ECT True or False question (Billy Graham)

[turbosixx]

Luke 23:40-43

AMR has said it thus: Faith alone saves, a saving faith is not alone.

For me, the real question is this: Are we 'partly' involved in our spiritual growth? I used to fret and was likely on almost the same ground as you at one time. Ephesians 2:10 Proverbs 16:9 1 Corinthians 4:7, John 15:5 Colossians 1:17

So, we are 'recreated for good works.' My question another way: Who's? I think a desire to be responsible is a good thing BUT I think it still not fully hidden with Christ in God at that point, that we are holding reserve of identity and thus, I began to greatly empathize with those who believed monergism (God alone salvation, God alone workmanship).
There are scriptures that talk about our needs to follow Him and it is important that we heed scripture. The only thing I'm ever against is any kind of attachment to it as 1) a need for salvation and 2) a work that isn't completely in His hands.

Example: Some of my kids need more hands on parenting than the others. "If" I'm a good parent Proverbs 22:6, I'll do all things that ensure my kids are raised well. Where does my analogy/example break down? This is important. No verse above is as far as God's ownership of us Romans 9:7-29 likened to a parents 'ownership' of his/her children. My kids can fairly well prosper without me, none of us can do 'any-one-thing' John 15:5 Colossians 1:17 without God. Any self-will in relation to that has me always running back to 1 Corinthians 4:7: What do I have that isn't His? Just my sinful desires and autonomy. If I see my 'responsibility' as a gift from God, I've missed Genesis 3 'like God.' Denying myself and taking up my cross is self-denial and no longer autonomous and self-responsible. Galatians 2:20

Now, I realize you might disagree on some of this, but I think explaining it is important. It was for me. I wanted to know scriptures. 1 John 4:18 was pivotal. I had ALWAYS had 'responsibility' and 'fear and trembling' in working out my salvation. I still do, because I am in the hands of God Almighty, one way or the other. Catholics tend to read this verse and think we can have no assurance of salvation, thus. It is very much a Christianity that is caught on the side of fear. Real growth doesn't come from spats with God Hebrews 12:6-8 but with a wholesome relationship. I believe we 'can' stifle growth, but I do not believe those in Christ can stop growth because it is our Lord Jesus Christ's work Ephesians 2:10. I also believe the more malleable we are, reading His word and spending time with Him daily, causes us to be wise and more effective. The benefit? That God is seen more clearly and we are more effective in our ministry and witness. We are a body, so MOST benefit this side of heaven, is for us and the rest of the Body. John 13:34,35

For me, I don't think one who is Christ's, can help but express the Lord Jesus Christ who is inside of Him. The 'desire' is placed in us. I don't think I 'can' encourage another to love the Lord Jesus Christ much more than He already does except by him/her seeing something more of Him in me.

Because we are in Christ, life and love are our future. We ARE one body as such. We ARE in Christ already. 1 John 3:2


The language itself implies that the true Christian will be doing works. I suggest again, the wording does not say we are saved without doing any works of our own. The next verse confirms that fact.
Eph. 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.




Ideas? Why does baptism carry these “ideas”? What does the bible state, not ideas, about baptism?


When Paul asked the question, “or were you baptized in the name of Paul?”, he’s talking to those who had been baptized and excluding those who had not. It’s clear that they all had been baptized into someone’s name. We know that name is Jesus. First, because that is how Jesus said to make Christians, baptizing them in his name, Matt. 28:19,20. Second, we see those preaching the gospel doing just that, Acts 2:38; Acts 19:5.

If we look at that last conversion where Paul gives them the gifts of the Holy Spirit, he recognizes them as believers but he knows they haven’t been baptized properly (in the name of Jesus). When he finds out they haven’t been given the gifts of the Holy Spirit, notice the question he asks them. “Unto what then were ye baptized?” Why would he ask this question if the Holy Spirit does the baptizing at belief? He sees why they didn’t receive the gifts because they hadn’t been properly baptized. He doesn’t preach them the gospel. He doesn’t question their belief. He only baptizes them properly before he gives them the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Thanks for your great reply.

Here is my problem. Before Paul even left the earth he told elders of the church, 29 I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; 30 and from among your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things, to draw away the disciples after them. 31 Therefore be alert,
Imagine thousands of years later how twisted it will be. It's not hard to imagine. From one book of God's word we have hundreds if not thousands of different ideas. We should all agree. The bible isn't that hard to understand. Has God given us a book we are incapable of understanding alike? I think not.

