toldailytopic: Why did Jesus need to die?

[steko]

The only reason he "needed" to die was because that is the way God determined that we (by faith) would receive the gift of eternal life. God could have saved us any way he wanted. He was not restricted to doing it the way he did it. That's just how he chose to do it. That's the ONLY reason Jesus "had to die."

I find it hard to imagine that if GOD could have come up with another way, that He would have allowed His Son to die the awful death of the cross.
I've seen you say this before and it always strikes me as demeaning to Christ's perfect work on the cross. When I see this, I actually have a sickening feeling come over me.

The plan of man's redemption was designed before the world was.
How could a perfect GOD put forth less than a perfect plan as is 'the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world'?

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

1. God exists. (Gen. 1:1)
2. God is infinite. (Psalm 90:2, 147:5; Jer. 23:24)
3. God is holy. (Isaiah 6:3; Rev. 4:8)
4. God is righteous. (Neh. 9:32-33; 1 Thess. 1:6)
5. Therefore, God is infinitely holy and just.

6. Furthermore, God speaks out of the character of what He is. (Matt. 12:34)

7. God spoke the Law. (Ex. 20:1-17)

8. Therefore, the Law is in the heart of God and is a reflection of God's character since it is Holy and Good. (Rom. 7:12)

9. Furthermore, to break the Law of God is to offend Him since it is His Law that we break. This sin results in an infinite offense because God is infinite and His wrath against sin is infinite, thus, the payment made by the reprobate must be unending.

10. Furthermore, it is also right that God punish the Law breaker. To not punish the Law breaker (sinner) is to allow an offense against His holiness to be ignored. (Amos 2:4; Rom. 4:15; Ex. 23:7; Ex. 34:7; Ps. 5:4-6; Rom. 2:5-6)

11. God says that the person who sins must die (be punished). The wages of sin is death. (Eze. 18:4; Rom. 6:23)

12. The sinner needs to escape the righteous judgment of God or he will face damnation. (Rom. 1:18; Matt. 25:46)

13. But, no sinner can undo an infinite offense since to please God and make things right, he must obey the Law, which is the standard of God's righteous character. (Gal. 2:16, 2:21)

14. But the sinner cannot fulfill the law because he is sinful (in the flesh). (Rom. 8:3)

15. Since the sinner cannot fulfill the law and satisfy God, it follows that only God can do this.

16. Jesus is God in flesh. (John 1:1, 1:14; Col. 2:9)

18. The substitute could not be an animal. (Heb. 10:4)

19. Neither could an angel be the substitute, for the substitute must take upon himself human nature. (Heb. 2:14)

20. No sinner could atone for his fellow sinners. (Psa. 49:7–8).

21. It was only God Himself who could be the exact, perfect and proper substitute to atone for the sins of His people, and completely satisfy the vindication of His justice and righteousness, and thus render man acceptable in His sight.

22. Jesus was also a man under the Law. (1 Tim. 2:5; Gal. 4:5-6)

23. Since then the children share in flesh and blood, Jesus, Himself, likewise partook of the same, that through death he might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil.

24. Therefore, he had to be made like his brethren in all things, that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. (Heb. 2:14–17)

25. Jesus Christ alone could be the fitting or proper high priest. (Heb. 7:26)

26. The sinlessness of the substitute is necessary. (2 Cor. 5:21)

27. Therefore, Jesus became sin for us and bore our sins unto death in His body on the cross, which revealed the specific penalty required for sin, thus fulfilling the Law. (2 Cor. 5:21; 1 Peter 2:24; Rom. 3:24–26; Rom. 8:3-4)

28. The gift is valued according to the altar on which it is presented. Christ offered Himself through the eternal Spirit (Heb. 9:14), that is to say, He offered His human nature on the altar of His divine nature. His divine nature being eternal, His offering possesses an eternal quality. Hence, although Christ did not sacrifice Himself eternally, He nevertheless offered an eternal sacrifice to satisfy divine justice.

29. Therefore, salvation is by grace through faith since it was not by our keeping the Law, but by Jesus, God in flesh, who fulfilled the Law and died in our place. (Eph. 2:8-9; Gal. 3:13; Eph. 5:2)

30. Finally, it follows from the above that a person must believe and claim Christ’s atoning sacrifice as their own in order to be declared righteous before God. Such a true believer will be known from their works.

AMR

 

[Nick M]

Nice post, AMR.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

The only reason he "needed" to die was because that is the way God determined that we (by faith) would receive the gift of eternal life. God could have saved us any way he wanted. He was not restricted to doing it the way he did it. That's just how he chose to do it. That's the ONLY reason Jesus "had to die."

