Torah and are you Torah observant?
- Thread starter Jacob
- Start date
Nihilo.
I may be able to help you. Let me know as you are in a conversation with someone else. You had a reason to disagree with this person and you might first disagree with me, though I was unable to tell. I hope that you will agree with the scriptures. My question for you would be if a murderer should die according to the law. It may be that you do not know the law well enough to answer this question. Some people say yes with scripture without the law of Moses.
Shalom.
Jacob
I may be able to help you. Let me know as you are in a conversation with someone else. You had a reason to disagree with this person and you might first disagree with me, though I was unable to tell. I hope that you will agree with the scriptures. My question for you would be if a murderer should die according to the law. It may be that you do not know the law well enough to answer this question. Some people say yes with scripture without the law of Moses.
Shalom.
Jacob
Was it this "interpretation" that is spoken of in Colossians 2:14 (KJV) as being "contrary to us?"
Are you joking? Are you actually suggesting that when the Old Testament says to kill, that it doesn't mean literally kill?
Should an adulterer be put to death according to the law? Yes I'm answering a question with a question because we recently discussed this matter on another thread of yours. So should adulterers be killed, according to the law of Moses?
Shalom.
The early church was entirely Jewish. So are Christians Gentiles? If Christians are Gentiles or no longer Jews, then I am not a Christian.
Shalom.
Jacob
Shalom.
Yes. I made a thread for this discussion. We would need to discuss in all cases and with all or the totality of scripture if you object to my answer or if you want to discuss this further. In what case or cases would someone need to die for adultery?
Shalom.
Jacob
Examine the Scripture that says there were Gentile converts to the Jewish religion in the Church on day one. Acts 2:10 (KJV) "Jews and proselytes." People like you, now, except they converted to the Jewish faith before the inception of the Church, and you "were" Christian and now you've converted to whatever today's version of Judaism is (i.e., not the same Jewish faith as in AD 33 pre-Pentecost; that faith is gone).
I don't know what you mean. There are around 15 million Jewish people and over 2,000 million Christians, so obviously most Christians cannot be Jews and so are Gentiles. :idunno:
If they commit adultery.
Did it sound like I was joking? I quoted the commandment from the Ten Commandmnets, Exo 20:13 and Deut 5:17, which both employ H7523 רָצחַ ratsach, which is clearly foremost physical in meaning. Do you see any stipulation whatsoever in either one of those statements? Yet I know from what you have said, and from my own studies, that whatever passages you are now speaking about do not contain H7523 רָצחַ ratsach. In fact the only other places you will find ratsach are in passages concerning the "manslayer" or a murderer-killer of mankind, (KJV). You therefore choose death in your carnal understanding of the Torah which is spiritual.
Shalom.
I have said both that I am a proselyte and that I am a Jew.
In Judaism there was the expectation of the coming Messiah, Yeshua. This is my belief. It is why and how I am Jewish, apart from accepting and observing all of Torah.
Is there Jews, Gentiles, and the church?
Were you formerly a Gentile or were you formerly known as a Gentile or seen to be a Gentile?
Were you once a stranger to the covenants, the covenants of promise?
Do you observe the essentials for those who turned to God from among the Gentiles?
Shalom.
Jacob
Sigh. You know the worst discussion you can have on theology and on faith and morals is when someone says it should be translated this way or that way instead of how every Christian Bible has it. It's the worst. Kill means kill.
Ultimately, any offense against chastity. Lust, promiscuity and fornication, the actual act of adultery, masturbation, homosexual offenses, etc. But especially, adultery is married people, engaging in conjugal relations with someone other than their own spouse, or unmarried people, doing the same with someone who is married. And anything approaching that. Intentions count (Mt5:28KJV), but the act is the act, regardless of intention.
Shalom.
Every thought matters.
Adultery is between a man and a woman. Someone you are not married to.
There is a commandment against homosexuality. It is not the same as adultery. However, if the 613 are under the 10, a person may or may not see it this way. Adultery is different, as two men cannot be married to each other and two women cannot be married to each other.
If a married man or a married woman has sex with someone other than their spouse, the person that they are married to, that is adultery and deserving of death. There is no reason, even for singles, to see how close they can get with someone without actually having sex. Also, a relationship without sex can also be wrong. A single person with a married person is adultery, and wrong, too.
Have you thought about when someone is engaged? We must understand God's law.
In what situations should what has occurred result in death?
Also, having more than one wife is potentially a different discussion than sexual immorality or unchastity resulting in divorce or divorce with the grounds of sexual immorality, or adultery, where (in any of these cases) you cannot go back to a previous mate, person, or partner. Only if there was divorce and reconciliation rather than remarriage, whether or not there was adultery before the divorce. With remarriage it may be adultery the way God sees it. Unless your spouse died, for example of natural causes in truth.
