Well, I don't think you have to be a dispenstaionalist to be a Christian but you do have to base pretty much the whole thing on the shed blood of Christ. I mean, that is sort of a bare minimum, I'd say.
Unconditional Election vs. Total Depravity
- Thread starter Clete
- Start date
Well, I don't think you have to be a dispenstaionalist to be a Christian but you do have to base pretty much the whole thing on the shed blood of Christ. I mean, that is sort of a bare minimum, I'd say.
genuineoriginal
New member
Your refusal to accept Bible believing followers of Jesus as Christians does not make sense.
Have you taken any time to consider why there is no common ground between the beliefs of the first century Christians and modern day Christians?
Considering that my walk with Jesus began with Dispensationalism until I found a better way, I don't consider it a waste of my time to try to help anyone to see the problems with that modern twisting of scripture.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
No, here is what John was preaching about the Lord Jesus' appearance:
"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is" (1 Jn.3:2).
Those who received John's epistles were taught that they might well be alive when the Lord appears--"when he shall appear...we shall see him as he is."
They were also taught that "when he shall appear... we shall be like him."
This will happen when the Lord descends from heaven and the living saints will put on glorious bodies just like the body of the Lord Jesus. The events of which are spoken of at 1 John 3:2 by John can only be in regard to the rapture spoken of here by Paul:
"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed" (1 Cor.15:51-52).
This will happen when the Lord descends from heaven and the living saints will put on glorious bodies just like the body of the Lord Jesus.
According to Paul Sadler, the past President of the Berean Bible Society, only the members of the Body of Christ will be raptured:
"The 'secret' resurrection that will take place at the Rapture should never be confused with the 'first' resurrection at the Second Coming of Christ. Those who rightly divide the Word of truth now see that only the members of the Body of Christ will be raised at the Rapture" [emphasis mine] (Sadler, Exploring the Unsearchable Riches of Christ [Stephens Point, WI: Worzalla Publishing Co., 1993], 167).
David lived under the law and he was saved by grace through faith, just like all of the others who were saved while living under the law:
"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).
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genuineoriginal
New member
I obviously was not speaking to you.
Please learn to write in English instead of gibberish.
Neither did you. So stop trying to move the goalposts, and listen to what scripture says.
How about "do not worship idols"?
Paul thought that Jesus was not the Messiah.
The Jews that came to believe were believing in Jesus, and therefore Paul justified his actions by taking the position that they were committing idol worship. Which, under the Mosaic law, was punishable by death.
Paul (Saul, at the time) was zealous for the law.
“If you hear someone in one of your cities, which the Lord your God gives you to dwell in, saying,‘Corrupt men have gone out from among you and enticed the inhabitants of their city, saying, “Let us go and serve other gods”’—which you have not known—then you shall inquire, search out, and ask diligently. And if it is indeed true and certain that such an abomination was committed among you,you shall surely strike the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, utterly destroying it, all that is in it and its livestock—with the edge of the sword.And you shall gather all its plunder into the middle of the street, and completely burn with fire the city and all its plunder, for the Lord your God. It shall be a heap forever; it shall not be built again.So none of the accursed things shall remain in your hand, that the Lord may turn from the fierceness of His anger and show you mercy, have compassion on you and multiply you, just as He swore to your fathers,because you have listened to the voice of the Lord your God, to keep all His commandments which I command you today, to do what is right in the eyes of the Lord your God. - Deuteronomy 13:12-18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy13:12-18&version=NKJV
Appeal to incredulity is a fallacy. Would you like to try to refute what I claimed and provided evidence for?
More stock, droid sound bytes, cliches. You're a poser, fraud-even you know it, alleged "the Greek" con artist.
genuineoriginal
New member
Do you know why Paul/Saul was zealous for the law?
It is important, because it is the reason Paul/Saul was found worthy of being spoken to by Jesus on the road to Damascus.
Romans 8:28 28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. |
glorydaz
Well-known member
Really? Paul was like the Jews who put Jesus on the Cross.
He would have been amongst those here.
Matthew 23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
Matthew 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
Matthew 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
Because he was a Jew... I mean, seriously, what kind of a question is that?
Um... No one said it wasn't...
Saul was worthy of death, nothing more.
God chose to use Saul for no other reason than to use him to teach grace to Gentiles because Israel, as a whole, had rejected Him.
Cherry picking verses isn't a good idea.