I doubt that to be true.

My information is that God is bound to his own righteousness.

If there was another way or a better way, then God would have done it that way.

To others-

The REASON why Jesus had to die was that it is the only way possible for man (any man) to come before God face to face in His presence eternally and all who desire the same must also die and be raised from the dead or changed.

When God sent His son, His son was already a full grown man of this creation 30 years of age, not some mystical second person of a trinity who left Heaven to become a man.

All others of mankind may have forgiveness of sin and eternal life because a Man is in Heaven dispensing these things to all who obey Him for the Father has placed everything of the creation under His hand. (and He was not there previously to His ascension)

Heb 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

LA.

 

[john w]

Know this: sins(plural) can be forgiven. But sin(singular) cannot be-it must be judged.

The wages of sin(singular) is death. Not negotiable.


The number one attribute of God in the Bible( contrary to what this Christ-rejecting world thinks) is not His love(even though God is love), but His Holiness, also expressed as righteousness and justice. That this Holiness is foundational to God's character is a "running theme" throughout the Bible-perhaps Psalms 97:2 summarizes this theme:

"Clouds and darkness are round about him: righteousness and judgment are the habitation of his throne"

God's righteousness loves and demands perfect "goodness", and His justice hates sin and demands its full punishment(propitiation=satisfaction).

Bad news for sinful man-The prospects of man meeting a just and Holy God are not pleasant-David echoes this fear/dread when he says:

" And enter not into judgment with thy servant: for in thy sight shall no man living be justified." The HB Ps 143:2


God's Holiness means He is unapproachable by sinful man. Now I understand the meaning of Exodus 3:5:

"And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground."

=do not come near me=keep away=no trespassing=keep your distance=God's Holiness separates Him from the sinner(spiritual death is thus separation from God). This thought is also expressed in Ex. 19:9-12, 20-21=the presence of God in His Holiness was not an invitation to approach, but a warning to stay away!("whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death"-sound familiar?-"thou shalt surely die." (Gen 2:17)

Good News-The Lord Jesus Christ as our substitute("died for our sins" 1 Cor 15:3 and others) satisfying God's justice.


"All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all." Is. 53:6

Notice "all" is the first and last word of this verse. Spiritual application=The verse begins by stating the universal condition of sinfulness, and ends by stating the universal provision of the Lord Jesus Christ's substitutionary death.

Also notice per Ep. 2:8,9 that the basis/grounds for salvation is grace, not love. God's love will not save anyone! God cannot "love anyone into heaven"-His justice demands that he "do something" about the sin issue-and that he did by sending His Son to die in my/your place. Love is the motivation, not the basis! And that is why all this "my God is a God of love and would never send anyone to hell" is misguided-"My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge"(Hosea 4:6).

 

[Lighthouse]

So you don't have to.

That was the first thing that popped into my head as I read the question.

For many reasons, but one is often overlooked.

He left heaven and took on flesh and blood, after the likeness of Adam. To get back to where he came, heaven, he had to shed his blood. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

:think:

Good point.

Also Poly's answer is a more fleshed out version of ghost's; I like it.

 

[Charity]

The TheologyOnline.com TOPIC OF THE DAY for October 21st, 2011 07:56 AM

toldailytopic: Why did Jesus need to die?

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Smile
Comfirmed Hit at alpha 2 _ confirm Target waiting to Netrilize

Jesus didn't have to be mocked by priests (gods lips on earth) beaten by Roman Gauards; an tortured to death on behalf of the Jews.

so we may go to Heaven? why dont we all just stay in hell, we can clean it up, an keep Jesus alive to preach!

Killed. an lied about...All because he spock out against Moses Sacrifice Laws, tipped Tables up in Moses mosque; insaulting Moses causes quite a chemical reation, just as what happens here on TOL, when information may suggest your whole being an purpose is about to explode on the next hit if you dont save your self.

charity

 

[eameece]

There is no way anyone can "die for our sins." Dying doesn't take away anyone's sin. That was just a leftover myth from the age of animal and human sacrifice, practiced by primitive cultures, including what Abraham was asked to do 2000 years before. It is a myth created by Christians, based on these ancient practices, which I don't believe Jesus said a word about. He said that if you believe in him, meaning that you believed in what he could do, and in what he said, then you would know that you don't die, but there are many mansions that await you, and that death can be overcome. "Were it not so, I would have told you," he said.

 

[Krsto]

For many reasons, but one is often overlooked.

He left heaven and took on flesh and blood, after the likeness of Adam. To get back to where he came, heaven, he had to shed his blood. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

Uh, what? The solution to flesh and blood not being able to inherit the kingdom is to change it into something else, per 1 Cor. 15:44 - it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

If Jesus had to shed his blood to get back to where he came then we would have to shed our blood to get there too.

And we wonder why people like Silent Hunter say things like, ". . . and you guys wonder why we don't believe in your religious nonsense ."

And so it goes.

 

[Krsto]

God has always required a sacrifice for sin.

Only because he determined from the beginning that he would send Jesus to die for us. He could have determined our salvation through any number of ways.

He simply cannot just wink at sin as if it never happened. Just as a good parent shouldn't wink at it when his children sin.

If you mean forgiveness without consequences then good parents do all the time and so can God. I couldn't find the scripture but I think in Proverbs it says something like, "It's the glory of a king to forgive a matter."

But we sin against a good and righteous God who knows no sin and can have no fellowship with it.

In what sense can God have no fellowship with sin? He does have fellowship with sinners, even those not "washed by the blood." What does him "not having fellowship with sin" have to do with the underlying question of the OP?

And so a perfect sacrifice/punishment, without blemish must be had in order to suffice in His eyes and cover our sins as if they never happened before he can have the relationship with man that He's always desired.

Not "must be had" but was had because that was the method God chose for our salvation. He had alternatives.

Although we should be the ones taking the punishment for what we've done,

We do. It's called death. The wages of sin is death. What other "punishment" did you have in mind? And why would you have that in mind?

it would be of no avail because it had to be a sacrifice without spot or blemish. Not just any sacrifice would do. It couldn't be done by just any person due to "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."

If God had wanted us to be saved by the sacrifice of a sinful man or some other method entirely he could have. Remember, the "method" of our salvation is faith. The what that we have faith in is not constrained to the death of a sinless man.

So God willingly said He would live as the man, Jesus to live out a perfect life so that a perfect punishment/sacrifice would be made for all when He died in our place and willingly received the punishment that was due to us.

Again, what punishment did he receive on our behalf? Crucifixion? Physical death? Spiritual death? What, exactly? Had he not received it then what would we have gotten? Eternal suffering? But he didn't receive eternal suffering, he received torture. Is that what he saved us from receiving?

This is getting wierd.

 

[Paulos]

toldailytopic: Why did Jesus need to die?

"It pleased the Father that in [Christ] all the fullness should dwell, and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross. And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight...having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it." -- Colossians 1:19-22; 2:13-15

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

If Jesus had to shed his blood to get back to where he came then we would have to shed our blood to get there too.

He didn't have the option to simply have his body "changed", due to the other reasons listed in this thread for his death. My point was only one of those reasons he had to die.



Philippians 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.


If I am blessed enough to be alive when he comes, I will go up, but I will not have a body with blood. The life of the flesh is in the blood. The life of the flesh of a spiritual body is in the Spirit.

 

[Nick M]

If Jesus had to shed his blood to get back to where he came then we would have to shed our blood to get there too.

Correct. We will be resurected. We being those in the Body of Christ, and those of Israel (the whole house) that endured to the end.

 

[PureX]

I don't believe Jesus NEEDED to die any more than we NEEDED to kill him. We did it because we are fools, and he forgave us in spite of ourselves.

 

[Damian]

"To the ego sin means death, and so atonement is achieved through murder. Salvation is looked upon as a way by which the Son of God was killed instead of you." - A Course in Miracles

* Selah *

 

[naatmi]

In other words...Jesus had to die so that God could save those who acted better than other people.

I didn't mean to insult you by suggesting that you have repented. I was only saying, apart from the atonement, God's obligation to punish you would not go away even if you repented.

People who stop sinning----good people. People who don't stop sinning ---bad people.

duh

 

[ghost]

I don't believe Jesus NEEDED to die any more than we NEEDED to kill him. We did it because we are fools, and he forgave us in spite of ourselves.

“Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. 18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.” John 10:17-18

 

[David Crowder]

Hebrews 9:11-28

Christ is the replacement for the lesser sacrifices from the law. Now that we have Christ, his one death can take away the sin of the world.

 

[MrDeets]

Hebrews 9:11-28

Christ is the replacement for the lesser sacrifices from the law. Now that we have Christ, his one death has taken away the sin of the world.

Fixed. You're welcome. :e4e:

 

[naatmi]

Fixed. You're welcome. :e4e:

There's still sin in the world.