ECT True or False question (Billy Graham)

[Danoh]

Nope, we believe faith comes first but if you have faith, you will strive to be faithful to Jesus because Jesus commands us to produce fruit.

You guys skip Jesus' word.

I believe you guys are reading Paul's word wrong.

Even Peter admitted Paul's teachings are hard to understand, and Peter is apostle too.

Nope.

Peter wrote what the Spirit inspired him to write.

He was describing those who are unlearned.

He is not referring to himself.

They are the ones unable to understand the delay in the Lord's Prophesied return that Peter says Paul had also written about.

I would suggest you re-read all three of those chapters in 2nd Peter.

Acts 17: 11, 12 Meshak.

Rom. 5: 6-8 towards you.

 

[glorydaz]

At the same time, I do not agree with GD's error that there is no work expected of the Believer.



GD rightly believes one is saved unto good works.

But then she goes south on that with her notion that there is nothing the Believer is to do.

That the Spirit continues that work.

Which is nonsense - the Believer is saved UNTO good works.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

As that amazing twelve year old put it "wist ye not" don't you two know "that I must be about My Father's business?"

Well that is the Believer - saved UNTO the Father's business.

And that was Paul's sense of that...

1 Corinthians 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. 9:25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. 9:26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.



He is talking about lest he find himself having come short of that crown that he is talking about there.

Which is an issue different from salvation.

Because Rom. 5: 6-8.

I'm glad you think you have me all figured out. And why? Because I refuse to boast. Because I believe boasting is excluded by the law of faith. Paul did not boast in what the Spirit led him to do....even though God's UNtruth claims otherwise.

What I have said is that we are God's workmanship, and He gives us the desire and ability to do His good pleasure. So, stop running your mouth as if you knew what I believe. You fall far short.

 

[meshak]

Nope.

Peter wrote what the Spirit inspired him to write.

He was describing those who are unlearned.

He is not referring to himself.

They are the ones unable to understand the delay in the Lord's Prophesied return that Peter says Paul had also written about.

I would suggest you re-read all three of those chapters in 2nd Peter.

Acts 17: 11, 12 Meshak.

Rom. 5: 6-8 towards you.

Sorry, I don't agree with you.

Do you believe Jesus' word is just for the Jews and not for the gentiles?

 

[turbosixx]

Ephesians 2:8&9 as well. If what we believe isn't seated in scripture, we'd best be careful what our doctrine says.

None of those passages mention Jesus' work.

You'll have to deconstruct it for me, because I'm not seeing it: 1Corinthians 1:10-17 Acts 19:

What is Paul's point by asking this question in 1 Cor. 1:13?
Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

 

[Lon]

None of those passages mention Jesus' work.

What? How is anything Paul writes 'not' about the work of the Lord Jesus Christ?
I really need a lot more discussion than a sentence or two, to follow what you are saying, to His glory.

What is Paul's point by asking this question in 1 Cor. 1:13?
Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

Because there was indeed confusion? Why were some saying they were for Apollos? or baptized by him? Baptism carries these ideas: cleansing (often coinciding with repentance), newness, change of allegiance, and new identity. These guys were clearly using it as 'identity' and further, 'toward a person other than Christ.' It may be they felt they were more closely identified with Christ because of whom they deemed closer to Him (i.e. Paul,Apollos etc.).

 

[God's Truth]

And GD is partly right.

Marhig believes as you do - in works for salvation.

GD rightly does not.

At the same time, I do not agree with GD's error that there is no work expected of the Believer.

Marhig wrongly believes one is saved by one's works.

GD rightly believes one is saved unto good works.

But then she goes south on that with her notion that there is nothing the Believer is to do.

That the Spirit continues that work.

Which is nonsense - the Believer is saved UNTO good works.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

As that amazing twelve year old put it "wist ye not" don't you two know "that I must be about My Father's business?"

Well that is the Believer - saved UNTO the Father's business.

And that was Paul's sense of that...

1 Corinthians 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. 9:25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. 9:26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

And no, Meshak, Paul is not talking about his striving there lest he lose his salvation.

He is talking about lest he find himself having come short of that crown that he is talking about there.

Which is an issue different from salvation.

Because Rom. 5: 6-8.

Jesus didn't die so that you don't have to obey him to be saved.

God did not nail obeying Him to the cross.

For goodness sake, where is your reasoning skills?

The 'not of works' is about not of the purification works.

 

[marhig]

It tells you clearly in the verse what Paul means, crucified means he has been out to death.

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Paul doesn't live for himself anymore, but for God. He lives, but it's not him, his life is dead and hid with Christ. It's Christ living in him, he's dead to self and he's living by the will of God and walking in the Spirit, and Christ can be seen in and through him. That's death to self.

