Unconditional Election vs. Total Depravity

MennoSota

New member
I have debated Calvinism for decades.

There is not one single syllable of Calvinism's distinctive doctrines anywhere in the Bible.

That'll be the last time I repeat that on this thread. If you want to make a biblical argument for some particular Calvinist doctrine, I invite you to start your own thread where I'll gleefully crush your arguments to powder.

This thread, however, is about Spurgeon, one of the most famous Calvinist in history, teaching that people are sovereign over their own reprobation, in direct conflict with not only what Calvin himself taught but also with normal Calvinist doctrine (i.e. with the rest of his own doctrine).

If you don't want to discuss that then get off this thread.

Clete
Your debate is between your ears, Clete.
Reformed theology is scripture.
The five points of "Calvinism" were created by others, not Calvin. The five points were created in response to the five points of the Remonstrants (Arminians). That being said, you seem stuck on the fact that we are corrupt in our nature, God chooses according to his sovereign decree, God's atonement for sin is only given to those whom he chooses to give it, God knows those whom he has chosen and he will not lose one, we recognize those whom God chooses by their perseverance in faith.
You seem to think these things are not in scripture. Perhaps you should read the Bible rather than scour for quotes that you can't grasp, but don't like.
 

MennoSota

New member
By the way, did anyone else notice the instant contradiction in this post that consisted of all of two whole sentences!

Make a baseless and totally unsupported accusation and then say that saying it doesn't make it so.

How is it possible that anyone can do that?

:rotfl:
You asked, I answered.
 

genuineoriginal

New member
There are none who are worthy (Rom. 3:23), at least not in the manner you mean it! Paul's statement to the Thessalonians is something of a figure of speach. Taken the way you intend, stands Paul's ministry on it's head and turns the gospel of grace into a gospel of law.
What you call the "gospel of grace" is just a renamed version of the Calvinist/Reformed belief of Sola Gratia, which is only half of what Paul taught about salvation.

Sola gratia

During the Reformation, Lutheran and Reformed theologians generally believed the Roman Catholic view of the means of salvation to be a mixture of reliance upon the grace of God, and confidence in the merits of one's own works performed in love, pejoratively called Legalism. These Reformers posited that salvation is entirely comprehended in God's gifts (that is, God's act of free grace), dispensed by the Holy Spirit according to the redemptive work of Jesus Christ alone.

Consequently, they argued that a sinner is not accepted by God on account of the change wrought in the believer by God's grace, and indeed, that the believer is accepted without any regard for the merit of his works—for no one deserves salvation, a concept that some take to the extreme of Antinomianism, a doctrine that argues that if someone is saved, he/she has no need to live a holy life, given that salvation is already "in the bag".

It is also linked to the five points of Calvinism.


If (when) I make it to heaven, it will not be because I am worthy of it
If God does not find you worthy of being in His kingdom, you will not be in it.

but because [JESUS is worthy] and I have been hidden in Him.
No, you do not enter the kingdom merely because Jesus is worthy and you are claiming His actions as your own.

It isn't about what I do but about what I believe about what He has done for me
It is about both what you do and what you believe.
Without both, you can't enter into the kingdom.

The effort for today's Christian is not in doing good works but in believing the gospel. The good works will come but not by effort.
A Christian must do good works because that is his duty to his Lord, Jesus Christ.
A Christian who expects Jesus to do it all for him is called a wicked servant by Jesus (Luke 19:22).
 

genuineoriginal

New member
Schreiner recognized that what is said in the following verse by Paul is "hypothetical," meaning that it is possible that it can happen as stated:

"Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life" (Ro.2:6-7).

Schreiner admits that it is possible that a person can receive eternal life by his own "deeds" or "works."

And since it is possible that can only mean that a person has the "ability" to gain eternal life by his own works. After all, since it is possible then it cannot be denied that every single person has the ability to do it. If you want to argue that a person does not have the ability then it would be "impossible" for him to attain eternal life by his works. And even Schreiner admits that it is possible.
From Genesis to Revelation, there is a consistent message that God favors the righteous and hates the wicked.
Since the Lord Jesus was made like His brethren "in all things" then the fact that he lived a sinless life proves that all people have the "ability" to live a sinless life.