It makes more sense to me to accept what it plainly says and that all the scriptures should be in harmony.

Just as Satan perverted God's simple instructions in the garden, he continues to do so. God himself said, Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved.
Today, Satan has managed to make this a false statement.



Faith alone saves, a saving faith is not alone.
This is a contradicting statement. It should faith saves and faith is not alone. The bible faith alone is dead. I trust God's word.

 

[Lon]

Thanks for your great reply.

It was my endeavor. :e4e:

Here is my problem. Before Paul even left the earth he told elders of the church, 29 I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; 30 and from among your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things, to draw away the disciples after them. 31 Therefore be alert,
Imagine thousands of years later how twisted it will be. It's not hard to imagine. From one book of God's word we have hundreds if not thousands of different ideas. We should all agree. The bible isn't that hard to understand. Has God given us a book we are incapable of understanding alike? I think not.

It makes more sense to me to accept what it plainly says and that all the scriptures should be in harmony.

Just as Satan perverted God's simple instructions in the garden, he continues to do so. God himself said, Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved.
Today, Satan has managed to make this a false statement.

Paul even warns the Galatians not to be bewitched. It don't think 'bewitching' was a danger for Paul, however. IOW, it was for those who weren't grounded and yes, still a concern but in a body, we have protection as well as protection from our Shepherd.

Faith alone saves, a saving faith is not alone.
This is a contradicting statement. It should faith saves and faith is not alone. The bible faith alone is dead. I trust God's word.

It isn't contradictory. What it means is that 'with faith' you have a whole lot from God accompanying it, 'after' or coinciding with salvation.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

I can't read any more of your drivel. It's sad you don't give God the glory for giving us the desire to do His good pleasure. You keep showing me that you are simply a glory stealer like the rest of the workers around here. :nono:

Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.​

As I've mentioned on several occasions, I placed "Danoh" on Ignore, long ago. It's an "Exercise in Futility" to try and communicate with this "Character."

 

[glorydaz]

As I've mentioned on several occasions, I placed "Danoh" on Ignore, long ago. It's an "Exercise in Futility" to try and communicate with this "Character."

He reminds me of that little brat kid who runs his mouth and then jumps in to kick the kid that is getting beat up by the other guy. Sad little fella.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

He reminds me of that little brat kid who runs his mouth and then jumps in to kick the kid that is getting beat up by the other guy. Sad little fella.

Indeed.

 

[Danoh]

I can't read any more of your drivel. It's sad you don't give God the glory for giving us the desire to do His good pleasure. You keep showing me that you are simply a glory stealer like the rest of the workers around here. :nono:

Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.​

I've been reflecting on that post ever since I posted it.

I was overly harsh.

As for the balance of your post, I still do not agree with you - if it were automatic Paul would not invest so much time repeatedly reminding them of what their focus is to be.

Exactly what he is doing once more, in the very passage you just now cited.

That is the very sense he began that chapter in - reminding them.

Philippians 2:1 If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies, 2:2 Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind. 2:3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.

It is not an automatic desire.

Speaking of those kinds of REMINDERS - of what one's focus is to be towards one's being able to work out (manifest) this salvation in us that God is working in us during this Mystery age...

Again, my apology to you for my having been so harsh towards you.

Rom. 5: 6-8.

 

[God's Truth]

It was my endeavor. :e4e:


Paul even warns the Galatians not to be bewitched. It don't think 'bewitching' was a danger for Paul, however. IOW, it was for those who weren't grounded and yes, still a concern but in a body, we have protection as well as protection from our Shepherd.



It isn't contradictory. What it means is that 'with faith' you have a whole lot from God accompanying it, 'after' or coinciding with salvation.

Did God really say faith alone is dead? YES.

Did God really say faith alone cannot save? YES.

 

[God's Truth]

Luke 23:40-43

AMR has said it thus: Faith alone saves, a saving faith is not alone.

...and you see NOTHING wrong with saying the opposite of what God says?

You not only see nothing wrong with saying the opposite of God, you actually exalt that falseness.

 

[God's Truth]

Ideas? Why does baptism carry these “ideas”? What does the bible state, not ideas, about baptism?

God wants us to have a water baptism ceremony. Is it that hard to do? Do it by yourself if you have to, or your wife, or whomever if you need help being lifted out of the water from your bathtub or pool, or a lake or whatever.

Sometimes we just have to speak something aloud, and it really does matter to promise aloud to God that you will die to the sins of the world and live to please Jesus.

