naatmi
New member
eye for an eye - the fear of God is the beginning of knowledge.
toldailytopic: Why did Jesus need to die?
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
- Start date
MrDeets
TOL Subscriber
Romans 5:18-19,
But I actually like the way DC said it first, since not all in the world have accepted Christ.
I see what you're saying though. :e4e:
naatmi
New member
That's good.
Please bear with this longer post because Romans 5:12-19 is "hard to understand" 2Pet 3:16
No one can correctly understand Romans 5:18-19 until they understand Romans 5:12 "sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned"
Death (symbolic of condemnation) spread to all men because all men followed Adam's example by sinning.
next verse:
"for sin indeed was in the world before the [written] law was given"
How did they all sin if the written law had not been given yet?
"sin is not counted where there is no law." Rom 5:13
So there must have been a non-written law since "all sinned" like Adam. This refers back to chapter two.
"when Gentiles, who do not have the [written] law, by nature do what the [moral aspects of the] law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the [written] law. They show that the work of the [moral aspects of the] law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them" Rom 2:14-15
next verse:
"death reigned from Adam to Moses"
men were condemned even without the written law
"even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam" Rom 5:14
they didn't even break the verbal command given to Adam (because they had no access to the tree anyway).
So every man, by disobeying God's law in his heart and violating his own conscience, has sinned against God. Romans 5:12 says that because we all made choices that we knew were wrong, that's why death (condemnation) spread to all of us. Adam was condemned because he sinned. Likewise, since we have all followed Adam's example by sinning, we have all become condemned just like our father Adam.
This is what the next verses are talking about when they say that Adam "made" us sinners. It is figurative for the fact that we all followed in Adam's footsteps by our own sinful choices.
The whole point of all this stuff about the written law was to refute the Jews who thought righteousness depended on knowledge of the Bible instead of the person's heart. In other words, just like you didn't need the Jewish religion to follow Adam and become a sinner, likewise, you don't need the Jewish religion to follow Jesus Christ and have your sins washed away.
:thumb:
Doesn't mean He didn't take sin itself upon Himself and nail it to the cross.
Charity
New member
Im sure The one's that spat, mocked tortured; whiped an nailed Jesus to the cross are very excited that they were able to wipe the mouth as they where not even disiplined like children after Being Darn right Bad egg's! with a taste for blood.
discusting mask they made for God. to walk free
Krsto
Well-known member
Where do you get your concepts of justice? Where do you get the idea that someone has to be punished for one's sin even if that person is forgiven? Justice does not demand that Jesus die for our sins.
Krsto
Well-known member
SH wasn't displaying ignorance of the subject but brought up a good question.
However, Jesus died for all sin, for all men, for all time. The issue for men now is not what they will do concerning sin, but what they will do concerning Jesus.
He died so that my sins would be forgiven, never to be remembered.
He rose again so that I might live with Him and His Father in His Father's Kingdom.
He rose again so that I might live with Him and His Father in His Father's Kingdom.
Charity
New member
But thou has been persuaded that you to must now choose, yet "having" to put a dead Just man to death; an let a free thief go free is none of the choosing?
Have Nothing to do with the just Man.( why not Have the mental capacity to Let them both go free!)
Mat 27:19 When he was set down on the judgment seat, his wife sent unto him, saying, Have thou nothing to do with that just man: for I have suffered many things this day in a dream because of him.
Mat 27:20 But the chief priests and elders persuaded the multitude that they should ask Barabbas, and destroy Jesus.
Have Nothing to do with the just Man.( why not Have the mental capacity to Let them both go free!)
Mat 27:19 When he was set down on the judgment seat, his wife sent unto him, saying, Have thou nothing to do with that just man: for I have suffered many things this day in a dream because of him.
Mat 27:20 But the chief priests and elders persuaded the multitude that they should ask Barabbas, and destroy Jesus.
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John 15:12-14 (KJV)
naatmi
New member
God has an obligation to uphold the law for the good of the public, the whole universe. It is not just a personal thing. A ruler can personally forgive someone but still have an obligation to punish them as an example to society. Forgiveness (personal) and pardon (legal) are two different things. God is "ready to forgive" the Bible says. But a judge can't simply forgive criminals, rapists, murderers, thieves, etc. A judge has to uphold the law or there would be lawlessness in society. The atonement serves the purpose of upholding the law publicly so that God can pardon people. The atonement is public justice substituted for the retributive justice of the law. It fulfills the same purpose in the case of those who repent. But it does not take away the need to punish the impenitent. It does not allow God to grant total immunity to potential criminals. Forgiveness and immunity are different. One is good and one is bad. One is beneficial and praiseworthy, the other is harmful and dishonorable.
naatmi
New member
Not literally. It depends on what you mean by the metaphor. I can think of more than one way to agree with it and more than one way to disagree with it.
naatmi
New member
An atonement that justifies pardon is loving and wise. An atonement that grants immunity is either unloving, unwise, or both.
elected4ever
New member
I am glad you asked. God said that Adam had to die if he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Death means separation. So when Adam ate of the fruit he became separated. Separated from what you might ask? From God, of course because Adam remained on earth for another 900 years before he died physically.