We need to know what the Torah and the Law of Moses say if we are going to live by them. Sadly for our society this may be a rude awakening.
Shalom.
Jacob
Only to cavemen who enjoy killing and reading about killing, (for they choose death).
Did the sons of Levi literally slaughter their own family members?
Did the Father bless them for their physical murder and killing?
Apparently so according to you:
Exodus 32:24-29 KJV
24 And I said unto them, Whosoever hath any gold, let them break it off. So they gave it me: then I cast it into the fire, and there came out this calf.
25 And when Moses saw that the people were naked; ( for Aaron had made them naked unto their shame among their enemies: )
26 Then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, Who is on the LORD'S side? let him come unto me. And all the sons of Levi gathered themselves together unto him.
27 And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.
28 And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men.
29 For Moses had said, Consecrate yourselves to day to the LORD, even every man upon his son, and upon his brother; that he may bestow upon you a blessing this day.
Deuteronomy 33:8-10 KJV
8 And of Levi he said, Let thy Thummim and thy Urim be with thy holy one, whom thou didst prove at Massah, and with whom thou didst strive at the waters of Meribah;
9 Who said unto his father and to his mother, I have not seen him; neither did he acknowledge his brethren, nor knew his own children: for they have observed thy word, and kept thy covenant.
10 They shall teach Jacob thy judgments, and Israel thy law: they shall put incense before thee, and whole burnt sacrifice upon thine altar.
So the word of your father is murder-death-kill for a blessing upon a blessing? :nono:
And everything we say, or write.
We've discussed before how there are many moral laws taught by the Catholic Church, I don't know how many, I don't know if someone's already counted them to see how they compare to 613, but it seems like there are closer to 100-1000 than 10-100, but that's honestly more of a feel, and that's using the largest scale estimation method I know of, which is to try to narrow down an estimate to a range of orders of magnitude, an order of magnitude being multiplying by 10 or dividing by 10.1 So there is more than 1-10 moral teachings in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, because the Church bases all of her moral teachings on the 10 Commandments, so there are at least 10, and I know that there are many, many more than 10. So it feels like to me that there are either 10-100 moral commands, or between 100-1000. 613 is between 100-1000, so that would put the Church's teachings on morals in the same league as the Torah. And the Church does see all offenses against chastity under the command to not commit adultery, although also, lust, which is an offense against chastity, is also explained under the command to not covet.
:AMR: 100 years ago this was true.
Agreed on all counts.
Fornication is an offense against chastity and a grave one, deserving of death.
Whatever the Church teaches is a mortal sin; a grave moral offense, which is objective, committed such that the trespasser is justly determined fully guilty of the sin.
I don't know if the Church teaches against polygamy. I think she does, but I'm not sure. If she does teach against it, then it could be that polygamy is an offense against chastity, but I'm not certain, these are guesses.
The Church teaches precisely what the Lord Jesus teaches on the matter; remarriage after divorce is adultery, period, end of story. Those so living in adultery, are not permitted to eat and drink the Lord's body and blood. They are not formally excommunicated, but to my mind, this is excommunication. Do you know who else is not permitted to take communion in Catholic mass? Any non-Catholics, plus anybody who is Catholic, and who has committed a mortal sin, and not confessed and not done penance to reconcile with the Church. Formal excommunication is less common. Mostly, those forbidden to celebrate the Eucharist, the Lord's Supper, are Catholics in a state of mortal sin, including those who've remarried after divorce.
Yes, if that's what we are going to do, yes. Or, someone has to know anyway, if not us. We just have to know who it is, and then we'll just agree with what they teach, rather than rely upon our own understanding, of Scripture.
Not if from the Church. The Church is nothing but good news; all good news. There's nobody who thinks the Christian faith is bad news, in any way---the Christian faith is all good news, no bad news, no uneasy news or questionable news, it's all good, without exception. The Church says we can observe Yahweh's law with all joy, and if we don't experience the Maker's law with unlimited joy, then we're misunderstanding it and Him, and the explanation is found in the Church's teaching on faith, which I believe makes up the bulk of the Church's teaching overall.
We're all sinners, according to the Trinity's law, and there's never been a Church teaching that's said otherwise.
Shalom.
Jacob[/QUOTE]
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Spoiler
So is this like spiritualizing the Scripture? Instead of taking it literally (your word physically), you find the way in which it is spiritually conveying something, and that's how to get around the killing commands, the many lawful commands to kill?
Pluck out your right eye then, as the Master says, and do not think you have the right to spiritualize it or you are nothing more than a hypocrite reading what you want into the text for you own fanciful delusions. Does he say it is not literal anywhere? You need to get busy with your right hand and foot too. And of course your enemies are your family members, those of your own household; you need to start hating your mother and father to follow your version of Messiah: "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple", (Luke 14:26). Don't be a hypocrite; get busy, get to chopping, hacking, hating, and killing. :chuckle: