Unconditional Election vs. Total Depravity

[genuineoriginal]

Saul (aka Paul) was a murderer.

Saul/Paul was complicit in the death of many believers, whether he killed anyone or not.

His focus was more on keeping the law than loving God.

No, if that was true then Paul would not have persecuted the Christians and would not have been chosen by God to preach the gospel.

You seem to have missed the entire theme of Genesis, and therefore miss the meaning of what Jesus did.

Genesis has several themes.
What Jesus did was foreshadowed in the lives of Noah, Abrahm, Isaac, Jacob, and Joseph

What do you think is the "entire" theme of Genesis?

 

[JudgeRightly]

Saul/Paul was complicit in the death of many believers, whether he killed anyone or not.


No, if that was true then Paul would not have persecuted the Christians and would not have been chosen by God to preach the gospel.

Then Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest and asked letters from him to the synagogues of Damascus, so that if he found any who were of the Way, whether men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem. - Acts 9:1-2 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts9:1-2&version=NKJV

That doesn't sound like someone who loves God. That sounds like someone who is following the law rather than God.

Genesis has several themes.
What Jesus did was foreshadowed in the lives of Noah, Abrahm, Isaac, Jacob, and Joseph

What do you think is the "entire" theme of Genesis?

The entire theme of Genesis is "sibling swaps."

Five times in Genesis it describes siblings swapping places.

https://youtu.be/n83O4sxmzLg

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Practically everything was in common except that the Twelve now understood that the Messiah and the Lamb of God were one and the same person. Otherwise, the message was the same, repent so that God will send Jesus back and give Israel her kingdom (i.e. times of refreshing) - Acts 3.

No, here is what John was preaching about the Lord Jesus' appearance:

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is" (1 Jn.3:2).​

Those who received John's epistles were taught that they might well be alive when the Lord appears--"when he shall appear...we shall see him as he is."

They were also taught that "when he shall appear... we shall be like him."

This will happen when the Lord descends from heaven and the living saints will put on glorious bodies just like the body of the Lord Jesus. The events of which are spoken of at 1 John 3:2 John can only be in regard to the rapture spoken of here by Paul:

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed" (1 Cor.15:51-52).​

This will happen when the Lord descends from heaven and the living saints will put on glorious bodies just like the body of the Lord Jesus.

According to Paul Sadler, the past President of the Berean Bible Society, only the members of the Body of Christ will be raptured:

"The 'secret' resurrection that will take place at the Rapture should never be confused with the 'first' resurrection at the Second Coming of Christ. Those who rightly divide the Word of truth now see that only the members of the Body of Christ will be raised at the Rapture" [emphasis mine] (Sadler, Exploring the Unsearchable Riches of Christ [Stephens Point, WI: Worzalla Publishing Co., 1993], 167).​

One thing's they for sure! They were NOT preaching...

Romans 4: 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works

David lived under the law and he was saved by grace through faith, just like all of the others who were saved while living under the law:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

 

[Clete]

God compromising on punishing sinners is the only reason for Jesus to die on the cross.
Any other reason would be an injustice.

The Old Testament has several examples of God compromising on justice, like this one:

Exodus 32:9-14 9 And the Lord said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people: 10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation. 11 And Moses besought the Lord his God, and said, Lord, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand? 12 Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people. 13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever. 14 And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.​

I've already responded to this. Your repeating yourself doesn't advance the discussion.

Jesus is worthy because He was obedient unto death on the cross.
It was not Jesus' death that was the important part in that equation, it was His obedience.

You are not a Christian. This discussion will go nowhere.

By saying that, you are making a mockery of Jesus' obedience.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

The doctrine came from the Bible, not from the distorted teachings of modern Christianity.
It comes from Jesus being the "redeemer", us being bought with a price, and us being the servants (slaves) of Jesus.

As I said, you are not a Christian. I had no idea that you held such heretical beliefs.

Disappointing.

Our debt to Jesus is a debt of service.

Legalism.

Our salvation is a gift, not a debt.

The only way you can make that statement is by being mired in multiple false doctrines that are currently being taught by modern Christianity.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

By that logic, there was no need for any of the twelve disciples.

There were twelve Apostles because 12 is a number associated with the Nation of Israel.

What there is no need for is a thirteenth.

No, the main reason I believe they are the same gospel is because I read Paul with understanding of the Old Testament that he is constantly referring to.

You've already admitted to the contrary.

I do not believe Paul's gospel contradicts the rest of the Bible.

Your belief does not alter reality.

In other words, whether Paul's gospel contradicts (i.e. is different than) the rest of the Bible is not a matter of opinion. It either does or it doesn't.

You have not given a valid reason for believing that Paul had a different gospel that contradicts the rest of the Bible.

Of course I have.

The people that are splitting Paul's words off from the rest of the Bible (Old Testament and New Testament) are wrong, whether they believe only Paul or they reject Paul.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

If you didn't want to discuss this with substantive responses then why not just say so? This is boring.

Have you spent any time comparing what Paul is recorded as preaching in Acts with what you have mistakenly assumed is Paul's gospel of grace?

I've been studying, discussing and debating this topic for decades.

