Theology Club: Total Depravity

intojoy · Oct 25, 2013

glorydaz said:
I'm pretty sure Galations is referring to the Fruit of the Holy Spirit manifest through us. It's the Peace of God, the JOY of the Spirit, the LOVE of God..... You may be saying the same thing, I'm not sure.

I would think the spirit of man is more our purified conscience ....which has been purified by faith is the spirit of man that now connects and is enlightened by the Spirit of God.

2 Corinthians 5:11

Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

1 Timothy 3:9

Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.

I used to automatically accept that this was the fruit of the HS until I was shown that spirit in that passage can be taken either way. It would be axiomatic that the HS is all of these attributes however the context is a contrast between the flesh ours and the spirit ours. My previous quote that which is born of God cannot sin is directly related in my observation.

He that is in the flesh cannot please God is speaking to born again believers teaching that we can choose to operate in the old man. The battle between the flesh and the spirit is a battle for the control of the will.

I respect your opinion as I have respected the same points that you made by others over the years. They do not satisfy my questions but they are only questions to be revealed as completely as can be to created beings when we physically inhabit the glorification we positionally already own.

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intojoy · Oct 25, 2013

Angel4Truth said:
True but doesnt adress what was stated. Its possible to act unrighteously without 'sinning' unless you ignore these:

Ephesians 4:29 Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear. 30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice.…

If one could not act unrighteously as a believer, that wouldnt be there. I know, those verses are issues for the calvanist... since one wouldnt be able to greive the spirit without a will.

I think it addresses the comparison (unfair in my view but ok) of being a slave to sin with salves of righteousness. We all sin every day. Believers sin and unbelievers sin. The difference is that the believer because of positional truth in Christ has the capacity to serve God righteously and the believer has a capacity to sin too. The unbeliever or unsaved person has only one capacity and that is to be unrighteous.

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Dialogos · Oct 25, 2013

glorydaz said:
Could you show me a verse in which we can find "spiritually dead"?

Ephesians 2:1.

Unless you are going to argue that Paul meant they were physically dead, the only other logical alternative is that they were spiritually dead.

Glorydaz said:
Man's spirit hears and sees and is a candle of the Lord.

Proverbs 20:11
Even a child is known by his doings, whether his work be pure, and whether it be right. The hearing ear, and the seeing eye, the LORD hath made even both of them.

Sure people have consciences that tell them whether their works are pure and right or wicked and wrong.

What do you think this proves, that mankind is born spiritually alive? Because that's not what that verse says.

Proverbs 20:27
The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly.

Which only means that God sees the heart, not that the heart is spiritually living apart from Christ.

Glorydaz said:
How can a man have a contrite spirit if it's dead?

Isaiah 66:2
For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.

By God giving that person a heart of flesh (Ezekiel 11:19)

Glorydaz said:
How can the spirit of man know the things of man if his spirit is dead?

1 Corinthians 2:11
For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

If you would just look at the context of 1 Cor 2 you would realize that it does no help to your theology.

Man can know his own silly dead thoughts just fine. Its the gospel he can't understand apart from the intervening Spirit of God.

Glorydaz said:
That candle which all men have is a direct line to God...alive and active until it is seared.

Nope, you have read way to much into that passage. The candle of man's spirit allows God to see the inward heart of a man, and that's all that verse says.

Nothing about being alive and active.

Dialogos · Oct 25, 2013

Angel4Truth said:
The book was "The gospel according to the apostles" , as far as the page number, sorry im not re-reading it right now to get that for you.

It was the last book i read by MacArthur because of his teaching on election and predestination - its abject arrogance on salvation and his claim that man can do nothing but sin.

It was that book that led me to study Calvinism.I know exactly what i read and why i never purchased another book by him.

I was blown away that he could understand the bible so well on other issues ("the gospel according to Jesus" was an excellent book which led to me getting that other one) but, could totally drop the ball on this issue (total depravity) and claim lack of free will in ability to seek God when its all over the scriptures.

