Trinity Proof Scriptures

[Dartman]

God HAS a mind, or God IS a mind?

Just like you and I, God has a mind, and God is a mind. Granted, His mind is as much higher than ours as the heavens are higher than earth .... but the principle is the same.

God is a mind, but that's not ALL God is.
God is Love, God is a consuming fire, God is the Creator, God is ..... lots of stuff.

Since I am a mind, I--the mind that I am--think.

Yep. Both perspectives are accurate.

Do you know Confucius?

 

[Dartman]

Answer the question:

Is God a mind? Yes or No?

Until you say to me, "Yes, God is a mind," OR, "No, God is not a mind," you will not have answered the question I asked you.

Is God a mind? Yes or No?

It's up to you whether you accept a more detailed answer.

I not only won't force you to accept my answer, I can't force you you to accept my answer.

But I'm NOT going to comply with your artificial limitations.

 

[Dartman]

Nope-you don't have that authority, per 2 Corinthians 4:4 KJV. "Correction" is your ministry, Christ rejector.

=the word means what I, bible corrector, says it means.



John 17:5 KJV And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Isaiah 48 KJVa
11 For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it:for how should my name be polluted?and I will not give my glory unto another.

1 Corinthians 2 KJV

8 which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.


John 2 KJV

11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.

Luke 9 KJV
26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father’s, and of the holy angels.

Take your seat-I only engage bible believers, not bible correctors/agnostics/mystics.


in his own glory, and in his Father’s


Isaiah 48 KJVa
11 For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it:for how should my name be polluted?and I will not give my glory unto another.


John 16 KJV
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 16 A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.

Isaiah 48 KJVa
11 For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it:for how should my name be polluted?and I will not give my glory unto another.

You didn't address John 17:21 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
Please do so, and we can then discuss the next set of verses.

 

[john w]

Answer the question:

Is God a mind? Yes or No?

Until you say to me, "Yes, God is a mind," OR, "No, God is not a mind," you will not have answered the question I asked you.

Is God a mind? Yes or No?

I have told you repeatedly, God has a mind ... it is called "the holy spirit".

Mark 1 KJV

10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him: 11 and there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.


Bible corrector Dartman's "correction:"

And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and God's mind like a dove descending upon him: 11 and there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

2 Corinthians 13 KJV
14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.


Bible corrector Dartman's "correction:"

14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of God's mind, be with you all. Amen.

John 14 KJV
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Bible corrector Dartman's "correction:"


16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another God's mind, that he may abide with you for ever;


Got any reefer?:

 

[glorydaz]

I could answer that question consistently concerning myself. No matter which I would choose I can think of a reason why that answer would be wrong. I think that is because the meaning of the word "is" is not defined (too flexible) in that question.

Nobody was asking you. :chuckle:

 

[john w]

You didn't address John 17:21 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
Please do so, and we can then discuss the next set of verses.

Do not confuse your lack of spiritual discernment, per 2 Corinthians 4:4 KJV, with any alleged failure on my part, to address your "argument." You spam that to everyone, Christ rejector, and you've not addressed our argument in Genesis-Revelation.


So there-I just "one upped" you.


I only engage bible believers-that excludes you, bible rejector/corrector/agnostic/mystic.

 

[Dartman]

Do you count human life as beginning from some other time than conception? Or do you mean that Jesus did not literally exist until Bethlehem because that is when the parents would officially apply the name?

There is no question that Jesus existed in God's plan from the beginning. There should be no question that Jehovah/YHVH God knew what He was talking about when He stated that Jesus ("he which is to be ruler in Israel) would "come forth unto me" in Bethlehem.

It isn't essential to have a name to literally exist.

Regarding when "human life" begins, Mary conceived in Nazareth .... Jesus "came forth unto" Jehovah in Bethlehem.

And, just in case you're wondering ..... I am NOT in favor of abortion!!

 

[7djengo7]

Just like you and I, God has a mind, and God is a mind.

So, you're talking about two minds:

1. The mind that you say God HAS
2. The mind that you say God IS

You call mind #1 "the holy spirit", and you deny that mind #1 is the Most High God, and the Only True God.
You call mind #2 "the Father", and you affirm that mind #2 is the Most High God, and the Only True God.

 

[john w]

But I'm NOT going to comply with your artificial limitations.

What a mess....The fool does not "get" that the bible testifies to the fact that we have a "limiting" LORD God.

 

[john w]

Just like you and I, God has a mind, and God is a mind.

Catch that Sean Paul Sarte/Albert Camus psycho babble?

1. No scripture asserts that God "is a mind."

2.
So, to say that has a mind is to say that God is one thing, and the mind of God is another thing. That is, something that is different from what God is. Why? The mind is something that God has. The question that needs to be asked is..... did God create everything except for two things? That is, himself, and his mind?

Need some help getting out of that ditch?

 

[Dartman]

So, you're talking about two minds:

1. The mind that you say God HAS
2. The mind that you say God IS

Nope. Just one mind. It is God, and it is God's. ...... like you and I, and every other sentient being.

You call mind #1 "the holy spirit", and you deny that mind #1 is the Most High God, and the Only True God.
You call mind #2 "the Father", and you affirm that mind #2 is the Most High God, and the Only True God.

I deny that God's spirit is a being/person separate from the Father...... IT is the Father's mind.

 

[7djengo7]

Just like you and I, God has a mind, and God is a mind.

The only true God is the Father, the holy spirit is His mind

The mind that you call "the holy spirit" is the mind that you say God HAS, and you say that, alongside that mind, there is a second mind, namely, the mind that you say the Father IS. Now, of this second mind, this mind that you say the Father IS, the question is, WHO has THAT mind?

You say that the mind you call "the Father" HAS the mind that you call "the holy spirit", so, then, who HAS the mind that you call "the Father"?

 

[7djengo7]

Nope. Just one mind. It is God, and it is God's. ...... like you and I, and every other sentient being.

"Nope"? That doesn't make what you said go away. No sir, not in the least!

You have made it perfectly clear that you are talking about TWO minds: one which you call "the Father", and one which you call "the holy spirit". To further distinguish between the TWO minds which you have posited, you have AFFIRMED, of one of the two, that it is the Only True God, whereas, you have AFFIRMED, of the other of the two, that it is NOT the Only True God. You can't hide the debacle you've constructed for yourself throughout your many ravings in this forum.

Why are you so addicted to irrationality?

 

[7djengo7]

But I'm NOT going to comply with your artificial limitations.

By which you mean that you absolutely refuse to try to think logically, and that you intend to stonewall against questions which, as you and I both understand, necessarily embarrass your ideological dungheap beyond any hope of salvage, shining a light upon your deplorable inconsistencies and hypocrisies.

 

[Idolater]

No, it doesn't. See the title of the thread.

I already explained how and that it does. The Church's bishops, those men holding the authentic teaching office of the Church, instituted by the Apostles of Christ, teach the Trinity. The office of Bishop, and individual bishops, are depicted in Scripture. In fact anything the bishops teach are fair game when we limit it to just what the Scripture says, because the exercise presupposes that it's worth our time to try to tease out and stitch together theology from only the Scripture, and simultaneously ignoring what the Church's authentic pastors---remember they and their beginning are recorded in Scripture---altogether teach.

No, it doesn't. Look it up.

I did. Here's what I found. From its chapter seven, here are two English renderings:

truly the Almighty Creator of the Universe, the Invisible God Himself from heaven planted among men the truth and the holy teaching which surpasseth the wit of man, and fixed it firmly in their hearts, not as any man might imagine, by sending (to mankind) a subaltern, or angel, or ruler, or one of those that direct the affairs of earth, or one of those who have been entrusted with the dispensations in heaven, but the very Artificer and Creator of the Universe Himself truly God Himself, who is almighty, the Creator of all things, and invisible, has sent from heaven, and placed among men, [Him who is] the truth, and the holy and incomprehensible Word, and has firmly established Him in their hearts. He did not, as one might have imagined, send to men any servant, or angel, or ruler, or any one of those who bear sway over earthly things, or one of those to whom the government of things in the heavens has been entrusted, but the very Creator and Fashioner of all things

​

I made bold the salient proposition, though it is widely divided by numerous other clauses in the text:
From 1st source: "the Almighty Creator of the Universe...planted among men...the...Creator of the Universe Himself"
From 2nd source: "the Creator of all things...has sent...the very Creator...of all things"

Do you see what I'm seeing? How does the "Creator" plant /send the "Creator?" We need an object and a subject, but there appears to be just one or the other here. The Trinity has no trouble with this. One's the Father, and One's the Son. Or, One's the Father, Son, and Spirit together, and One's the Son alone. Either way, easy peasy for the Trinity.

It really doesn't matter when only that scholars agree additions were made or even that the entire "epistle" was a forgery used to support a particular doctrine. Don't believe me? Look it up.

I don't believe you because you're mischaracterizing what these unnamed 'scholars' say. They say the last two chapters of the epistle are likely additions, period. And as to whether the whole thing is a phony; it still goes to when it was written, because you're claiming the Trinity didn't manifest until the 3rd century, and I'm seeing most estimates dating the document to no later than AD 132. Do you have some other estimate?

Oh, I see, you thought I meant Father, Son, and Holy Spirit doesn't appear in scripture. No, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit = Trinity, which doesn't appear in scripture even as a concept except in the imagination of the trinitarian. I apologize for confusing you. I at least gave you a straw man to attack. You should thank me.

How did God purchase the Church with His own blood? Acts 20:28 KJV The Trinity has no trouble with this. Why did Paul write Philippians 2:9-10 KJV in that way, when he knew what Isaiah 45:23 KJV already read? The Trinity has no trouble with this.

In my opinion, the debate over weather Beowulf started as an oral tradition is MUCH less important than ensuring the preservation (documentation) of a critical Christian theological doctrine. Your priorities my differ.

Your irrelevant to the topic opinion is noted, and we all further note, that you implicitly concede therefore, that just because an oral tradition isn't written down, doesn't mean that it didn't exist for quite a long time beforehand.

 

[Idolater]

False. 100% of Christians believe the Trinity.

In that sense then, 100% of Christians are Catholic, whether they know or like it, or not.

Unless you're saying that believing in the Trinity is necessary for salvation, which is what I actually think that you're saying. I do not believe that we must be Catholic to be saved.

Well, on second thought, not false, since, it being the case that 100% of Christians believe the Trinity, it is implicit, therein, that 99% of Christians believe the Trinity.

But, here is a falsehood: "Less than 100% of Christians believe the Trinity."

Well, again, on second thought, that can't be false, either, since inasmuch as it is true that, since 100% of Christians believe the Trinity, so do 99%, then 99% being less than 100% means that less than 100% of Christians believe the Trinity, though, also, 100% of Christians believe the Trinity.

But, here is a falsehood: "Some % of Christians do not believe the Trinity."

I understand your position.

 

[Dartman]

The mind that you call "the holy spirit" is the mind that you say God HAS,

Yes.

and you say that, alongside that mind, there is a second mind, namely, the mind that you say the Father IS.

Nope, it's the same mind, not a second mind
David was a man after God's own heart. Heart=mind in this case. That doesn't mean God has 3 minds.... it merely means there are different words, or phrases that apply to the same thing.

Here is an example;
1 Cor 2 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the spirit and of power:
5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by His spirit: for the spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the holy spirit teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Paul discusses the conflict between two spirits; the spirit of the world versus the spirit which is of God;

There are multiple synonymous phrases, used interchangeably, for those two spirits;

The holy spirit is also called; the spirit which is of God; the wisdom of God', the power of God, the mind of the Lord.

The spirit of the world is also called; the wisdom of men, the wisdom of this world, the spirit of man which is in him

The "mind of Christ" is harmoneous with the mind of God, because Jesus learned to think like his God, and was given his God's spirit without measure.
Our spirit/mind is supposed to become like God's spirit/mind, and Christ is the perfect example of a man who fully accomplished that.

