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Trinity Proof Scriptures
- Thread starter Mixed_Brown
- Start date
I'm not following you...
The only other username I've had was MasterWhiteWolf, which I had Knight change shortly after joining TOL to JudgeRightly.
I joined in 2015.
This is the only account I've ever had.
:thumb:
:first:
Mixed_Brown
New member
Let me just say I am trying to be a sincere as possible. This is one of the responses I feared I would get from creating this thread. You know I'm non trinitarian so your trying to attack what I'm saying rather than listening to what I'm asking.
Let me try and clarify.
Trinitarians (As a whole) use many scriptures to teach the trinity. Some of these clearly are being misused.
See post no.1 for examples
I am asking trinitarians (and non) to be honest and state which scriptures are often used to defend the trinity, but are being interpreted incorrectly in doing so? ( I didn't say you cant use other scriptures to try and prove the trinity, but there clearly are some that shouldn't be used. I even gave 2 examples)
The burden of proof would be on me, if that is what I was debating, I'm not. I clearly stated I'm not debating whether the trinity is true.
See the 1st post,if you are actually interested in the question I asked?
Please can I ask that instead of reply to my post with pro trinity idology, you please read what I asked and the examples I gave.
I believe we should all be as honest as possible. If you cant be honest about these scriptures that I highlighted, then how can anyone be who reads this thread that is looking for truth, ever believe that you will be honest about the other things you teach.
Maybe in the future we can debate the trinity in another thread, but for now let want to discuss the question I asked please
Kind Regards
Mixed
I don't consider 1 John 5:7 to be inspired Scripture, but a verse that was added later, either in full or in part.
Also, have you noticed that not once have I used that verse to defend my beliefs.
Of course there aren't, not explicitly stated, at least. Just like there are no scriptures that state explicitly other things that are true.
But once again, you're missing the forest for the trees. Looking to individual verses instead of getting a grasp of what the entirety of Scripture says, an overview, if you will.
Something that Trinitarians do not disagree with, so what's your point?
Once again:
If the verse had said, "ONLY YOU, the true God," you would have a case against the position that God is triune.
But it does NOT say that.
It says, "know You [The Father], the only true God."
"Only" is describing God, not "You."
We Trinitarians believe there is only one God. He is Father, Son, Holy Spirit, three Persons.
The Father is the only true God.
The Son is the only true God.
The Holy Spirit is the only true God.
To say otherwise is to make an argument from silence (fallacious logic), that since scripture only says that "the Father is the only true God," but does not say the same about the Son and the Holy Spirit, therefore the Son is not also the only true God, and the Holy Spirit is not also the only true God.
The LORD our God, the LORD is one.
The YHWH our Elohim, the YHWH is echad.
Echad means one of unity, a plurality, like several people are one group, not of singularity, like a single person is one person.
The ending "-im" in Hebrew indicates a plurality, like with cherub and cherubim, seraph and seraphim. Elohim is the plural form of "El", which is the singular form of the word for God. Ellah indicates duality. Elohim is more than two, a plurality, yet still one.
Which is why, from the very first verse in the Bible, Moses wrote...
Right Divider
Body part
To use clueless to describe keypurr would be a terrible insult to the word clueless.
musterion
Well-known member
Sorry! That was meant for mixed brown.
All's good then
Fair point.
Awesome! I respect that level of honesty ..... but not all your trinitarian friends are that honest ..... which was the point of the OP.
Sorry, "of course there aren't" is completely unacceptable for a Doctrine that is the most important in ALL the Gospel. And, this is in STARK CONTRAST to the CLEAR, CONSISTENT message that ONLY Jehovah is God.... ONLY the Father is God.
How can you justify the vacuum of verses that state your premise, with the VAST quantities of Scriptures that contradict your premise??
Sorry, that criticism goes to the trinity/oneness theories.JR said:
You just admitted there are NONE that explicitly state your premise!
Of course it does. The verse plainly states that eternal life = 1) knowing that the Father is "the ONLY true God" 2) knowing that Jesus was sent by the only true God.JR said:
NOW YOUR DENYING THAT THE FATHER IS GOD??????????JR said:
Sorry, all these coincidences don't offset Jehovah's words, and Christ's words.
Deut 18:17-19 And Jehovah said unto me, They have well said that which they have spoken.
18 I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee; and I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.
John 12:49-50 For I spake not from myself; but the Father that sent me, He hath given me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that His commandment is life eternal: the things therefore which I speak, even as the Father hath said unto me, so I speak.
John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my words: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's who sent me.
musterion
Well-known member
Right Divider
Body part
A Father without a child is not a Father.
Please show us "God the Father" in the old testament.
Correct;
Luke 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.
Sure.RD said:
Isa 64:8 But now, O Jehovah, thou art our Father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.