But sooner or later every person decides to go his own way instead of the Lord's way and ends up sinning. And that sin cannot be blamed on Adam or anyone else.
It is a good thing that God's standard for us is not perfect sinlessness.
God's standard for us is righteousness and repentance from wickedness.
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
Your debate is between your ears, Clete.
Heaven forbid that you showed up on a theology debate forum to debate theology!

Reformed theology is scripture.
Liar.

The five points of "Calvinism" were created by others, not Calvin.
Who cares? Did anyone ask this question? Did I suggest otherwise?

NO!

The five points were created in response to the five points of the Remonstrants (Arminians).
So what?

I'm certainly no Arminian.

That being said, you seem stuck on the fact that we are corrupt in our nature, God chooses according to his sovereign decree, God's atonement for sin is only given to those whom he chooses to give it, God knows those whom he has chosen and he will not lose one, we recognize those whom God chooses by their perseverance in faith.
Such a god is unust, by definition, which everyone understands intuitively and is precisely why Calvinist feel the need to give lip service to free will, just as you and Spurgeon have done on this thread, which you don't want to discuss.

You seem to think these things are not in scripture.
As if it were a matter of opinion.

Perhaps you should read the Bible rather than scour for quotes that you can't grasp, but don't like.
This is a debate forum, moron! When people find something they wish to discuss and/or to use in order to make a point, this is one of several places they might come to start such a conversation. If you don't want to participate then leave? See if I care.

In fact, so far as I am concerned, you are gone.

:wave2:

Somebody get this troll off my thread!


Clete
 

Grosnick Marowbe

New member
Hall of Fame
Heaven forbid that you showed up on a theology debate forum to debate theology!


Liar.


Who cares? Did anyone ask this question? Did I suggest otherwise?

NO!


So what?

I'm certainly no Arminian.


Such a god is unust, by definition, which everyone understands intuitively and is precisely why Calvinist feel the need to give lip service to free will, just as you and Spurgeon have done on this thread, which you don't want to discuss.


As if it were a matter of opinion.


This is a debate forum, moron! When people find something they wish to discuss and/or to use in order to make a point, this is one of several places they might come to start such a conversation. If you don't want to participate then leave? See if I care.

In fact, so far as I am concerned, you are gone.

:wave2:

Somebody get this troll off my thread!


Clete

Ask Sherman if she would kindly remove this 'character.' I'm sure she will be happy to oblige your request.
 

MennoSota

New member
Heaven forbid that you showed up on a theology debate forum to debate theology!


Liar.


Who cares? Did anyone ask this question? Did I suggest otherwise?

NO!


So what?

I'm certainly no Arminian.


Such a god is unust, by definition, which everyone understands intuitively and is precisely why Calvinist feel the need to give lip service to free will, just as you and Spurgeon have done on this thread, which you don't want to discuss.


As if it were a matter of opinion.


This is a debate forum, moron! When people find something they wish to discuss and/or to use in order to make a point, this is one of several places they might come to start such a conversation. If you don't want to participate then leave? See if I care.

In fact, so far as I am concerned, you are gone.

:wave2:

Somebody get this troll off my thread!


Clete
Clete, your response shows you have no part in Christ. Go debate with others who have no place in the Kingdom.
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
What you call the "gospel of grace" is just a renamed version of the Calvinist/Reformed belief of Sola Gratia, which is only half of what Paul taught about salvation.

Sola gratia

During the Reformation, Lutheran and Reformed theologians generally believed the Roman Catholic view of the means of salvation to be a mixture of reliance upon the grace of God, and confidence in the merits of one's own works performed in love, pejoratively called Legalism. These Reformers posited that salvation is entirely comprehended in God's gifts (that is, God's act of free grace), dispensed by the Holy Spirit according to the redemptive work of Jesus Christ alone.

Consequently, they argued that a sinner is not accepted by God on account of the change wrought in the believer by God's grace, and indeed, that the believer is accepted without any regard for the merit of his works—for no one deserves salvation, a concept that some take to the extreme of Antinomianism, a doctrine that argues that if someone is saved, he/she has no need to live a holy life, given that salvation is already "in the bag".

It is also linked to the five points of Calvinism.

