Theology Club: Total Depravity
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Saved.One.by.Grace
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You are correct.
I think if anyone takes the New Testament in it's entirety, they'll see Paul understood the Gospel of Grace, the Gospel Jesus preached, the one we call Calvinism. Paul lived his life as if he had free will, because from his standpoint he did. But Paul also knew the Gospel of Jesus, God's viewpoint, that we refer to as Calvinism. He knew and rejoiced in God's sovereignty. But knowing that did not stop him from evangelizing. That's what God meant him to do. Who can resist God's will unless God allows it? God is sovereign after all.
glorydaz
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I'm sure you've looked at the Greek. Rather, Christ is the Captain, the leader.... the one who takes precedence in faith and is thus the perfect example of it. You can't separate faith from belief, and God does not believe for us.
Dialogos
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That's not what that verse means.
The Greek word, as I assume you have looked up, is αρχηγος and here, as well as in Hebrews 2:10, it means "one who begins or originates."
God doesn't believe for us but He:Glorydaz said:
A) Gives us the capacity to believe.
B) Changes our hearts so that we can believe.
C) Opens our blind eyes so that we can understand what it is we must believe.
Saved.One.by.Grace
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We only have faith because of God's grace.
<DIR>Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love that He had for us,
Eph 2:5 made us alive with the Messiah even though we were dead in trespasses. You are saved by grace!
Eph 2:6 Together with Christ Jesus He also raised us up and seated us in the heavens,
Eph 2:7 so that in the coming ages He might display the immeasurable riches of His grace through His kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God's gift--
Eph 2:9 not from works, so that no one can boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are His creation, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared ahead of time so that we should walk in them. [HCSB]
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Nang
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Total Depravity is not "Calvinism." It is the biblical teaching of the consequences of the original sin of Adam.
Adam represented the entire human race, and when Adam sinned, he corrupted all human nature; bringing the sentence of death upon all his offspring.
To deny the total corruption of human nature, is to deny the Word of God.
It is also a denial of the gospel of Jesus Christ, which is the sole remedy for the total depravity of the human race.
Adam represented the entire human race, and when Adam sinned, he corrupted all human nature; bringing the sentence of death upon all his offspring.
To deny the total corruption of human nature, is to deny the Word of God.
It is also a denial of the gospel of Jesus Christ, which is the sole remedy for the total depravity of the human race.
That last part about denying the gospel? No. People don't have to know what total depravity means before they can believe the gospel. That's so harsh.
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God's response to total depravity is not how strict and Hyper-Calvinists portray it - that God simply forces salvation on the elect so they are saved whether they want Him to or not. Rather He gives them divine enabling, and because of this divine enabling they do respond. They do exercise their will. Until they exercise their will, they are just as lost as the non elect. They have no salvation until they exercise their will. But it is a divine enabling that enables them to exercise the will and because the grace of God is such, they will always respond correctly.
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God makes them willing in the day of His power...He is IRresistable....Cornelius belies total depravity somewhat but reveals man's total inability in the matter of salvation...Total depravity actually never has meant that man is totally depraved and is a misnomer...it ought to be scrubbed.
Saved.One.by.Grace
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Isaiah 64:6
<SUP class=versenum>6 </SUP>For all of us have become like one who is <SUP class=crossreference value='(A)'></SUP>unclean,
And all our <SUP class=crossreference value='(B)'></SUP>righteous deeds are like a filthy garment;
And all of us <SUP class=crossreference value='(C)'></SUP>wither like a leaf,
And our <SUP class=crossreference value='(D)'></SUP>iniquities, like the wind, take us away. [NASB]
Romans 3:3-10
<SUP class=versenum>3 </SUP>What then? If <SUP class=crossreference value='(A)'></SUP>some <SUP class=footnote sizset="26" value='[a]' sizcache08432674751558887="5">[a]</SUP>did not believe, their <SUP class=footnote sizset="27" value='[b]' sizcache08432674751558887="5">[b]</SUP>unbelief will not nullify the faithfulness of God, will it? <SUP class=versenum>4 </SUP><SUP class=crossreference value='(B)'></SUP>May it never be! Rather, let God be found true, though every man be found <SUP class=crossreference value='(C)'></SUP>a liar, as it is written,
“<SUP class=crossreference value='(D)'></SUP>That You may be justified in Your words,
And prevail when You <SUP class=footnote sizset="28" value='[c]' sizcache08432674751558887="5">[c]</SUP>are judged.”
<SUP class=versenum>5 </SUP>But if our unrighteousness <SUP class=footnote sizset="29" value='[d]' sizcache08432674751558887="5">[d]</SUP><SUP class=crossreference value='(E)'></SUP>demonstrates the righteousness of God, <SUP class=crossreference value='(F)'></SUP>what shall we say? The God who inflicts wrath is not unrighteous, is He? (<SUP class=crossreference value='(G)'></SUP>I am speaking in human terms.) <SUP class=versenum>6 </SUP><SUP class=crossreference value='(H)'></SUP>May it never be! For otherwise, how will <SUP class=crossreference value='(I)'></SUP>God judge the world? <SUP class=versenum>7 </SUP>But if through my lie <SUP class=crossreference value='(J)'></SUP>the truth of God abounded to His glory, <SUP class=crossreference value='(K)'></SUP>why am I also still being judged as a sinner? <SUP class=versenum>8 </SUP>And why not say (as we are slanderously reported and as some claim that we say), “<SUP class=crossreference value='(L)'></SUP>Let us do evil that good may come”? <SUP class=footnote sizset="30" value='[e]' sizcache08432674751558887="5">[e]</SUP>Their condemnation is just.