When Paul asked the question, “or were you baptized in the name of Paul?”, he’s talking to those who had been baptized and excluding those who had not. It’s clear that they all had been baptized into someone’s name. We know that name is Jesus. First, because that is how Jesus said to make Christians, baptizing them in his name, Matt. 28:19,20. Second, we see those preaching the gospel doing just that, Acts 2:38; Acts 19:5.

Paul is rebuking people for playing favorites with the apostles...I was baptized by Peter...Oh but I was baptized by Apollos...etc. No one was saying oh but I was baptized by Paul, because Paul didn't do that many water baptisms and he was glad no one was saying that about him. Paul was exposing how worldly people were when they were water baptized. It does NOT mean water baptism is wrong.

If we look at that last conversion where Paul gives them the gifts of the Holy Spirit, he recognizes them as believers but he knows they haven’t been baptized properly (in the name of Jesus). When he finds out they haven’t been given the gifts of the Holy Spirit, notice the question he asks them. “Unto what then were ye baptized?” Why would he ask this question if the Holy Spirit does the baptizing at belief?

They were baptized by John the baptizer. The Holy Spirit was not given yet.

 

[God's Truth]

This is your exact wording and very similar to what I hear others say.

Could you please point me to a verse where an inspired writer speaks of "Jesus’ work". For example, like this passage that clearly speaks of our work.
I Cor. 15:58 Therefore, my beloved brothers, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that in the Lord your labor is not in vain.

I read where we are told about Jesus' sacrifice but I'm unaware of an inspired writer telling us we do not need works because of Jesus' "work". That is what people are preaching today. You don't have to work because he did it all. I don't see that in scripture.
For example, does this passage say that we are saved "without" doing works? I say no. It says "not a result of works" or KJV "Not of works".
I agree 100%, our works cannot save us! The question I have is, can we be saved without works?

The language itself implies that the true Christian will be doing works. I suggest again, the wording does not say we are saved without doing any works of our own. The next verse confirms that fact.
Eph. 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.


Ideas? Why does baptism carry these “ideas”? What does the bible state, not ideas, about baptism?

See what confusion and uncertainty people such as yourself bring to the truth.

You say we are not saved by works, then you preach that we have to obey.

We are saved by obeying Jesus. His works are easy and light and not burdensome.

The 'not of by works' Paul is speaking about are the ceremonial/purification works of the law, like circumcision and the sacrifice of animals.

Jesus saves us all on his own and he saves those he chooses to save; those people Jesus chooses to save are those who obey him.

Paul is NOT saying believe and be careful not to obey or say you did! Paul is saying faith without the purification works.

 

[drbrumley]

Do you believe Jesus' word is just for the Jews and not for the gentiles?

You are reading other people's mail.

 

[glorydaz]

As for the balance of your post, I still do not agree with you - if it were automatic Paul would not invest so much time repeatedly reminding them of what their focus is to be.

It is not an automatic desire.

God gives us the desire...faithfully without fail. God even prods and provokes us to DO His good pleasure. "Both to will and to do His good pleasure".

Paul reminds us, as you rightly said, of why we are to bring the results of that desire out where it can be seen by the world. Paul's words are being used to prod us and provoke us to this very day. Are they not?

Phil. 2:13-15 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. 14 Do all things without murmurings and disputings: 15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;​

He even reminds us as we go throughout the day He is so faithful.

 

[turbosixx]

See what confusion and uncertainty people such as yourself bring to the truth.

You say we are not saved by works, then you preach that we have to obey.

My point is, what works can I do to earn salvation?

We are saved by obeying Jesus. His works are easy and light and not burdensome.

I agree

The 'not of by works' Paul is speaking about are the ceremonial/purification works of the law, like circumcision and the sacrifice of animals.

I absolutely agree. This is where a lot of people go wrong, they think Paul is talking about works in general.

Jesus saves us all on his own and he saves those he chooses to save; those people Jesus chooses to save are those who obey him.

Again, I agree.

 

[genuineoriginal]

You are reading other people's mail.

Maybe you forgot to tell Paul that the scriptures were not to be read by us?

2 Timothy 3:16 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:​

 

[Danoh]

God gives us the desire...faithfully without fail. God even prods and provokes us to DO His good pleasure. "Both to will and to do His good pleasure".

Paul reminds us, as you rightly said, of why we are to bring the results of that desire out where it can be seen by the world. Paul's words are being used to prod us and provoke us to this very day. Are they not?