So what? What does someone else's doctrinal errors have to do with my theology?

Until you quoted it, I wouldn't have even been able to tell you what "Sola Gatia" meant without looking it up.

My beliefs have NOTHING whatsoever to do with Calvinism.

Further, let's say that you are right, for the sake of argument....

I believe as do the Calvinists that God created the Heavens and the Earth and everything in them is six days. I and the Calvinists also believe that God became a man and was named Jesus and died and rose from the dead.

Does my sharing these beliefs with the Calvinist make them not so?

A guilt by association fallacy is considered a fallacy for this exact reason. Saying that my theology is similar to someone else's does nothing to either refute or establish it.

We can discuss why the "Reformation, Lutheran and Reformed theologians" as well as the Roman Catholics where all wrong on this point - all of them. If you're interested.

If God does not find you worthy of being in His kingdom, you will not be in it.
Romans 4:4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,

Galatians 2:16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
17 “But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! 18 For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19 For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.”

Galatians 3:2 2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?​

Please actually read those passages. I could just as easily quote Paul's entire collection of books. Such is the theme of his ministry.

No, you do not enter the kingdom merely because Jesus is worthy and you are claiming His actions as your own.
This doesn't even make any sense and I think it shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the gospel of grace.

I do not claim Christ's actions as my own. How would that even work?

The wages of sin is death. If/when we sin, we incur a debt that is owed to God because of justice.
God loves us very much and when sin entered the world it created a problem for God. God is uncompromisingly just and as such, He is not willing that rebelion against Him be overlook or forgiven by fiat or arbitrarily. Thus there were two options; He could destroy mankind and satisfy the demands of justice that way, or He could accept a propiciatory sacrifice instead. But where to find a sacrifice of such worth that it can pay such an enormous debt? There were none found save One. God the Son became a human being, lived a sinless life and offered that matchlessly holy and eternal life to the Father as payment of the sin debt of the whole world. The Father has accepted that offering as having met the demands of justice and He can therefore justly offer us salvation as a result.

When I accept that offer, my sinfullness, my guilt is wiped out of existence. The same offense cannot justly be punished twice. If God has accepted Christ's death on my behalf then for me to also die (spiritually) would be unjust. Thus I am declared righteous, not because Christ's actions were added to me but because His actions cancelled mine out, which only works because Christ was holy and perfectly righteous. Thus it is rightly stated that we are saved not because of our righteousness but because of His! His righteousness has thus been imputed to me by the One Who gets to judge who is and who is not righteous.

Romans 4:22 And therefore “it was accounted to him for righteousness.”
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.​

It is about both what you do and what you believe.
Without both, you can't enter into the kingdom.
You probably are not going to believe me but I understand FULLY why you believe this and likewise I fully understand where you've made an error. The difficulty is going to be in getting you to see it and to accept it once you do see it. It is a significant paradigm shift and so will not be easy to accept.

In a sentence, you have mixed two different programs for two different sets of believers. Two gospels, if you will. You are, in effect, a functioning Messianic Jew. Now, don't react too strongly to my using that term. I'm quite certain that you'd never refer to yourself in those terms and I know that there is a whole group of modern believers that go by that title. I'm not referring to them nor attempting to associate you with them. I merely mean is simply that you have, almost certainly without realizing it, mixed Paul's Gospel with Peter's. They aren't the same and they aren't compatible.

One says that we are saved without works (Romans 4) the other says the opposite (James 2). The gospel of Grace, Paul's Gospel is only found in Paul's epistles and nowhere else in the Bible. If you fail to recognize that Paul's ministry was unique and quite seperate from that of The Twelve, the inevitable result will be...

"It is about both what you do and what you believe. Without both, you can't enter into the kingdom."

Your statement is James chapter 2 in two sentences but it openly and directly contradicts not only Romans 4 but Paul's entire ministry.

A Christian must do good works because that is his duty to his Lord, Jesus Christ.
A Christian who expects Jesus to do it all for him is called a wicked servant by Jesus (Luke 19:22).

I have a prediction for you....

All of the texts that you can use to prove your position will be from anywhere in the Bible except the Pauline epistles.

Now, my having said that will naturally cause you to start looking for something somewhere between Romans 1 and the book of Philemon for something that seems to support your case. So I have to add that if you find anything at all, it'll be out of context or in some other way made to mean the something other than what it seems to say.

I can make that prediction not because I'm super smart or anything like that. It's just that its what nearly every single Christian in existence does! They do it the way you're doing it or they do the opposite of what you're doing. Either way, it's two sides of the same coin. That is to say that they read the Bible and have one or the other of two sets of proof texts for their particular doctrinal position. One group's proof texts are the other groups problem texts. The proof texts (whichever set one happens to have) are taken to mean what they seem to say while the problem texts are interpreted to mean something other than what the plain reading would seem to say (sometimes the problem texts are just ignored altogether). And the dividing line between these two groups of texts is almost always the Apostle Paul. Once set will be in his epistles while the other set comes from everywhere else throughout the New Testament and the whole bible.

So, just to give a quick example of what I mean. Let's look at the issue of forgiveness. Group 1 says that we have to forgive to be forgiven, group two says we've already been forgiven....

Group 1:
Step 1: If you forgive (present tense). (Matthew 6:12; Mark 11:25-26
Step 2: You will be forgiven (future tense). Matthew 6:14-15; 18:32-35

Group 2:
Step 1: God has forgiven you (past tense). Col. 3:13; 2:13; Eph. 4:32
Step 2: So you forgive me (present tense). Eph. 4:32; Col. 3:13

The two teachings couldn't hardly be more different and so people on one side or the other are forced to take one set of texts to mean what they say (proof texts) while the other set (problem texts) is interpreted in a manner that allows the two teaching to agree with eachother.

That is unless you accept Paul's ministry as distinct from and different than the ministry of the Twelve. Then you get to read both sets of passages and take them both to mean precisely what they seem to mean. Not only that but both sets become proof texts!

This works with nearly any doctrinal debate you can think of. Everything from whether or not works are required for salvation to when the rapture will occur to whether one can lose their salvation to wether you're supposed to eat catfish or not to almost you name it. It all hinges on Paul.


Resting in Him,
Clete


P.S. I really doubt that I need to say this to you but, just in case, please do not read any sort of "tone" into what I say in these posts. I don't know what it is about how I type these things up but I somehow seem to convey to people that I'm being aggressive or angry or mean or condiscending or whatever. No such emotion is intended, no offense of any kind is intended for that matter. This is, without exception, my absolute favorite topic to discuss. I will always allow it to take over any of my threads and I'm happy to discuss it ad nauseam with anyone who is both willing and substantively responsive.
 

john w

New member
Hall of Fame
Your debate is between your ears, Clete.
Reformed theology is scripture.
The five points of "Calvinism" were created by others, not Calvin. The five points were created in response to the five points of the Remonstrants (Arminians). That being said, you seem stuck on the fact that we are corrupt in our nature, God chooses according to his sovereign decree, God's atonement for sin is only given to those whom he chooses to give it, God knows those whom he has chosen and he will not lose one, we recognize those whom God chooses by their perseverance in faith.
You seem to think these things are not in scripture. Perhaps you should read the Bible rather than scour for quotes that you can't grasp, but don't like.

we recognize those whom God chooses by their perseverance in faith.


There you go, TOL audience; repeating, as I've been saying for years:"I know that I'm saved, cuz my lifestyle tells me so."-Calvinist


Calvinism is just another warmed-over version of Catholicism, Mormonism,........="religion"=works-based performance system, that assesses whether you are saved, or lost.
 

john w

New member
Hall of Fame
Clete, your response shows you have no part in Christ. Go debate with others who have no place in the Kingdom.

There you go, TOL audience; repeating, as I've been saying for years:"I know that I'm saved, cuz my lifestyle tells me so."-Calvinist


Calvinism is just another warmed-over version of Catholicism, Mormonism,........="religion"=works-based performance system, that assesses whether you are saved, or lost.

Go ahead and tell us, that you have always "shown," through your words, actions, that you are "part in Christ." Ever failed? So, then you are not one of "the elect," are you?


Calvinist fraud, like a dirty rat, that compares himself to other rats, and thinks, "Well, I am a bit dirty, but I am not as dirty as my fellow rats, and that I 'show' that I am 'part in Christ' more than my fellow rats, so I must be saved, one of 'the elect!'"