This verse is talking about the organism called the Body of Christ. Before Paul was saved, there WAS NO BODY OF CHRIST.
genuineoriginal
New member
Paul would also have been among these:
John 3:1-2 1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: 2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. |
Acts 5:34-35,38-39 34 Then stood there up one in the council, a Pharisee, named Gamaliel, a doctor of the law, had in reputation among all the people, and commanded to put the apostles forth a little space; 35 And said unto them, Ye men of Israel, take heed to yourselves what ye intend to do as touching these men. 38 And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: 39 But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God. |
Here is what Paul says about the reasons for his actions in his own words:
Acts 22:3-4 3 I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day. 4 And I persecuted this way unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women. |
Paul did not persecute the Christians because he was zealous towards the law, Paul persecuted the Christians because he was zealous towards God.
Paul was chosen because he was zealous towards God.
genuineoriginal
New member
If you believed that, you would stop doing it.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Zeal?
The scribes and pharisees had zeal for God, as well.
They had so much zeal for God that they crucified their own Messiah when He came.
Romans 10:1-3
1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
It is this silly comment of yours that makes no sense.
Whether I have or not has nothing to do with what I'm interested in discussing with you on this thread.
I didn't say it was.
I said that it is a waste of my time to discuss dispensational theology with you. I'm not at all concerned about your time. It is my time that I put a premium on, not yours. You do whatever you think is right. If you want to discuss "a better way" with dispensationalists, have at it.
Personally, I'm not interested.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
No, here is what John was preaching about the Lord Jesus' appearance:
"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is" (1 Jn.3:2).
Those who received John's epistles were taught that they might well be alive when the Lord appears--"when he shall appear...we shall see him as he is."
They were also taught that "when he shall appear... we shall be like him."
This will happen when the Lord descends from heaven and the living saints will put on glorious bodies just like the body of the Lord Jesus. The events of which are spoken of at 1 John 3:2 by John can only be in regard to the rapture spoken of here by Paul:
"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed" (1 Cor.15:51-52).
This will happen when the Lord descends from heaven and the living saints will put on glorious bodies just like the body of the Lord Jesus.
According to Paul Sadler, the past President of the Berean Bible Society, only the members of the Body of Christ will be raptured:
"The 'secret' resurrection that will take place at the Rapture should never be confused with the 'first' resurrection at the Second Coming of Christ. Those who rightly divide the Word of truth now see that only the members of the Body of Christ will be raised at the Rapture" [emphasis mine] (Sadler, Exploring the Unsearchable Riches of Christ [Stephens Point, WI: Worzalla Publishing Co., 1993], 167).
David lived under the law and he was saved by grace through faith, just like all of the others who were saved while living under the law:
"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).
ttruscott
Well-known member
I would suggest rather that the gift of our salvation is that we have done nothing to earn it in our sinful human lives even though HE gives it to us to fulfill HIS promise to us of election to heaven to be HIS bride BY the salvation found in HIS Son if we should ever need it.
beloved57
Well-known member
See man by nature , his mind is naturally opposed and at enmity against God, so says the scripture Rom 8:7
7 [FONT="]Because[/FONT] the carnal mind is enmity against God:[FONT="] for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.[/FONT]
[FONT="]Please understand its enmity against the True God of scripture. Man naturally may be reconciled to a god, the god of his own darkened understanding, but Paul speaks here of the True God. The carnal mind is simply any person who hasnt been born again, they're in the flesh.
This proves the total depravity of man by nature, where his mind is in reference to the True God ![/FONT]
7 [FONT="]Because[/FONT] the carnal mind is enmity against God:[FONT="] for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.[/FONT]
[FONT="]Please understand its enmity against the True God of scripture. Man naturally may be reconciled to a god, the god of his own darkened understanding, but Paul speaks here of the True God. The carnal mind is simply any person who hasnt been born again, they're in the flesh.
This proves the total depravity of man by nature, where his mind is in reference to the True God ![/FONT]
beloved57
Well-known member
Vain philosophy no where found in scripture.
Clete, You do not understand or appreciate the basic Bible doctrines about God and His glory.
Many will agree with your argument which does not make it valid. May God open your eyes and heart to see the truth.
Multitudes of Christians and theologians exalt man above God today when they seek to impugn the truth of God concerning election, predestination and justice.
Many will agree with your argument which does not make it valid. May God open your eyes and heart to see the truth.
Multitudes of Christians and theologians exalt man above God today when they seek to impugn the truth of God concerning election, predestination and justice.
Bold words from someone who hardly knows what Clete believes.
Have you ever considered that maybe it's you that needs your eyes and heart opened?
No, actually, they don't. And you would be hard pressed to establish that.
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