<SUP class=versenum>9 </SUP>What then? <SUP class=footnote sizset="31" value='[f]' sizcache08432674751558887="5">[f]</SUP><SUP class=crossreference value='(M)'></SUP>Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both <SUP class=crossreference value='(N)'></SUP>Jews and <SUP class=crossreference value='(O)'></SUP>Greeks are <SUP class=crossreference value='(P)'></SUP>all under sin; <SUP class=versenum>10 </SUP>as it is written,
“<SUP class=crossreference value='(Q)'></SUP>There is none righteous, not even one;
<SUP class=versenum>11</SUP>There is none who understands,
There is none who seeks for God;
<SUP class=versenum>12 </SUP>All have turned aside, together they have become useless;
There is none who does good,
There is not even one.” [NASB]
So how can we be saved? We cannot on our own. We are saved by His grace through faith, and that faith not of ourselves that we can boast of. It is God-given faith as the bible states. Even our good works after our salvation are from God. Reference Ephesians 2:8-10.
Ask Mr. Religion
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You are confusing "total depravity" with "utter depravity". The latter is not the same as the former. Scripture does not teach we are utterly depraved, only totally depraved. We are not as evil as we could possibly be, especially given the restraing grace of God, else the streets woud run with blood.
Good insights from MacArthur:
Furthermore, because of human depravity, there is nothing in a fallen, reprobate sinner that desires God or is capable of responding in faith.
MacArthur, John (2005-03-08). The Gospel According to the Apostles (p. 44).
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Unregenerate sinners have no life by which they can respond to spiritual stimuli.No amount of love, beseeching, or spiritual truth can summon a response. People apart from God are the ungrateful dead, spiritual zombies, death-walkers, unable even to understand the gravity of their situation. They are lifeless. They may go through the motions of life, but they do not possess it. They are dead even while they live (cf. 1 Tim. 5:6).
MacArthur, John (2005-03-08). The Gospel According to the Apostles (p. 47).
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Total depravity does not mean that every person’s lifestyle is equally corrupt and wicked, or that sinners are always as bad as they can be. It means that mankind is corrupt in every regard. The unredeemed are depraved in their minds, their hearts, their wills, their emotions, and their physical beings. They are utterly incapable of anything but sin. Even if they perform humanitarian, philanthropic, or religious deeds, they do them for their own glory, not God’s (cf. 1 Cor. 10:31). Sinners may not always sin as grotesquely as possible, but they cannot do anything to please God or earn His favor. Sin has tainted every aspect of their being. That is what it means to be spiritually dead.
MacArthur, John (2005-03-08). The Gospel According to the Apostles (pp. 47-48).
AMR
14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, one that worshipped God, heard us (general call): whose heart the Lord opened (effective call or divine enabling) to give heed unto the things which were spoken by Paul.
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Yes. The kindest man I've ever met was unsaved. His name was Junius Narvardos. A prisoner of war in WWII to the Japanese, he endured extreme cruelty during his captivity. I met him after sleeping in the Broadway Theater in downtown Los Angeles. Kicked me out at 4:30 am with the other bums who could pay the $1.50 fare, I bumped into him, the 76 year old guy called pops. After a quick exchange which notified pop that I was homeless he gave me his phone number and address. The year was 1984. Pops had housed war veterans all of his life. A self made millionaire, had three 20 room mansions in the downtown are filled with homeless war vets. After retiring back to his native Brazil, some of the vets got drunk and burned one of the houses to the ground and pop's son an alcoholic, bankrupted the family fortune. Pops was back from retirement and was working for a former competitor, renting a three bedroom house on Martin Luther King Blvd and 3rd Ave with 23 veterans living there. I moved in and stayed for a year. But maintained a relationship for about a decade. Pops never had a sip of alcohol, was a catholic and a democrat. He helped many many people but refused to talk "religion" or "politics".
Unless he allowed another than myself to share the truth with him, pop died unsaved.
You are right AMR about the total depravity of man but you cannot go beyond what is written to proclaim a limited atonement because the bible at face value says that the purpose of the atonement was to provide salvation for all not to save all.
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Ask Mr. Religion
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No, if I believed this then I would also be compelled to believe that "It is finished" only meant "I is potentially finished". Our Lord's passive and active obedience was fo His sheep, nothing more, nothing less. The magnitude of that which was laid on the altar of the atonement could certainly cover each and every man's sin, past, present, and future, but this was not the pupose of the atonement. If it were, all would be saved. All are not, so clearly, even with your basic "face value" hermeneutic, all does not mean each and every person.
AMR
I'm sorry we can't go any deeper together - you're a nice guy
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My gripe is not so much with the doctrine as expounded as with the title of it which across the board is misunderstood and which grieves christians, it is these kind of things which act as a barrier to people's understanding of the doctrines of grace...if the doctrine can be expounded with precision why can't it's title be more precise?
Total Incapability would be more descriptive.
But Cornelius shows that man is capable of good deeds and there is no indication that he was vainglorious....yet in the matter of salvation of course he was incapable.....and thanks for the exposition.
Saved.One.by.Grace
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My gripe is not so much with the doctrine as expounded as with the title of it which across the board is misunderstood and which grieves christians, it is these kind of things which act as a barrier to people's understanding of the doctrines of grace...if the doctrine can be expounded with precision why can't it's title be more precise?
Total Incapability would be more descriptive.
But Cornelius shows that man is capable of good deeds and there is no indication that he was vainglorious....yet in the matter of salvation of course he was incapable.....and thanks for the exposition.
The title comes from a letter in an acronym, a memory aid. It's not meant to be an exhaustive study of the biblical concept. The concept explains man's fallen state. If man could save himself/herself through "works", Jesus' death serves no purpose. Most of my family died believing their works would save them, or at least get them to purgatory.
Total inability would fit the acronym
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