Phil. 2:13-15 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. 14 Do all things without murmurings and disputings: 15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;​

He even reminds us as we go throughout the day He is so faithful.

I related the following account on here, long ago.

I had just led someone to the Lord through the gospel of our salvation.

I then checked to make sure he had that right, just in case he might later encounter some legalist worker bee.

After I informed him that was what I was about to do, I then asked him 'so now what happens when you sin?'

He responded with "well, Christ died for our sins, so that means I'm forgiven."

But then, just as quickly, a devious smile came over his face (kind of like that devious look of Puddy Tat's, when he looks over at a seemingly helpless Tweety Bird, and licks his chops in anticipation of what he misjudged will be an easy meal).

At which point the guy deviously said to me, "wait a minute, that means I can do whatever I want..."

I thought to myself 'okay, he gets it: he gets eternal security; he gets that grace is unmerited...now it is clearly time for some Romans 6...'

Romans 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

And we went into that...

For the Scripture does not assume that the love of Christ is going to constrain anyone to either trust in Him for their salvation, nor to express gratitude towards Him for said free gift in their walk and or service.

It just does not. As it should be.

2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

The Corinthians are one of the best examples in all of Scripture that a grace that is unable ri risk its being repeatedly abused, is not the umerited grace of God in His Son.

1 Corinthians 1:4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ; 1:5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge; 1:6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you: 1:7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: 1:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord. 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. 1:11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.

The fact is that many a Believer is an ungrateful Believer.

Due to their prior upbringing.

To how strong that might be in each of them whether for good or bad.

And due to the fact that until the Believer gets in and stays in His Word, allowing it to renew his or her mind to the mind of Christ, each Believer remains conformed unto this world's fallen value system of good and bad, and to one extent or another, and that is worse in some than it is in others.

In contrast to the automatically ungrateful Corinthians were the following...

1 Thessalonians 1:2 We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers; 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father; 1:4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

The guy I mentioned above, had been the leader of a street gang.

All he had known was to assert his will on others under the threat of a very real violence his having risen to that leadership by force had long since been his life.

All he had known was to take from others.

He still struggles with that to this day.

He still struggles with...

Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

These issues are different in degree for each Believer.

Thank God then for Rom. 5: 6-8 - in each our stead.

 

[genuineoriginal]

My point is, what works can I do to earn salvation?

Paul fought this heresy from the Pharisees from the time he converted until his death.

People do not earn salvation through good works.
People can earn damnation through wickedness (in works or in thoughts).

The question is not what works you should be doing to gain salvation.
The question is what works and thoughts you should be doing to avoid damnation.

Philippians 4:8 8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.​

 

[Danoh]

Maybe you forgot to tell Paul that the scriptures were not to be read by us?

2 Timothy 3:16 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:​

Rightly divided, as to who, what, where, when, why, and how, within Scripture's own timeline - Time Past...But Now...The Ages to Come..."

2 Tim. 2:15; Ephesians 2:11, 13, and 7.

In remembrance of Rom.5: 6-8 - in each our stead.

 

[God's Truth]

My point is, what works can I do to earn salvation?


I agree


I absolutely agree. This is where a lot of people go wrong, they think Paul is talking about works in general.



Again, I agree.

I am glad we have so much agreement.

You say though what works can we do to earn our salvation.

We are to do what Jesus says to do to get saved.

We have to want to be saved more than anything.

We are to humble ourselves as little children ready to obey everything.

We are to forgive everyone who has sinned against us and repent of our sins; and call on Jesus to help.

Jesus saves us when he accepts us.

 

[meshak]

Paul fought this heresy from the Pharisees from the time he converted until his death.

People do not earn salvation through good works.
People can earn damnation through wickedness (in works or in thoughts).

The question is not what works you should be doing to gain salvation.
The question is what works and thoughts you should be doing to avoid damnation.

Philippians 4:8 8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.​

Do you agree what faith comes with action?

 

[God's Truth]

Paul fought this heresy from the Pharisees from the time he converted until his death.

People do not earn salvation through good works.
People can earn damnation through wickedness (in works or in thoughts).

The question is not what works you should be doing to gain salvation.
The question is what works and thoughts you should be doing to avoid damnation.

Philippians 4:8 8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.​

The Jews used to have to do works of the law to clean and justify themselves. Those are the works no one does anymore because faith in Jesus' blood is what cleans us.

That doesn't mean we don't have to obey to get saved, it means we don't have to get circumcised and sacrifice animals.