Wrong standard, dirty rat.
 

genuineoriginal

New member
So what? What does someone else's doctrinal errors have to do with my theology?

Until you quoted it, I wouldn't have even been able to tell you what "Sola Gatia" meant without looking it up.

My beliefs have NOTHING whatsoever to do with Calvinism.
The belief comes from the Protestant Reformation, specifically Lutheran and Reformed(Calvinist) denominations.
It has spread to most Protestant denominations, which is where you probably were taught it, even if you were not taught the name.

A guilt by association fallacy is considered a fallacy for this exact reason. Saying that my theology is similar to someone else's does nothing to either refute or establish it.
I was pointing out where the doctrine first appeared, which was about 1500 years after Jesus was crucified.
The doctrine was not held by Paul or any of the other writers of the New Testament.
Here is the only mention of Sola Gratia (faith alone) to be found in the Bible:

James 2:17
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.​


Romans 4:4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,​
Yes, you cannot obligate God to give you eternal life by merely doing those things you were commanded to do (obeying the Law).

Luke 17:9-10
9 Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not.
10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.​

God alone has to be the one to choose whether you are worthy of being in His kingdom.
 

genuineoriginal

New member
No, you do not enter the kingdom merely because Jesus is worthy and you are claiming His actions as your own.
This doesn't even make any sense and I think it shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the gospel of grace.

I do not claim Christ's actions as my own.

How would that even work?
You may not be making that claim.
There are a significant number of Protestants who claim that they are considered righteous in God's eyes because Jesus kept the Law without sin and when God looks at them He sees Jesus instead of them.


The wages of sin is death. If/when we sin, we incur a debt that is owed to God because of justice.
God loves us very much and when sin entered the world it created a problem for God. God is uncompromisingly just and as such, He is not willing that rebelion against Him be overlook or forgiven by fiat or arbitrarily.
Hold on.
God is not "uncompromisingly" just.
God compromises a lot throughout the Old Testament.
God even looks for reasons to compromise.
That is why He looks for individuals to stand up to Him and petition Him to turn aside His just wrath.

Ezekiel 22:30
30 And I sought for a man among them, that should make up the hedge, and stand in the gap before me for the land, that I should not destroy it: but I found none.​


Thus there were two options; He could destroy mankind and satisfy the demands of justice that way, or He could accept a propiciatory sacrifice instead. But where to find a sacrifice of such worth that it can pay such an enormous debt? There were none found save One. God the Son became a human being, lived a sinless life and offered that matchlessly holy and eternal life to the Father as payment of the sin debt of the whole world. The Father has accepted that offering as having met the demands of justice and He can therefore justly offer us salvation as a result.
That is not how it works.
God was looking for a reason to compromise so His just wrath could be turned aside.
Because He couldn't find any man worthy enough to do that, He sent His own Son to do it.
Jesus had His faith tried throughout His entire life, and the ultimate trial of His faith was being obedient to the command to die on the cross.

Philippians 2:7-9
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:​

This act is how Jesus bought us (redeemed us).

Galatians 3:13
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:​


When I accept that offer, my sinfullness, my guilt is wiped out of existence. The same offense cannot justly be punished twice.
Not quite.
When Jesus bought you (redeemed you), your debt transferred to Him.
You now need to pay Jesus for your debt by being a good and faithful servant to Him instead of paying the wages of sin to God.
 

genuineoriginal

New member
you have, almost certainly without realizing it, mixed Paul's Gospel with Peter's. They aren't the same and they aren't compatible.
If you can't see that Paul and Peter are teaching the same gospel, you are misunderstanding Paul.

2 Peter 3:13-16
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Peter is specifically speaking about the things Paul wrote that have become known as the "gospel of grace" without works.

One says that we are saved without works (Romans 4)
See, you are misunderstanding what Romans 4 says.

the other says the opposite (James 2).
James was easier to understand than Paul.

The gospel of Grace, Paul's Gospel is only found in Paul's epistles and nowhere else in the Bible.
If that is true, then Paul is a false preacher and everyone that believes in Paul alone is damned.
However, if Paul is not a false preacher, then what Paul preached has to be reconciled with the rest of scripture and not sliced and diced to make a new gospel.