If you think that there's something in Acts that I've missed, why not make the argument instead of wasting time asking pedantic questions?

If I understand your position correctly, you believe that there are three different Bibles, one is your Bible (Paul's writings) and two are not your Bibles (Old Testament, New Testament without Paul's writings).

You do not understand correctly.

In fact such an understand isn't possible in an honest and rationally thinking mind. This was either a lie or was just a flatly stupid thing to say.

I had just cited the entire book of James as "one of my clearest and strongest proof texts", for crying out loud.



Do not bother responding to this post. I won't read it. This topic is one of my very favorites but I do not waste time discussing with with people who are not Christians.

Clete

 

[genuineoriginal]

Then Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priestand asked letters from him to the synagogues of Damascus, so that if he found any who were of the Way, whether men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem. - Acts 9:1-2 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts9:1-2&version=NKJV

That doesn't sound like someone who loves God.

You didn't see inside Paul's heart the way God did.

That sounds like someone who is following the law rather than God.

Please post the commandments from the Law that you think Paul was following.

The entire theme of Genesis is "sibling swaps."

Five times in Genesis it describes siblings swapping places.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Our salvation is a gift, not a debt.

Are you blind, or are you just unable to see?

Our salvation is not a gift God gives to us for our sake.
Our salvation is a gift God gives to Himself.
We cannot obligate God to give us salvation through doing nothing more than keeping the things He commanded us to do.

I've been studying, discussing and debating this topic for decades.

You have done that for decades without understanding anything about how the people in the first century thought about these matters?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Our salvation is not a gift God gives to us for our sake.
Our salvation is a gift God gives to Himself.

"But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Ro.3:21-24).​

Those who have received the spirit which is of God KNOW that our salvation is free gift:

"Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God" (1 Cor.2:12).​

 

[genuineoriginal]

This topic is one of my very favorites but I do not waste time discussing with with people who are not Christians.

In other words, no matter how right I am you will never listen to the truth?

 

[genuineoriginal]

"But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Ro.3:21-24).​

Those who have received the spirit which is of God KNOW that our salvation is free gift:

"Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God" (1 Cor.2:12).​

Paul does not say our salvation is a free gift that God gives to us.
Please check the verses again.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Paul does not say our salvation is a free gift that God gives to us.

Paul is saying that the believer is "justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Ro.3:21-24).

When a person is justified in the eyes of God he is saved. And Paul says that justification is free. We also read the following:

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph.2:8-9).​

 

[john w]

Paul does not say our salvation is a free gift that God gives to us.
Please check the verses again.

You made that up, as it is written:

Romans 6:23 KJV For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Memorize the word "but"-wages, i.e., that which you earn, is contrasted with a gift, i.e., by definition, that which you do not earn.

 

[genuineoriginal]

We also read the following:

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph.2:8-9).​

it is the gift δῶρον of God
The gift is not a gift God would give to us.
The gift is a special kind of gift, a gift offered to God.

g1435 δῶρον dōron a gift, present gifts offered in expression of honour of sacrifices and other gifts offered to God of money cast into the treasury for the purposes of the temple and for the support of the poor the offering of a gift or of gifts

​

Spoiler

Every instance of the word found in the New Testament.

Matthew 2:11 11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.​

Matthew 5:23-24 23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; 24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.​

Matthew 8:4 4 And Jesus saith unto him, See thou tell no man; but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.​

Matthew 15:5 5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;​

Matthew 23:18-19 18 And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty. 19 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?​

Mark 7:11 11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.​

Luke 21:1 1 And he looked up, and saw the rich men casting their gifts into the treasury.​

Luke 21:4 4 For all these have of their abundance cast in unto the offerings of God: but she of her penury hath cast in all the living that she had.​

Ephesians 2:8 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:​

Hebrews 5:1 1 For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins:​

Hebrews 8:3-4 3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer. 4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:​

Hebrews 9:9 9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;​

Hebrews 11:4 4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.​

Revelation 11:10 10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.​

 

[genuineoriginal]

Romans 6:23 KJV For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Memorize the word "but"-wages, i.e., that which you earn, is contrasted with a gift, i.e., by definition, that which you do not earn.

Don't confuse wages (a debt that must be paid) with merit (state of worthiness).

We cannot obligate God to save us, no matter what we believe, say, or do.
The only people that will be saved are the ones that God decides merit (are worthy of) it.

 

[john w]

Don't confuse wages (a debt that must be paid) with merit (state of worthiness).

We cannot obligate God to save us, no matter what we believe, say, or do.
The only people that will be saved are the ones that God decides merit (are worthy of) it.

No, the word "but"-wages, i.e., that which you earn, is contrasted with a gift, i.e., by definition, that which you do not earn.


Obligate God, you muse? That's a tired cliche, sophistry. Look, deceiver-the LORD God made a promise, to save those, who, by faith, trust in the dbr as the only solution to the sin/sins issue. He is faithful, when man is not, to keep his promise, not out of an obligation, which is the definition of "wage," but as a gift, not because of the merits of the recipient(s), us, but because of the merits of the Lord Jesus Christ.