As for circumcised of the heart, where did I say that I can do that myself? No one can do that only God, we are just flesh we need the power of the Spirit to help us to overcome. And once we are circumcised of the heart, we are dying to self. Because our old man is dying so Christ can live. This is what the Holy Spirit should be doing to us daily, thus we die daily as we turn from the flesh to live by the will of God by the power of the Spirit though Christ.

Haven't you experienced this? If the Spirit is within then you should have, because we can't produce the fruits of the Spirit whilst still living in the flesh and living by our own will. We must be living by the will of God.

 

[marhig]

INCREDIBLE. IDIOTIC.

This is the resurrection from the dead chapter, and you think Paul is speaking of his personal willfulness? Paul is stating he is in danger of dying each and every day, and if there is no resurrection from the dead, he will be one of those "men more miserable". DORK

1 Cor. 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. 29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

30 And why stand we in jeopardy every hour? 31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. 32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.
​

What do you think that the resurrection from the dead is?

 

[marhig]

Then you did not understand my post.

Paul is reminding the eternally saved Believer of what he has been eternally saved unto - unto service and how that is tapped into in one's daily life.

By reckoning oneself dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God.

In other words by reckoning as true, the fact that the Believer has been eternally saved, and that built into that eternal life now EVER resident IN him IN CHRIST is the very power by which Christ rose from the dead.

See Romans 6 thru 8.

And you do not even believe in the eternal security of the Believer.

Meaning, you are actually agreeing with YOUR understanding of what I wrote, not with MY understanding of it.

Rom. 5: 6-8 towards you.

Someday.

Today would be as good as any, Meshak.

Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Really, so what about those who after being saved, reject God? Are they still saved?

 

[marhig]

Nope.

He is talking about both.

He is talking (1) about living like (2) one who has been crucified with Christ.

One aspect is the issue of one's having been fully justified.

The other is the daily issue of living sanctified, or like one who has been set apart unto God by Him the moment one believed Christ died for one's sins.

He is talking Romans 6-8.

He is talking the issue of (1) having been saved (2) for service.

And he is doing so, in light of Rom. 5: 6-8.

I agree with most of that, except that it's not Jesus dying on the cross that sanctifies us, but the Holy Spirit in the heart which we receive in God's time through faith and by his grace. Our hearts can't be cleansed without the power of the Spirit and then the life of Christ is made manifest within our hearts, it's then that the blood of Christ cleanses us. Which is his life.

 

[marhig]

And GD is partly right.

Marhig believes as you do - in works for salvation.

GD rightly does not.

At the same time, I do not agree with GD's error that there is no work expected of the Believer.

Marhig wrongly believes one is saved by one's works.

GD rightly believes one is saved unto good works.

But then she goes south on that with her notion that there is nothing the Believer is to do.

That the Spirit continues that work.

Which is nonsense - the Believer is saved UNTO good works.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

As that amazing twelve year old put it "wist ye not" don't you two know "that I must be about My Father's business?"

Well that is the Believer - saved UNTO the Father's business.

And that was Paul's sense of that...

1 Corinthians 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. 9:25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. 9:26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

And no, Meshak, Paul is not talking about his striving there lest he lose his salvation.

He is talking about lest he find himself having come short of that crown that he is talking about there.

Which is an issue different from salvation.

Because Rom. 5: 6-8.

Hang on, where have I ever said I'm saved by my works? I've never said that. I can't do any works without God. I'm just flesh.

 

[meshak]

What do you think that the resurrection from the dead is?

excellent question

 

[Danoh]

I'm glad you think you have me all figured out. And why? Because I refuse to boast. Because I believe boasting is excluded by the law of faith. Paul did not boast in what the Spirit led him to do....even though God's UNtruth claims otherwise.

What I have said is that we are God's workmanship, and He gives us the desire and ability to do His good pleasure. So, stop running your mouth as if you knew what I believe. You fall far short.

One, a person who knows and believes the Word rightly divided is enabled through that to properly discern the thoughts and intents of another's heart.

Duh-uh.

Obviously, you don't even know that.

Two, nope, only in Pentecostalism and or the equally false Holiness Movement is this error of yours taught as truth during this age - that He gives us the desire to do of His good pleasure.

The ability is given.

But not the desire.

Three, hence, Paul's constant addressing of this desire issue.

The desire is different for each person and is an issue of their upbringing.

They either bring that to the table (like the more noble but lost Bereans, in Acts 17, for example) or they learn it through the Word, as asserted in a passage like that last passage in 2 Cor. 3, for example.