I have a prediction for you....

All of the texts that you can use to prove your position will be from anywhere in the Bible except the Pauline epistles.
The main reason for that is that Paul was easily misunderstood by those that did not have Paul's knowledge of the Old Testament and of historical Jewish beliefs and the first century Jewish beliefs.

Now, my having said that will naturally cause you to start looking for something somewhere between Romans 1 and the book of Philemon for something that seems to support your case. So I have to add that if you find anything at all, it'll be out of context or in some other way made to mean the something other than what it seems to say.
My prediction is that you will reject what Paul says because it doesn't match what you are expecting Paul to say.

It's just that its what nearly every single Christian in existence does! They do it the way you're doing it or they do the opposite of what you're doing. Either way, it's two sides of the same coin. That is to say that they read the Bible and have one or the other of two sets of proof texts for their particular doctrinal position. One group's proof texts are the other groups problem texts. The proof texts (whichever set one happens to have) are taken to mean what they seem to say while the problem texts are interpreted to mean something other than what the plain reading would seem to say (sometimes the problem texts are just ignored altogether). And the dividing line between these two groups of texts is almost always the Apostle Paul. Once set will be in his epistles while the other set comes from everywhere else throughout the New Testament and the whole bible.
That is interesting.
I spent several years reading the entire scripture and rejected proof text after proof text simply because it did not match what the messages that all of scripture were saying.

You, rely on proof texts within Paul's writings.
I am certain that the proof texts you use to justify splitting Paul off from the rest of the Bible include these passages:

2 Timothy 2:15
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.​


Galatians 1:8
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.​


P.S. I really doubt that I need to say this to you but, just in case, please do not read any sort of "tone" into what I say in these posts. I don't know what it is about how I type these things up but I somehow seem to convey to people that I'm being aggressive or angry or mean or condiscending or whatever. No such emotion is intended, no offense of any kind is intended for that matter. This is, without exception, my absolute favorite topic to discuss. I will always allow it to take over any of my threads and I'm happy to discuss it ad nauseam with anyone who is both willing and substantively responsive.
No worries.
I get passionate about this topic, so I may sound aggressive, angry, mean or condescending as well.
Please don't take me being passionate about the doctrinal differences as a personal attack when I am trying to address the flaws in doctrinal beliefs.
I do learn a lot from these debates and have adjusted my beliefs when I find that scripture supports another belief better than the one I have.
 

ttruscott

Well-known member
God chooses whom he will ransom, by His Sovereign will.

BUT you just won't accept that HIS Sovereign will is to chose those who put their faith in HIS claims to be our GOD and in HIS Son for our salvation from any sin is THE REASON FOR who HIS sovereign will chooses!!! Why is that? Sovereign means HE does what HE wants, NOT that HE has no reason for HIS choice!!!
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
BUT you just won't accept that HIS Sovereign will is to chose those who put their faith in HIS claims to be our GOD and in HIS Son for our salvation from any sin is THE REASON FOR who HIS sovereign will chooses!!! Why is that? Sovereign means HE does what HE wants, NOT that HE has no reason for HIS choice!!!
That, unfortunately is not what 'soveriegn' means in the mind of a Calvinist. In their minds it means that God is in direct meticulous control of every event that happens.

In the minds of normal people, one is 'soveriegn' over their car because they not only own the car but they control when it runs, how fast it goes and in what direction and when it stops and gets turned off. That isn't half way good enough for the Calvinist. The Calvinist would be disgusted by such a notion of sovereignty. A Calvinist wouldn't consider you soveriegn over a car unless you were actively pushing the pistons up and down by your own power, actively causing the oil to flow through the engine, actively causing the oxygen in the combustion chamber to combine in various ways with the carbon and hydrogen atoms in the fuel and forcing the resulting gasses out the tail pipe. You're not soveriegn over your car unless you are deciding which microscopic particles of rubber are coming off your tires and when they are to come to rest in just the right spot on the side of the road as you drive by. You're not sovereign over your car unless you've decided in advance which pieces of glass will slice through your passager's face during the major accident you're going to have in July of 2022.
 
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