So according to you, he (MacArthur) doesn't understand calvanist teaching.

No, I just think you have misquoted the book and/or misunderstood the point MacArthur was teaching.

You have pretty well demonstrated that you don't understand either Calvinism or total depravity.

And you have pretty well demonstrated that you aren't willing to listen to others who understand both and are willing to help you learn what Calvinists believe and what Total Depravity really is.

Incidentally, its not just Calvinists who believe in total depravity, if you don't believe in total depravity you are considered by most Christians to be outside orthodox Christianity having embraced the heresy of pelagianism.

intojoy · Oct 26, 2013

Dialogos said:
No, I just think you have misquoted the book and/or misunderstood the point MacArthur was teaching.

You have pretty well demonstrated that you don't understand either Calvinism or total depravity.

And you have pretty well demonstrated that you aren't willing to listen to others who understand both and are willing to help you learn what Calvinists believe and what Total Depravity really is.

Incidentally, its not just Calvinists who believe in total depravity, if you don't believe in total depravity you are considered by most Christians to be outside orthodox Christianity having embraced the heresy of pelagianism.

I like him but limited atonement is a logical devopement not a clear biblical teaching.

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Nang · Oct 26, 2013

Proclaiming the Total Depravity of the inherited human nature, is "Gospel Message 101".

Before the presentation of the good news of Jesus Christ, sinners must be told they are in need of a Savior.

The bad news must come before the good news, so that sinners might learn from which they need to be saved!

Natural, unregenerate man, hates to hear this bad news, so they reject this doctrine, for they want to retain the notion of self-righteousness and inner virtue within their selves.

But such a notion is a lie from the devil.

Until the Holy Spirit convicts and convinces any individual of their depravity of nature and their need of the mediation of the Savior, the natural, unsaved sinner will resist this biblical truth with all his being.

Nang

Nang · Oct 26, 2013

intojoy said:
I like him but limited atonement is a logical devopement not a clear biblical teaching.

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Why do you say (Reformers'/Calvinists') doctrine of Limited Atonement is unbiblical?

Arminians teach a form of limited atonement, too. They limit the accomplishment of Christ on the cross, to apply only to those persons who choose to believe in it.

Only Universalists truly teach an unlimited atonement. Are you claiming to be a Universalist? Are Universalists alone biblical in their beliefs?

Nang

intojoy · Oct 26, 2013

Nang said:
Why do you say (Reformers'/Calvinists') doctrine of Limited Atonement is unbiblical?

Arminians teach a form of limited atonement, too. They limit the accomplishment of Christ on the cross, to apply only to those persons who choose to believe in it.

Only Universalists truly teach an unlimited atonement. Are you claiming to be a Universalist? Are Universalists alone biblical in their beliefs?

Nang

Because this is an antimony. How can divine sovereignty and human responsibility be in harmony?

There are more than just two options of Arminianism and Calvinism.

I take the middle position of

Total depravity

Unlimited atonement

Irresistible grace

Perseverance of God

Universalism believes that all people are saved, that's exactly what I don't believe in because one has to have faith to believe in order to be saved.

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Ask Mr. Religion · Oct 27, 2013

Angel4Truth said:
Exactly, i just said what John MacArthur says it means, and he said total depravity means man can do nothing but sin. I didnt say anything about someone being as evil as they can be.

You would need to read the full treatment. MacArthur is correct, as all Calvinists believe that the unregenerate can only sin more or sin less.

This does not mean these persons cannot perform acts of civil goodness, such as giving to the poor, helping others, etc. But, again, if you read the full discussion of total depravity, the facts are that these acts are all performed with the wrong motives by the unregenerate, for they do not do them for the glory of God. Yes, they sin even when they perform these civil good acts. So when we are talking about "good" let's make sure we clarify "good" in society's eyes versus "good" in God's.

EDIT: I should have read the rest of the responses following your post that I have quoted. It is clear that others have pointed out to you what I just did redundantly.

