Trinity Proof Scriptures

[JudgeRightly]

Like I said, amusing in a sad way.

Scripture is amusing in a sad way?

:AMR:

 

[MennoSota]

https://youtu.be/KQLfgaUoQCw

 

[Idolater]

As an outsider, I find the discussion a bit amusing, in a sad sort of way. I find it curious that some think that you must be a theologian in order to get to heaven.

We can thank the Protestant Reformers for that. It wasn't this way before the Reformation. The Church's bishops are the only ones who must be right in theology, because it's their job to teach the faith. They sort of sit in Moses' seat in that regard. Nowadays, a lot of Bible-thumping non-Catholics (like me) have taken it upon themselves personally to get the teaching right, out of necessity, in the false void of an authorized teaching office. The Church always had teaching taken care of, the Apostles instituted the office of Bishop for this very purpose. But Protestantism denies that the office exists in any valid way, and instead assigns teaching authority to just the Bible. This leads to what we have today, with many different takes on what the Scripture itself teaches, and also with no real way to authenticate the correct theology.

 

[Dartman]

Doing good and praying to God won't get a man to heaven.

Nothing will. The Bible doesn't teach "going to heaven" for any human except Jesus;
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but the he that came down from heaven, even the Son of Man which is in heaven.

Only by confessing that Jesus Christ is Lord and believing that God has raised Him from the dead.

...AND obeying the commandments our God has given to our Lord.

 

[Dartman]

We can thank the Protestant Reformers for that. It wasn't this way before the Reformation.

LOL ..... you need to read less Catholic "history", and more REAL history.

The Church's bishops are the only ones who must be right in theology, because it's their job to teach the faith.

.... wow ..... way to prove Chair's point ..... "Bishops"= "theologians"

They sort of sit in Moses' seat in that regard. Nowadays, a lot of Bible-thumping non-Catholics (like me) have taken it upon themselves personally to get the teaching right, out of necessity, in the false void of an authorized teaching office. The Church always had teaching taken care of, the Apostles instituted the office of Bishop for this very purpose.

And, according to Paul, SOME of the Bishops/Elders departed/fell away from the truth. A tiny minority, "few" have held to the truth from apostolic teaching, through today.

But Protestantism denies that the office exists in any valid way,

No, that's one thing the protestants actually dialed back to Scriptural standards.

... and instead assigns teaching authority to just the Bible.

Close, but not quite. There are MANY teachers in the body...... and EVERY teacher (including the apostles) is subject to the Berean principle;
Acts 17:10-11 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

MANY of the doctrines of the Catholic Church, the JWs, the Mormons, the Protestants .... fail this test.

This leads to what we have today, with many different takes on what the Scripture itself teaches,

LOL .... again, you need to read more accurate histories.

Did everyone agree with the Gnostics?
Did everyone agree with the "trinity"?
How many of the Councils were called BECAUSE of "heresy"???
How many were murdered for disagreeing with "the Great Harlot"??

... and also with no real way to authenticate the correct theology.

Acts 17:10-11 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Nothing will. The Bible doesn't teach "going to heaven" for any human except Jesus;

Sure it does.

For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven,if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked.For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life.Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord.For we walk by faith, not by sight.We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. - 2 Corinthians 5:1-8 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2Corinthians5:1-8&version=NKJV

The Lord is God, right?

Ergo, we will be with God.

Heaven is God's abode.

Ergo, we will be in Heaven.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but the he that came down from heaven, even the Son of Man which is in heaven.

True. At this point in history, no man had ascended into heaven.

Because the High Priest had not died yet.

...AND obeying the commandments our God has given to our Lord.

Nope.

I practically quoted, verbatim, Romans 10:9. It says nothing about obedience.

 

[Dartman]

Sure it does.

For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven,if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked.For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life.Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord.For we walk by faith, not by sight.We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. - 2 Corinthians 5:1-8 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2Corinthians5:1-8&version=NKJV

I highlighted and changed the color of crucial elements of the few verses you quoted. Notice Paul is waiting for that "habitation" to come FROM heaven. There is NO doubt, the reward IS in heaven.... but the Scriptures make it VERY clear, the righteous do NOT go there to get that reward ....... JESUS brings it "with him"!

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.


Phil 3:20-21 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; 21 who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that he has even to subject all things to himself.


1 Cor 15:22-23 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,

See, Paul KNEW he would sleep in death, completely unaware of the passage of time...... UNTIL Jesus RETURNS to the earth, and resurrects the righteous .... THEN Jesus will cloth ALL the righteous with that building/body/immortality promised/reserved FROM heaven.


Rom 8:23-24 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. 24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees?

The Lord is God, right?

Ergo, we will be with God.

Absolutely .... once God LEAVES heaven, and comes to earth to dwell with His sons and daughters .... the righteous WILL be with God.

Heaven is God's abode....

Only for now.

Ergo, we will be in Heaven.

Nope, Jesus is coming here ..... and more than 1,000 years later, so is our God. (Rev 19-22)

True. At this point in history, no man had ascended into heaven.

You mean at the point when Jesus was "in heaven"? See, John wrote this about 30 years AFTER Jesus ascended to heaven.

Because the High Priest had not died yet.

Acts 2 was written several days AFTER the High Priest had died, and ascended to his God, and our God, his Father, and our Father.
Acts 2:34-35 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

And, we know from MANY OT prophecies, AND from statements in the NT, that David is counted as righteous, "a man after God's own heart";


Heb 11:32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:


So, the Scriptures are clear, ALL those that have died are "asleep in the dust";

Dan 12:2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.


.... and are "in the graves";

John 5:28-29 "Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out — those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.



There are MANY Scriptures that make it clear, ALL the righteous will be resurrected BACK to life at the same time.

Heb 11:39-40 And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40 because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.

Nope.


I practically quoted, verbatim, Romans 10:9. It says nothing about obedience.

Hmmm .... I've never HEARD of a Bible with just one verse!
I think you got ripped off!

 

[7djengo7]

Philippians 2:5-9 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:​

Thanks! That's one of the many, many Bible passages that DOES NOT TEACH what you teach, that

Christ Jesus left heaven, stripped Himself of His divinity, and was born as a man.

 

[Right Divider]

Thanks! That's one of the many, many Bible passages that DOES NOT TEACH what you teach, that

The idea that Jesus Christ was 100% divine before He came to earth and then was 0% divine on earth is RIDICULOUS.

Where to people get these insane ideas?

God is always God and cannot become "not God".

(referring to GO, not you).

 

[7djengo7]

There are other gods, but I serve one God and one Lord.

As an anti-Trinitarian, you deny that Jesus is YHWH.
When you say "I serve...one Lord", to Whom are you referring by the word "Lord"? To Jesus?
Now, when you say "I serve one God", to Whom are you referring by the word "God"? YHWH?
Do you deny that YHWH is Lord?

To say

1. YHWH is a lord, and
2. Jesus is a lord, and
3. Jesus is not YHWH, and
4. I serve YHWH, and
5. I serve Jesus,

is to say "I serve two lords".

 

[7djengo7]

The idea that Jesus Christ was 100% divine before He came to earth and then was 0% divine on earth is RIDICULOUS.

Where to people get these insane ideas?

God is always God and cannot become "not God".

(referring to GO, not you).

Absolutely right, Right Divider!

Well, wherever they do get them from, they do not get them from the Bible!

 

[7djengo7]

I love this post!
I hope you stick around.

Thank you so much! Quite happy to hear that! I can say this much: I have no plans to not stick around.

Stay tuned, and God bless!

 

[Tambora]

Thank you so much! Quite happy to hear that! I can say this much: I have no plans to not stick around.

Stay tuned, and God bless!

YAY!
GOD bless you too.

 

[Idolater]

LOL ..... you need to read less Catholic "history", and more REAL history.


.... wow ..... way to prove Chair's point ..... "Bishops"= "theologians"

[MENTION=5868]chair[/MENTION] said, "some think that you must be a theologian in order to get to heaven." I didn't "prove" that point at all. I was talking about who actually must know their theology, because it's their job.

And, according to Paul, SOME of the Bishops/Elders departed/fell away from the truth.

Yes, some.

A tiny minority, "few" have held to the truth from apostolic teaching, through today.

Who? In my view, the papacy teaches the truth, and so do all those bishops who are in communion with the Pope, but who in your view are the bishops today who still teach the truth?

No, that's one thing the protestants actually dialed back to Scriptural standards.

Which scriptural standard has it that the office of Bishop is not fully valid today?

Close, but not quite. There are MANY teachers in the body...

There are many quote-unquote "teachers," and there are many authentic teachers.

... and EVERY teacher (including the apostles) is subject to the Berean principle;
Acts 17:10-11 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

MANY of the doctrines of the Catholic Church, the JWs, the Mormons, the Protestants .... fail this test.

Who made you an authenticated teacher, who is authorized to judge the results of others' tests? This was my point. With the Bible alone being the sole source of valid authority, then in order to pronounce one view of the Bible as the correct one, and all others defective, you have to have some teaching authority yourself. So even in the case that the Bible alone is the sole source of teaching authority, there still must be someone who's interpretation of the Bible is the correct one, the standard, according to which anybody else's ideas of notions must be measured.

"Sola scriptura" in this regard only works practically when we all agree on what the Scripture teaches. Since that's not reality, we require someone with valid teaching authority.

LOL .... again, you need to read more accurate histories.

Did everyone agree with the Gnostics?

No bishops did.

Did everyone agree with the "trinity"?

All the western bishops did, including the papacy, which received the Apostolic oral tradition from both Peter and from Paul, who both were martyred in Rome.

How many of the Councils were called BECAUSE of "heresy"???

They precipitated due to disputes, and they did conclude with pronouncing the truth, distinguishing it from the heresy.

How many were murdered for disagreeing with "the Great Harlot"??

What's the Great Harlot? For centuries all the Christians who were murdered /tortured cruelly were victims of pagans. Are pagans the Great Harlot?

Acts 17:10-11 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

When you search the Scripture, do you, or do you not, find "bishops?" They're also called "overseers" and "elders."

 

[Dartman]

@chair said, "some think that you must be a theologian in order to get to heaven." I didn't "prove" that point at all. I was talking about who actually must know their theology, because it's their job.

It's EVERY believers Job to know their theology, and to check EVERYTHING they are told by ANY mortal leader, INCLUDING THE APOSTLES, with the Scriptures.

Acts 17:10-13 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. 12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.
13 But when the Jews of Thessalonica had knowledge that the word of God was preached of Paul at Berea, they came thither also, and stirred up the people.

In my view, the papacy teaches the truth, and so do all those bishops who are in communion with the Pope..

Sorry, they fail the Beran test.

but who in your view are the bishops today who still teach the truth?

Any bishops/elders that are in harmony with the Scriptures.

Which scriptural standard has it that the office of Bishop is not fully valid today?

Of course "bishop/elder" is a fully valid office .... but Scripture doesn't agree with your conclusion that being IN that office makes the person "INFALLIBLE".... (hopefully, you are aware of the historical implications of that word) .

There are many quote-unquote "teachers," and there are many authentic teachers.

I see the Scriptures stating there ar MANY false teachers, and FEW authentic teachers.

Who made you an authenticated teacher, who is authorized to judge the results of others' tests?

It's not ME that judges the truth, it's the SCRIPTURES that determines what is truth. As an elder/bishop in my congregation, I am merely a follower of God's words. The congregation has asked me to do the works required of an elder/bishop.

This was my point. With the Bible alone being the sole source of valid authority, then in order to pronounce one view of the Bible as the correct one, and all others defective, you have to have some teaching authority yourself.

Not at all. The Scriptures are the authority.

So even in the case that the Bible alone is the sole source of teaching authority, there still must be someone who's interpretation of the Bible is the correct one,

No mortal human.

Jesus, and the Scriptures are the standard, and EVERY believer is commanded to seek, knock and ask, checking EVERY "answer" with the Scriptures.

2 Tim 3:16-17 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Rom 2:10-11 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

 

[Apple7]

As an outsider, I find the discussion a bit amusing, in a sad sort of way. I find it curious that some think that you must be a theologian in order to get to heaven.

If a man does good, and prays to God every day, who cares if he understands the 'structure' of God, or gets some other theological point wrong?

Jews don't believe in Heaven to begin with, so why are you even replying...?