NRA and against a heady majority of Americans on a bill. I'll find it a little later and bring it up again.

You don't have to agree TH but,unless the democrat party reinvents itself, finds a message that includes the rather large voting block they have summarily ignored called the "working class", they are finished.
I don't know why you believe that, though I can understand why you'd want to, being opposed. Gallup tells me that as of 2016, 29% of Americans identified as Dems and 26% as Reps. 42% identified as independents. I suspect both parties are in trouble. If the trend holds look for a real third party candidate to emerge sooner rather than later.

The modern democrat is a elitist entitled ideological group
I like you but I just tune out at that point. It's more of what you said in your last post and the only people who will listen to much of it already share your opinion. I've heard it, I simply don't agree with it, or with the left variant. I suspect the shift to unaligned might signal that more people are starting to feel similarly. They at least aren't feeling particularly represented.

I will pull it every time regardless, I will always vote against socialism & big government
There's no lever that leads to that, rm. Not a one.

You may hate the current occupant, and I am no big fan of Trump personally
Why do I have to hate someone that you're not a big fan of? Can't I simply find him without character and an embarrassment to the nation he largely doesn't represent, either as an individual or in terms of the actual popular vote? I don't hate Trump, but I'd rather he not be president.

but, I am very happy with the job he is doing thus far, the people he has picked, the judges he has picked, etc. The more he dismantles the government machine, the more judges that honor the constitution, and judge law instead of making law, the more he puts America first abroad, the more he enforces existing immigration laws, the more I like the man for the job he is doing, which is exactly why he was elected, in spite of the whiners, obstructionists, and resisters on the left that do not give a damn about America or the citizens that dwell here, only their petty power base to lord over the citizenry. You are correct about the polarization , and I don't expect to see that end anytime soon.
Given what came after "personally" I'm hard pressed to find how you aren't a big fan and I don't see why you should expect an end to a thing you're piling onto, rm, with the demonizing and simplifying of the other side and a tacit atta boy for a man who really hasn't done much that we can judge. He's played a lot of golf, which is funny. He ran up a huge and needless bill in New York, which is less so. The healthcare he's pushing appears to be one aimed at penalizing the old and setting up tax cuts for those who least need them.

Happy days... :plain:
 

ClimateSanity

New member
She does, but then...

A valid argument. So, maybe she's not the one with a problem :plain: And by maybe I mean, of course, she's not the one with the problem.

Don't worry too much about this one, Rusha. You give him a solid, factual step by step answer and he just fades into the woodwork and starts banging another drum, eventually.
A valid argument should be clear and coherent; neither of which describes your word salad.
 

Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
A valid argument should be clear and coherent; neither of which describes your word salad.
Point to a single sentence that confuses you. I'll wait while, as is ever the case with you, it doesn't happen.

Copied the block and ran it through a reading level calculator. I make an effort to keep it relatively simple, understanding that a doctoral thesis isn't helpful in a public forum.

It came back at an undergraduate level, sophomore to junior, according to the Linsear index. Maybe the problem is you.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
Point to a single sentence that confuses you. I'll wait while, as is ever the case with you, it doesn't happen.

Copied the block and ran it through a reading level calculator. I make an effort to keep it relatively simple, understanding that a doctoral thesis isn't helpful in a public forum.

It came back at an undergraduate level, sophomore to junior, according to the Linsear index. Maybe the problem is you.

:mock: Clownie is so taken with himself....it should be against the law. Oops...PRIDE is hated by God.
 

Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
:mock: Clownie is so taken with himself..
Seriously, I could write a page out of a cookbook and she'd hammer one of those out. Her whole keyboard is stuck. :think: Which isn't a bad idea when you consider it.

..it should be against the law.
What have you got against nouns?

Oops...PRIDE is hated by God.
Guess how he feels about false witness.

Anyway, I don't have to be taken with myself to be taken aback by idiots. Like I have to tell you...okay, I probably do. Point taken.
 

Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
Teaching 'safety' with guns is nonsense. I've had plenty of guns in my hand, and I can tell you one thing familiar with every time I've held one- 'safety' is counter intuitive. Guns are instruments of death, you see. They are engineered to ✞kill✞
That's probably why all the armed forces just go, "Here, this is a gun. There's some ammo. Try not to kill anyone...I mean try not to kill anyone with the same uniform on. You're good to go." :plain:

Come on HC, that's counter-intuitive.


You'll vote Trump in 20
Twenty what? :plain:
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
Teaching 'safety' with guns is nonsense. I've had plenty of guns in my hand, and I can tell you one thing familiar with every time I've held one- 'safety' is counter intuitive. Guns are instruments of death, you see. They are engineered to ✞kill✞

In other words, you ought not hold one unless you plan on killing something :)

It's best to practice a lot which requires holding them.

Which Apostle did that?

There were no guns back in the days of the Apostles. :chew:
 
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