The real difference between you and I is that I see the Good News being preached in a graveyard while you see it being preached in an hospital ward.

AMR

intojoy · Oct 27, 2013

Yea, just look at some of the music some heathens make. Some incredible sounds and songs.

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Angel4Truth · Oct 27, 2013

Ask Mr. Religion said:
The real difference between you and I is that I see the Good News being preached in a graveyard while you see it being preached in an hospital ward.

AMR

Luke 5:31 Jesus answered them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick.

intojoy · Oct 27, 2013

Angel4Truth said:
Luke 5:31 Jesus answered them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick.

Liked

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Nang · Oct 27, 2013

Angel4Truth said:
Luke 5:31 Jesus answered them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick.

Only dead people are brought to life by the resurrection powers of God.

Such is the saving power of regeneration (being spiritually resurrected and born again from above) performed by God the Holy Spirit, who draws sinners to saving faith in Jesus Christ. (John 3:3; 6:44)

Angel4Truth · Oct 27, 2013

Nang said:
Only dead people are brought to life by the resurrection powers of God.

I guess that means you dont like what Jesus said Himself.

Nang · Oct 27, 2013

Angel4Truth said:
I guess that means you dont like what Jesus said Himself.

And what do you refer to, dear Angel?

Angel4Truth · Oct 27, 2013

Nang said:
And what do you refer to, dear Angel?

What you quoted of mine were His words, not mine that you seem to disagree with. Ill take His word on it though, not yours.

Ask Mr. Religion · Oct 28, 2013

Angel4Truth said:
Luke 5:31 Jesus answered them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick.

You have missed the context and point of this passage, A4T.

Our Lord's aphorism in response to the grumbling of the scribes and Pharisees teaches us that those who are well do not need a doctor because they believe that they are well. Also the sick will usually call a physician to attend to them. But, in this situation (read the context of the preceding verses), however, Jesus as the physician does not wait for the sick to come to him to be restored to health; he goes hunting for them.

This verse actually teaches that it is God and God alone that is the author and finisher of our faith. God regenerates the spritually dead, God gives them a new heart such that even their subsequent readiness to believe and their belief is from God.

AMR

Angel4Truth · Oct 28, 2013

I disagree and heres why - see the next verse:

31And Jesus answered and said to them, "It is not those who are well who need a physician, but those who are sick. 32 "I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance."

You call the righteous the elect already chosen, well that verse says he came for the sinners to call them to repent.

Ask Mr. Religion · Oct 28, 2013

A4T,

There is no irony in this response, as if the righteous are only those who think they are righteous. The issue is about the sinners, not the righteous.

In the passage you rely upon we must examine the whole counsel of Scripture to understand the meaning and not take one verse and use it as a locus classicus. “I have come” expresses our Lord's sense of purpose (see 7: 34, 48 – 49; 15: 1 – 2, 7, 10; 19: 7, 10). What Jesus is doing is perfectly natural and to be expected in light of Ezek 34: 1 – 16. As the proper role of the physician is to tend to the sick, the proper role of the shepherd is to rescue scattered sheep and bind up the injured and strengthen the weak.

The matter at hand here is who exactly are His sheep? We know the answer from the following:
Psalm 34:22, Isaiah 53:8, Matthew 1:21, Matthew 20:28, Matthew 26:28, Luke 1:68, Luke 2:1-2, Luke 19:10, John 3:16 (the Father gave His Son for whom? - according to this verse the Son was given for whoever believes in Him (the believing ones) not for the ones not believing in Him), John 5:13, John 6:35-40, John 10:11, John 10:14 -18, John 10:24-29, John 12:32, John 17:1-11, John 17:20, John 17:24-26, Acts 20:28, Romans 5:8-10, Romans 5:18, Romans 8:32-34, Galatians 3:13, Ephesians 1:3-4, Ephesians 1:7, Ephesians 1:13, Ephesians 2:15-16, Ephesians 5:25-27, Hebrews 2:9, Hebrews 2:17, Hebrews 3:1, Hebrews 9:12, Hebrews 9:28, Hebrews 10:14, Colossians 1:21-22, 2 Corinthians 5:14-15, 2 Corinthians 5:18-19, 1 Timothy 1:15, 2 Timothy 2:4-6, 2 Peter 3:9, 1 John 2:1-2, 1 John 4:14, Titus 2:14, Revelation 5:9.