You just make things up, redefine biblical terms, after smoking a little haseesh.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The gift is a special kind of gift, a gift offered to God.

That "gift" is not the gift in view here because it has nothing to do with a gift offered to God:

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph.2:8-9).​

The "gift" is contrasted with "works" so both are in reference to man and not God.

 

[genuineoriginal]

No, the word "but"-wages, i.e., that which you earn, is contrasted with a gift, i.e., by definition, that which you do not earn.

Wages are what the person hiring another is obligated to pay him.

Obligate God, you muse? That's a tired cliche, sophistry. Look, deceiver-the LORD God made a promise, to save those, who, by faith, trust in the dbr as the only solution to the sin/sins issue. He is faithful, when man is not, to keep his promise, not out of an obligation, which is the definition of "wage," but as a gift, not because of the merits of the recipient(s), us, but because of the merits of the Lord Jesus Christ.

You just turned God's promise into an obligation to pay you salvation as a wage for you trusting in the death/burial/resurrection as a solution to your sin.

Paul tried and tried to explain how we could not obligate God into paying us salvation.
The unlearned and unstable wrest Paul's words into God will gift us salvation no matter what we do, as long as we assume He will just clean up our mess for us.

 

[genuineoriginal]

That "gift" is not the gift in view here because it has nothing to do with a gift offered to God:

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph.2:8-9).​

The "gift" is contrasted with "works" so both are in reference to man and not God.

Check out the Greek word translated as "gift" and try to explain how it meaning an "offering unto God" fits into your interpretation.

This passage is saying that when God is pleased (by grace) with our faith (through faith) then He will save us (are ye saved).
This passage is saying that our salvation is a gift God is offering unto Himself (it is the gift of God).
This passage is saying that we are not the ones giving this gift of our salvation unto God (and that not of yourselves).
This passage is saying that we cannot gain our salvation through any of our deeds (Not of works, lest any man should boast)

 

[john w]

Check out the Greek word translated as "gift" and try to explain how it meaning an "offering unto God" fits into your interpretation.

This passage is saying that when God is pleased (by grace) with our faith (through faith) then He will save us (are ye saved).
This passage is saying that our salvation is a gift God is offering unto Himself (it is the gift of God).
This passage is saying that we are not the ones giving this gift of our salvation unto God (and that not of yourselves).
This passage is saying that we cannot gain our salvation through any of our deeds (Not of works, lest any man should boast)

Stuff your "the Greek word," poser. Just whom do you think you are speaking to on TOL? Your Aunt Bessy? You know no "the Greek," cannot read it, cannot speak it, cannot understand it, cannot write it, and would not know the difference between a gyros, and a "Hebrew National," and could not get a job at a "the Greek" restaurant, mopping the floor. And there is no such thing as "the Greek"-you just spammed this jazz from other sites, and thought, "Well, let me show everyone how cool I am, as I mesmerize the TOL audience with my knowledge of 'the Greek,' as I sound scholarly, and others will look up to me...It's quite an ego trip, adrenaline rush."

I/other TOL members know that you're a fraud, so that we can file you under "poser."

Check out "the English," or "the Spanish"-El Fraudo.
Can you dig it?

 

[Clete]

In other words, no matter how right I am you will never listen to the truth?

That fact that you'd characterize it that way is proof that going further is a waste of time.


It's simply that I don't waste my time discussing Christian doctrine with people I don't consider Christians. That makes sense, right? It's not like I think you're stupid or Satan incarnate or anything like that, it's simply that there is insufficient common ground on which to proceed in any direction that I'd have any reason to believe you're qualified to go in.

Discussing systematic theology with you would be like doing so with Glen Beck. Beck's a brilliant guy who, from all reports, is as friendly and pleasant a person as you'd ever want to meet. He'd be a fascinating person to discuss all kinds of things with but I'd be wasting my time trying to discuss dispensationalism with him.

If you want to discuss healthy living with the fat guy at Dunkin' Donuts, you don't start with discussing breathing techniques for marathon runners.

Clete

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

That fact that you'd characterize it that way is proof that going further is a waste of time.


It's simply that I don't waste my time discussing Christian doctrine with people I don't consider Christians. That makes sense, right? It's not like I think you're stupid or Satan incarnate or anything like that, it's simply that there is insufficient common ground on which to proceed in any direction that I'd have any reason to believe you're qualified to go in.

Discussing systematic theology with you would be like doing so with Glen Beck. Beck's a brilliant guy who, from all reports, is as friendly and pleasant a person as you'd ever want to meet. He'd be a fascinating person to discuss all kinds of things with but I'd be wasting my time trying to discuss dispensationalism with him.

If you want to discuss healthy living with the fat guy at Dunkin' Donuts, you don't start with discussing breathing techniques for marathon runners.

Clete

I have found that one can know a fellow member of the Body of Christ by what they post. If they post, 'Grace by faith' in accordance with this 'Dispensation of Grace' you can pretty well ascertain they are a 'TRUE' child of God. They MUST know how to 'Rightly Divide' the written word of God, and be indwelt, sealed and baptized into the 'Body of Christ' by the Holy Spirit.