Case in point, just last week, right after I shared the gospel of our salvation with two people and they both trusted the Lord...

Without any prompting from me, one of them was right away all set to get to learning about serving Him and began asking questions about that.

In contrast, the other one was not, in ANY sense of the word.

The former was simply "more noble than" the latter.

The latter will have to learn to appreciate the Lord.

One sees this very contrast between the two within the various people Paul writes to.

Some right off bend over backwards and then some, for the Lord.

Others, Paul ends up investing a great deal of time having to remind them of...the love of Christ.

Through the Word, that It, begin to...effectually work in them...that believe It.

Yours is your lens read into these things.

So you appreciate the Lord.

Or so you claim.

For it is ever obvious on here and on the other forums on here, that your appreciation of Him follows a double-standard.

Yours is "I love Jesus...as for so and so...nope!"

Well, for some, He is easy to love.

As for loving others in His stead?

Not so much.

So you go right on ahead with your carefulness in your words with those you consider your own, and your use of words like idiot with those you look down your hypocrisy from.

Your "sinless" doctrine ever proven as full of holes by your own hand, as your ever obvious ignorance of your crystal clear double-standard.

Just about every so called MAD on here is too often like that.

Despite the fact that is Rom. 5: 6-8 - in EACH our STEAD.

 

[glorydaz]

One, a person who knows and believes the Word rightly divided is enabled through that to properly discern the thoughts and intents of another's heart.



Two, nope, only in Pentecostalism and or the equally false Holiness Movement is this error of yours taught as truth during this age - that He gives us the desire to do of His good pleasure.

The ability is given.

But not the desire.

I can't read any more of your drivel. It's sad you don't give God the glory for giving us the desire to do His good pleasure. You keep showing me that you are simply a glory stealer like the rest of the workers around here. :nono:

Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.​

 

[glorydaz]

It tells you clearly in the verse what Paul means, crucified means he has been out to death.

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Paul doesn't live for himself anymore, but for God. He lives, but it's not him, his life is dead and hid with Christ. It's Christ living in him, he's dead to self and he's living by the will of God and walking in the Spirit, and Christ can be seen in and through him. That's death to self.

As for circumcised of the heart, where did I say that I can do that myself? No one can do that only God, we are just flesh we need the power of the Spirit to help us to overcome. And once we are circumcised of the heart, we are dying to self. Because our old man is dying so Christ can live. This is what the Holy Spirit should be doing to us daily, thus we die daily as we turn from the flesh to live by the will of God by the power of the Spirit though Christ.

Haven't you experienced this? If the Spirit is within then you should have, because we can't produce the fruits of the Spirit whilst still living in the flesh and living by our own will. We must be living by the will of God.

Just keep carrying that cross of yours, worker bee. :chuckle:

 

[meshak]

Just keep carrying that cross of yours, worker bee. :chuckle:

May God be with you, friend.

 

[glorydaz]

May God be with you, friend.

:troll:

 

[meshak]

:troll:

Love and peace in Christ

 

[turbosixx]

What? How is anything Paul writes 'not' about the work of the Lord Jesus Christ?
I really need a lot more discussion than a sentence or two, to follow what you are saying, to His glory.

This is your exact wording and very similar to what I hear others say.

How about the work of Christ?

Could you please point me to a verse where an inspired writer speaks of "Jesus’ work". For example, like this passage that clearly speaks of our work.
I Cor. 15:58 Therefore, my beloved brothers, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that in the Lord your labor is not in vain.

I read where we are told about Jesus' sacrifice but I'm unaware of an inspired writer telling us we do not need works because of Jesus' "work". That is what people are preaching today. You don't have to work because he did it all. I don't see that in scripture.
For example, does this passage say that we are saved "without" doing works? I say no. It says "not a result of works" or KJV "Not of works".
I agree 100%, our works cannot save us! The question I have is, can we be saved without works?

The language itself implies that the true Christian will be doing works. I suggest again, the wording does not say we are saved without doing any works of our own. The next verse confirms that fact.
Eph. 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Because there was indeed confusion? Baptism carries these ideas: cleansing (often coinciding with repentance), newness, change of allegiance, and new identity.

Ideas? Why does baptism carry these “ideas”? What does the bible state, not ideas, about baptism?


When Paul asked the question, “or were you baptized in the name of Paul?”, he’s talking to those who had been baptized and excluding those who had not. It’s clear that they all had been baptized into someone’s name. We know that name is Jesus. First, because that is how Jesus said to make Christians, baptizing them in his name, Matt. 28:19,20. Second, we see those preaching the gospel doing just that, Acts 2:38; Acts 19:5.