Eating with these people is a means of calling them to repentance. Unlike the more strident message of John, who shouted that the people had better repent or they would be consumed by fire, Jesus calls them to repentance by communing with them, which symbolically conveys their acceptance by God. He places an emphasis on what God is already doing in proclaiming the good news that now is the time of salvation. The free offer of the gospel is made to all persons, but only those regenerated by God will respond. The free offer is a well-meant offer.

 Now, you may complain, in light of the Calvinist's view of total depravity, “What use is the offer as we cannot receive the offer?”

We respond:
“Whose fault is this that you lack ability? It is not God’s fault. You have a sure ground to believe. His word is a warrant good enough. The promises are free enough; the motives sweet enough."

The gospel brings Christ so near them, that they must either say, yea or nay; it is not so much, ‘I cannot,’ as ‘I will not believe’; and that will be found a wilful and malicious refusal. This points sinners to the root of their inability which is their own sinful and willful rejection of Christ’s offer.

Yes, to reason otherwise, as you would do given total depravity, is a most unreasonable and absurd way of reasoning. For if we accept your view what duty shall we do? We are not of ourselves able to pray, praise, keep the Lord’s Day, nor to do any other commanded duty, so shall we therefore abstain from all duties? Our ability or fitness for duty, is not the rule of our duty, but God’s command.

[FONT=&quot]While man has lost his ability to obey, God has not lost His right to command. Nor does man's inability to obey render the command ineffective. Regenerating grace breaks the heart of stone and inclines the renewed man to obedience.[/FONT]

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ontGrowAutofit/> <w:SplitPgBreakAndParaMark/> <w:EnableOpenTypeKerning/> <w

ontFlipMirrorIndents/> <w:OverrideTableStyleHps/> </w:Compatibility> <m:mathPr> <m:mathFont m:val="Cambria Math"/> <m:brkBin m:val="before"/> <m:brkBinSub m:val="--"/> <m:smallFrac m:val="off"/> <m:dispDef/> <m:lMargin m:val="0"/> <m:rMargin m:val="0"/> <m:defJc m:val="centerGroup"/> <m:wrapIndent m:val="1440"/> <m:intLim m:val="subSup"/> <m:naryLim m:val="undOvr"/> </m:mathPr></w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--> Consider the following:

[FONT=&quot]Is not God unjust to require what men do not have the ability to perform? I answer:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] Yes, God is unjust, unless He first gave the ability to perform what He requires.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] Yes, God is unjust, unless man, by his own will, brought this inability upon himself.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] Yes, God is unjust in requiring that which man cannot perform, unless such a requirement which is impossible to meet is designed to lead him to acknowledge and deplore his inability.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]This is the real problem with the multitude of efforts by those who come running on the scene of human turmoil with this sentimental pity for man in his present condition. They immediately begin to charge God with being unjust.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]When we see sickness, death, war, pain, murder, rape, robbery, and lawlessness we ask, “How did this come about?” The answer is: Sin! Sin! Sin! Man’s sin! How did the prodigal son come to feeding pigs? By living in sin![/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]If I believed that God made man like he is, and then condemned him for what he is, I would curse God and die—such a God would be a monster. But instead, “Truly, this only I have found: that God made man upright, but they have sought out many schemes” (Eccl. 7:29; emphasis mine).[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Who but God can fully comprehend how an action that was known of God before it was done can be freely performed by man? However, our inability to understand how something should actually come to be is not sufficient ground for affirming that it cannot be.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]It should not surprise us or discourage us that there is divine foreknowledge of all human actions on the one hand and free agency on the other hand.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]We have a similar problem with God’s commanding men to do what they do not have the will or ability to do since they must act in accordance with their nature. For example, when God commanded Lazarus to “come forth from the grave,” he was dead and did not have the ability to obey or respond to our Lord’s command—unless God did something for him.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Another example is the poor man in the gospels who had been powerless for thirty-eight years and had no native ability to obey our Lord’s command to “take up your bed and walk.” The power came from the one who gave the command.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]We are considering these two truths: (1) Man is a free agent and is responsible for his actions; (2) Man’s actions are foreknown by an omniscient God. Both of these truths are clearly set out in the Holy Scripture many times in the same verse. For example, in Acts 2:23 we read, “Him [Christ], being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death” (emphasis mine).[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]This verse clearly teaches that the crucifixion of our Lord was planned, predicted, and determined before it happened and all the devils in hell or men on earth could not keep Jesus from the cross—it was determined by a sovereign God. Yet at the same time, wicked men—acting freely—were charged with this wicked act.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]In Acts 4:24—30, God puts these two truths side by side without apology or explanation. Here this apparent contradiction and seeming conflict is expressed in a prayer.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] “So when they heard that, they raised their voice to God with one accord and said: ‘Lord, You are God, who made heaven and earth and the sea, and all that is in them, who by the mouth of Your servant David have said: “Why did the nations rage, and the people plot vain things? The kings of the earth took their stand, and the rulers were gathered together against the LORD and against His Christ.” For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done. Now, Lord, look on their threats, and grant to Your servants that with all boldness they may speak Your word, by stretching out Your hand to heal, and that signs and wonders may be done through the name of Your holy Servant Jesus.”[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Peter and John were in prison when they prayed this prayer. Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were said to be carrying out what God had purposed and determined was to be done before it was actually done.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]In the first truth we see that God is one hundred percent sovereign in planning and determining. At the same time the verse teaches that wicked men are one hundred percent responsible for their wicked deeds.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]If we examine these two truths separately, we will conclude that from Genesis to Revelation the Bible teaches that the God of the Bible is one hundred percent sovereign—sovereign in creation, sovereign in redemption, and sovereign in providence—and that from Genesis to Revelation the Bible teaches that man is one hundred percent responsible for his sin. Therefore, we have no alternative but to believe both are true, even though with our finite minds we cannot reconcile them or harmonize them.[/FONT]

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oNotPromoteQF/> <w:LidThemeOther>EN-US</w:LidThemeOther> <w:LidThemeAsian>X-NONE</w:LidThemeAsian> <w:LidThemeComplexScript>HE</w:LidThemeComplexScript> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w

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ontFlipMirrorIndents/> <w:OverrideTableStyleHps/> <w:UseFELayout/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> <m:mathPr> <m:mathFont m:val="Cambria Math"/> <m:brkBin m:val="before"/> <m:brkBinSub m:val="--"/> <m:smallFrac m:val="off"/> <m:dispDef/> <m:lMargin m:val="0"/> <m:rMargin m:val="0"/> <m:defJc m:val="centerGroup"/> <m:wrapIndent m:val="1440"/> <m:intLim m:val="subSup"/> <m:naryLim m:val="undOvr"/> </m:mathPr></w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]-->[FONT=&quot]When Charles Haddon Spurgeon was asked to reconcile these truths—God’s sovereignty and man’s responsibility— he said, “I never try to reconcile friends—they are both in the Bible.”
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
Src: http://www.reformedreader.org/rbb/reisinger/gwmwfwch04.htm[/FONT]

If you carefully study and examine the Scriptures above, you will soon begin to see how your view needs to be reconciled with what Scripture is clearly teaching us.

AMR

Saved.One.by.Grace · Oct 30, 2013

John MacArthur on Total Depravity

Theology Club: Total Depravity

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