A man's spirit is the life within a man so when the spirit leaves the body then physical death occurs.
When a man is separated from God then that person has died or become separated from God.
Jesus did not die to prevent physical death. I personally believe that man has an appointment with physical death. Even if Adam had not ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil he was still subject to physical death as was all of physical creation because of physical creation's transient nature.
Man is different than the rest of the life on earth because the life that man received was eternal life. The life of all other living things is temporary in nature because God's life was not breathed into them. When a man dies, or woman for that matter, there life or spirit lives for eternity. That is the way man was created in the image of God and in His likeness.
God does have form and that form is like the form of God in appearance but not in substance. Man is a created being and God is an eternal being. While man existed before the fall he was held guiltless for all that he did. Man's assignment and realm of authority was to have dominion over the earth and God delighted in man and all that he did and approved of his actions.
There came a time when God told man not to eat of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil but man chose to defy God and to do as he was instructed not to do. Man became an opposer of God. Instead of destroying man, God choose to separate man from Himself.
Sin is the opposition to God. Adam committed an act that was in opposition to God and in so doing caused his on death. In so doing all his offspring were born into a world in opposition to God. Man's dominion was not taken from him so man used the world as man saw fit and not as God has designed it. So the world lies in opposition to God or in sin. Even those things we call good oppose the will of God because they are the will of man and not the will of God. That state of opposition and all choices and acts of man are called sin. Only those acts that are done in obedience to God are not sin.
In order for man to be separated from sin he must first be come obedient to God. The normal state of man is opposition to God. God has in times past had witnesses to himself that he has chosen and they have born witness to God. Man choose to ignore those witnesses but no man has ever been completely obedient and has shown his human nature just as it is today.
It is not within the power of man to redeem himself. Over the centuries mankind has sought a path back to God and so the birth of religion. Christianity is no different. There are many who call themselves Christian but the faith they practice deny the very God that they purport to serve. That is why one cannot look at a particular sect and say this is a Christian and this one is not. The life of Christ is in the individual and not a particular group or denomination. God knows who His children are and who is not.
All who clame to be sinners ether do not know who they are as a result of there faith or are not chrildren of God. The chrildren of God do not sin. Why, because the seed of the Father (God) remains in them and they cannot sin just as Jesus the Christ was born of God and not of man and could not sin. If Jesus could have sinned according to your faith then two things are true to you even if you wont admit it. First, Jesus was not born of God and second you are subject to the law of God.
We as men die physically because we were created mortal not because we a sinners. Man is already dead spiritually unless he is born again and if he is born again he is as Christ is in this world. So I ask, Who is Christ to you?
Krsto
Well-known member
Let me rephrase my question - Where do you get the idea that someone else has to be punished for one's sin even when that person is forgiven? Why do you think God can't pardon unless someone is punished?
naatmi
New member
True. Adam needed the tree of life to live forever.
And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. (John 5:37)
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: (Phil 2:6)
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. (Col 2:9)
EDIT: haha, I'm so used to hearing people say nonsense that I wrongly thought you said our God has no form. Sorry
No one is born opposed to God if that is what you mean.
Common, maybe universal, but not normal.
Sins(plural) can be forgiven. Sin(singular) cannot be forgiven-it must be judged. A forgiven thief, liar, murderer, adulterer, "luster,".....................................is still a thief, liar, murderer, adulterer, "luster"..............................................
The Holy Bible Ro. 8:3
"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin(singular-my note), condemned sin(singular-my note) in the flesh:"
The Holy Bible Ro. 8:3
"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin(singular-my note), condemned sin(singular-my note) in the flesh:"
naatmi
New member
There is s difference between being sacrificed and being punished. Punishment is when the transgressor is afflicted to uphold the law by the letter. An atoning sacrifice is when someone else (not the transgressor) is afflicted (not punished) to uphold the underlying purpose or spirit of the law, bypassing the letter.
An innocent person can't be punished because they are not the transgressor. The penalty of the law is the affliction of the transgressor. The penalty of the law was not executed upon Jesus because Jesus was not a transgressor. Jesus' affliction is a substitute for the execution of the penalty upon transgressors. He was not punished. He was sacrificed to uphold the spirit of the law.