 

[Dartman]

"Nope"? That doesn't make what you said go away. No sir, not in the least!

You have made it perfectly clear that you are talking about TWO minds:

Nope.

..one which you call "the Father", and one which you call "the holy spirit".

The holy spirit is God's mind, which is the Father's mind, which is the identity of Jehovah/YHVH God.
One mind, MULTIPLE names.

To further distinguish between the TWO minds which you have posited, you have AFFIRMED, of one of the two, that it is the Only True God, whereas, you have AFFIRMED, of the other of the two, that it is NOT the Only True God.

Nope. I have consistently said there is only one true God, and that's the Father. The holy spirit is the ONLY true God's mind, and the power produced by God's mind.

 

[Rosenritter]

There is no question that Jesus existed in God's plan from the beginning. There should be no question that Jehovah/YHVH God knew what He was talking about when He stated that Jesus ("he which is to be ruler in Israel) would "come forth unto me" in Bethlehem.

It isn't essential to have a name to literally exist.

Regarding when "human life" begins, Mary conceived in Nazareth .... Jesus "came forth unto" Jehovah in Bethlehem.

And, just in case you're wondering ..... I am NOT in favor of abortion!!

So by literal existence you mean a specific living physical existence beginning in Nazareth.

If you mean merely living physical existence I understand the conception to death definition of "existence" but it is worth noting that there's quite a few references indicating that Jesus actually existed (creation of the earth, casting down the devil, speaking to Moses, mourning over the prophets that Jerusalem killed) before he physically existed.

Matthew 23:37 KJV
(37) O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Revelation 12:9 + Isaiah 14:12 + Luke 10:17-18 KJV
(9) And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
(12) How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
(17) And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
(18) And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

John 1:1, 3, 14 KJV
(1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
(3) All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
(14) And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

John 8:57-58 KJV
(57) Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
(58) Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

John 17:5 KJV
(5) And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Colossians 1:15-16 KJV
(15) Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
(16) For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Isaiah 48:12-13 + Revelation 1:17-18 KJV
(12) Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.
(13) Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.
(17) And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
(18) I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

When the volume of references reach that level and amount, it becomes less plausible that these are all misunderstood coincidence. So far (above) I've got a running count of seven. Maybe more or maybe less depending on how they are grouped or tallied (by styles of reference or by passages?)

 

[Silent Hunter]

I got that you don't know how to spell "John"...

I got it that you have never seen "GJohn" used as shorthand for "Gospel of John" (it's ok if you face-palm yourself, :chuckle.

… and this:

I find it interesting trinitarians say, "The bible is filled with figurative (metaphorical) language", EXCEPT FOR verses such as John 1:1-18.

Which doesn't make sense at all, because everyone on this board acknowledges figurative language within John 1:1-18, and everyone on this board also recognizes that the Bible contains both literal and figurative language, just as we use both literal and figurative language in our everyday communications.

So please, more specific?

I didn't say ALL of John 1:1-18 was/is metaphorical. Certainly (almost) everyone recognizes metaphor in the passage. The problem exists on which parts trinitarians interpret as metaphor and which parts trinitarians interpret as literal. I think you are intentionally "playing dumb" to further the conversation, not to be confrontational.

Here again is GJohn 1:1-18. Which phrases are literal? Which phrases are metaphor?

"1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him; and without him was not anything made that hath been made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in the darkness; and the darkness apprehended it not. 6 There came a man, sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for witness, that he might bear witness of the light, that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the light, but came that he might bear witness of the light. 9 There was the true light, even the light which lighteth every man, coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and they that were his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to become children of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father), full of grace and truth. 15 John beareth witness of him, and crieth, saying, This was he of whom I said, He that cometh after me is become before me: for he was before me. 16 For of his fulness we all received, and grace for grace. 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."

Convince me the trinitarian interpretation (Jesus is LITERALLY the "word of god" made flesh) and not as Jesus repeatedly and consistently declares throughout GJohn that he was sent to DELIVER the "word of god".