If we look at that last conversion where Paul gives them the gifts of the Holy Spirit, he recognizes them as believers but he knows they haven’t been baptized properly (in the name of Jesus). When he finds out they haven’t been given the gifts of the Holy Spirit, notice the question he asks them. “Unto what then were ye baptized?” Why would he ask this question if the Holy Spirit does the baptizing at belief? He sees why they didn’t receive the gifts because they hadn’t been properly baptized. He doesn’t preach them the gospel. He doesn’t question their belief. He only baptizes them properly before he gives them the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Lon]

I agree 100%, our works cannot save us! The question I have is, can we be saved without works?

Luke 23:40-43

AMR has said it thus: Faith alone saves, a saving faith is not alone.

For me, the real question is this: Are we 'partly' involved in our spiritual growth? I used to fret and was likely on almost the same ground as you at one time. Ephesians 2:10 Proverbs 16:9 1 Corinthians 4:7, John 15:5 Colossians 1:17

So, we are 'recreated for good works.' My question another way: Who's? I think a desire to be responsible is a good thing BUT I think it still not fully hidden with Christ in God at that point, that we are holding reserve of identity and thus, I began to greatly empathize with those who believed monergism (God alone salvation, God alone workmanship).
There are scriptures that talk about our needs to follow Him and it is important that we heed scripture. The only thing I'm ever against is any kind of attachment to it as 1) a need for salvation and 2) a work that isn't completely in His hands.

Example: Some of my kids need more hands on parenting than the others. "If" I'm a good parent Proverbs 22:6, I'll do all things that ensure my kids are raised well. Where does my analogy/example break down? This is important. No verse above is as far as God's ownership of us Romans 9:7-29 likened to a parents 'ownership' of his/her children. My kids can fairly well prosper without me, none of us can do 'any-one-thing' John 15:5 Colossians 1:17 without God. Any self-will in relation to that has me always running back to 1 Corinthians 4:7: What do I have that isn't His? Just my sinful desires and autonomy. If I see my 'responsibility' as a gift from God, I've missed Genesis 3 'like God.' Denying myself and taking up my cross is self-denial and no longer autonomous and self-responsible. Galatians 2:20

Now, I realize you might disagree on some of this, but I think explaining it is important. It was for me. I wanted to know scriptures. 1 John 4:18 was pivotal. I had ALWAYS had 'responsibility' and 'fear and trembling' in working out my salvation. I still do, because I am in the hands of God Almighty, one way or the other. Catholics tend to read this verse and think we can have no assurance of salvation, thus. It is very much a Christianity that is caught on the side of fear. Real growth doesn't come from spats with God Hebrews 12:6-8 but with a wholesome relationship. I believe we 'can' stifle growth, but I do not believe those in Christ can stop growth because it is our Lord Jesus Christ's work Ephesians 2:10. I also believe the more malleable we are, reading His word and spending time with Him daily, causes us to be wise and more effective. The benefit? That God is seen more clearly and we are more effective in our ministry and witness. We are a body, so MOST benefit this side of heaven, is for us and the rest of the Body. John 13:34,35

For me, I don't think one who is Christ's, can help but express the Lord Jesus Christ who is inside of Him. The 'desire' is placed in us. I don't think I 'can' encourage another to love the Lord Jesus Christ much more than He already does except by him/her seeing something more of Him in me.

Because we are in Christ, life and love are our future. We ARE one body as such. We ARE in Christ already. 1 John 3:2


The language itself implies that the true Christian will be doing works. I suggest again, the wording does not say we are saved without doing any works of our own. The next verse confirms that fact.
Eph. 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.




Ideas? Why does baptism carry these “ideas”? What does the bible state, not ideas, about baptism?


When Paul asked the question, “or were you baptized in the name of Paul?”, he’s talking to those who had been baptized and excluding those who had not. It’s clear that they all had been baptized into someone’s name. We know that name is Jesus. First, because that is how Jesus said to make Christians, baptizing them in his name, Matt. 28:19,20. Second, we see those preaching the gospel doing just that, Acts 2:38; Acts 19:5.

If we look at that last conversion where Paul gives them the gifts of the Holy Spirit, he recognizes them as believers but he knows they haven’t been baptized properly (in the name of Jesus). When he finds out they haven’t been given the gifts of the Holy Spirit, notice the question he asks them. “Unto what then were ye baptized?” Why would he ask this question if the Holy Spirit does the baptizing at belief? He sees why they didn’t receive the gifts because they hadn’t been properly baptized. He doesn’t preach them the gospel. He doesn’t question their belief. He only baptizes them properly before he gives them the gifts of the Holy Spirit.[/QUOTE]