1 Chron 29:10-11 Wherefore David blessed Jehovah before all the assembly; and David said, Blessed be thou, O Jehovah, the God of Israel our father, for ever and ever. 11 Thine, O Jehovah, is the greatness, and the power, and the glory, and the victory, and the majesty: for all that is in the heavens and in the earth (is thine); thine is the kingdom, O Jehovah, and thou art exalted as head above all.
So, Artaxerxes being called "king of kings" ... coincidence or he is God?
Nebuchadnezzar being called "king of kings" ... coincidence or he is God?
You are desperately defending a ludicrous, unscriptural theory.
musterion
Well-known member
You are so ignorant you can't even ask the right questions.
Right Divider
Body part
So you cannot tell the difference between the first created man (from the dust of the ground, Gen 2:7) and the WORD (Who was God, John 1:1) that was made flesh (John 1:14)? Got it.
In what SENSE is "our Father" used in Isaiah? "THOU ARE OUR POTTER"... again referring to CREATED beings, unlike the WORD, Who was God, made flesh
Even the unbelieving Jews of Jesus' day understood Jesus' claim about HIS Father:
Joh 5:17-18 KJV But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. (18) Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
Note carefully that Jesus does not say OUR Father,... but MY Father.
I think you'll find that I'm a very honest person.
And so you're going to assume that because of a few, all of them are not honest?
Hasty generalization, much?
This is a non-sequitur. Also an argument from silence.
Using this logic, you could argue that we shouldn't call the Bible the "Holy Bible" because the phrase isn't found in scripture.
Misquoting the Bible doesn't make your argument valid.
If anything, it shows you're dishonest, the opposite of what you are seeking from your opponents.
The verse says "You, the only true God," not "only You, the true God," and not "You only, the true God."
Again, an argument from silence is a logical fallacy.
You are asserting that because the Bible does not state explicitly that "Jesus (the Son) and the Holy Spirit are God," that they cannot be God.
I haven't seen you quote one verse (that is, from inspired scripture) that I don't agree with completely.
Considering that I (and Musty and RD and W2G) are posting a group of scriptures that as a whole show Jesus to be God, whereas if you were to look at them individually, they don't really say very much about His deity.
Yup, because the Bible is more than just explicit statements of truth to be cherry picked to make any argument a person likes.
For example, if I wanted to, I could advocate any number of sins with just the phrase uttered by Jesus Himself: "Go and do likewise."
Of course, that would be wicked, so...
My point is this: looking at individual verses, even lots of individual verses at the same time, won't do you much good unless you have the context to understand what they mean as a group.
Please show where I stated that the Father was not God.
I think you'll find the opposite.
Try not to cut out so much of my post so that you don't miss important parts that might dismantle your argument before you make it.
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Dartman, I'd like to challenge you on something.
Back when I was in middle school, 8th grade, I believe, I was in math class trying to understand something, and I made the argument to my teacher, if I don't understand something, how can I remember/learn/know it.
My teacher, who was and probably still is far wiser than I am, told me that first you must have the knowledge of something, and then you can begin to understand it. I have kept this in mind since then, and if I'm being honest with you, I've seen that concept show up elsewhere as well throughout my life.
Here is my challenge to you.
Try to learn what the Trinity doctrine actually teaches. Try to learn the ins and outs of the position. Then, once you know what the position is, or at least have a basic grasp of what it says, at that point, try to show how the position is flawed, if you can. That's assuming you haven't accepted it as your own position, of course.
If you don't have knowledge of a concept, how could you ever hope to show how it's wrong?
Isaiah 44
6 Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel,and his redeemer the Lord of hosts;I am the first, and I am the last;and beside me there is no God.
Revelation 1 KJV
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Revelation 22 KJV
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Christ rejectors: It really does not mean that, you see....
1 Samuel 2 KJV
6 The LORD killeth, and maketh alive:he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up.
John 2 KJV
19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. 20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? 21 But he spake of the temple of his body. 22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.
John 11 KJV
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
John 10 KJV
17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. 18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
Christ rejectors: Well, that does not really mean that He is God, you see, well, uh, urr, ....he is just a servant, you see, uh, urr...
Ah, the highly persuasive "personal attack", employed when you REALLY don't want to answer the questions.
You should go back to Jesus' words, and see what he teaches regarding calling other people names.
genuineoriginal
New member
Maybe it is a list of scriptures that should not be used?
I was discussing the OP, which I didn't write.. so this isn't about ANY assumptions I have made.
Hasty generalization, much?
It isn't required for salvation to use the title "Holy Bible", your point is the true non sequitur.JR said:
I wasn't quoting, any more than you were with your warped comments.JR said:
Which shows you're attempting to obfuscate.
Those mean precisely the same thing.JR said:
Jesus praying to his Father, and saying;
John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
is CLEARLY discussing two phrases, as I outlined.
Gotta head into town, I plan to address the rest later.