toldailytopic: Why are there so many Christian denominations? And is that necessarily

Krsto

Well-known member
And as I read the pastoral letters, and things Paul wrote in other books, I can very easily see that the Apostles intended it to be much like it is today. The growth of the Church today has necessitated some changes that weren't there in their times, to be sure. But I'd wager from an administrative scale they wouldn't argue.

They taught liturgically, they had elders, teachers, bishops, managers, etc...

They had authoritative structure. They influenced doing works after you were saved. They blah blah blah. All of which is straight out of scripture, and congruent with RCC, and consistent historically.

Well sure if you are going to have uniformity of doctrine and the church is going to spread beyond where it had by the end of Paul's ministry then it only stands to reason a heirarchical system would be needed, much as you couldn't run the US Armed Forces without the White House, Pentegon, base commanders, etc., but the first premise is not a given.

The thing about apostles, elders, teachers, administrators, etc., is that they were not offices or positions in the church, but gift-based minstries that could expect submission only to the degree that they proved themselves as humble servant/ministers that laid down their lives for the sheep and love them like a real father in the faith, not just someone that was ordained by someone else. Even at that, they could not expect submission to the point where the people jetison their own convictions about what they believed was right in the sight of God as they listened to the traditions passed on from the apostles and from the Holy Spirit which was given to all Christians for the sake of spiritual discernment.
 

Universalist

New member
There is no other way to have freedom in Christ except through all the different denominations.

Anything else would take us back to the early days when man was not allowed to worship God according to the dictates of his own conscience.

Even with the different denominations, there are still people who believe they are doing God a favor by trying to tell everyone else 'still' how to worship and even more so be found 'acceptable' to God.

Control and Fear------
 

Universalist

New member
I was thinking about something.

I was thinking about before Christ, during his lifetime on earth, and after his death and resurrection.

I was thinking about how things never changed even while he was alive.

He never came to set up churches, but to explain and show us what truly mattered. It had nothing to do with creating hierarchy systems in, but to show us God was within us--The Kingdom--We were the temples of God--The Holy Spirit.

Somehow after his death we still just did not get it and many still don't.

Why did Jesus never talk about creating buildings--monuments for God, etc-where we would go and worship? It is clear when he told the Samaritan woman that a day would come when men would no longer look for a place to go to worship God--but would know he was a SPIRIT--and could be worshiped anywhere. I believe Jesus wanted to get our focus off of the man-made laws and traditions that were keeping us from seeing the real point of our lives...--to LOVE.

It has never been about building a place for God--We are the temples of God.

I don't believe Paul ever intended to set up churches as we know them today, but the 'assembling together' we were not to forsake was really something that a true believer could not forsake anyway. You desire fellowship in the name of the Lord with brothers and sisters, but there is no command to become some member of an organized religious institution.

Yet, at the same time, there is no sin in it either. This is where Liberty in Christ comes in, and a part of the true meaning of "Liberty" in Christ.

I believe God uses all of these separations (DENOMINATIONS)to accomplish his will and purpose in each of our lives.

He continues to show us he just is not inside this 'one' box we keep trying to put him in.

Since man always wants to be lead by 'man, God allows it, and this is where a lot of the structure of religion comes in, but it is not necessary. It may be necessary in the Natural world, but not in the Spiritual world. Still, God allows it and uses it.

A lot of Paul teachings are taken too far and out of context, just to the extreme--but God allows it and uses it to still accomplish the separations that are needed anyway to give us the ability to be FREE in Christ and lead by the Holy Spirit as our own conscience dictates.

Anything else is Spiritual Slavery, Spiritual Control, Spiritual Manipulation...all the time thinking they are doing God a favor as if God needed any to deal with his own creation.

I can't wait until the day when people finally realize ( as we are ) that denominations and sects are not to be Idolized--and allow God to push them on into a deeper place and understanding beyond a lot of doctrines and beliefs that keep us held hostage and in bondage without knowing it.

When people can see that God uses these things to teach us to a certain extent (Denominations, etc), but that the true place he wants to take us is outside the box ( the four walls) and thinking God is concerned about what church you go to, what you wear to church, all the external things we have labeled "God" that a lot of times keep us in FEAR, HATE, PRIDE against others. If your denomination or belief system causes you to discriminate, hate, and walk in PRIDE--you need to check yourself and see if you are in the faith.

All of centuries of brainwashing and middle-men have disrupted the simple message of the Gospel-LOVE, Mercy, Forgiveness, Grace.

The Kingdom (GOD) is within you.

Wake Up People!

Love Conquers ALL!

How can you truly love when we constantly worried about the wrong things?
 

IXOYE

New member
I was thinking about something.

I was thinking about before Christ, during his lifetime on earth, and after his death and resurrection.

Before he was the Christ named Jesus from Mary's womb, He was on earth, as the Angel of the Lord, the WORD, etc... As such he was very active in the developing hiearchies in the CHURCH, consider the OT is a shadow of what the NEW should be like. Why did the priesthoods in the OLD have a hiearchy? :O

I was thinking about how things never changed even while he was alive.

He never came to set up churches, but to explain and show us what truly mattered. It had nothing to do with creating hierarchy systems in, but to show us God was within us--The Kingdom--We were the temples of God--The Holy Spirit.

He called PAUL on the road to damascus to come and help establish His church. He taught the apostles, the apostles took His teaching and trained others, they were Priests, of the Church in the order of Melchizedek. They taught both written and orally things that should occur. Paul wrote very specifically notes to timothy on how the Church should be ran.

I guess you could argue, Christ made a mistake and the Apostles screwed it up though...


Somehow after his death we still just did not get it and many still don't.

The last apostle lived during the time Clement was bishop of Rome. Go read 1 clement, not as canon but as History. He worked with Paul, Peter, Barnabus, had Paul's approval, and graduated to a high position in the Church. He was competent.

Read how he described the Church, chapters ummm around 44ish about ten chapters. It is exactly the opposite of what you teach here. Don't you think if he ws teaching HERESY, John would have addressed it with a letter? Nothing insinuates that occured. PLUS every claim Clement makes for the Church, a protestant will disagree with, but EVERY LINE IS STRAIGHT OUT OF THE BIBLE! What does that tell you?


Why did Jesus never talk about creating buildings--monuments for God, etc-where we would go and worship?

Why did he never say not to? Why did the OT present a likeness of God for people to look at? :)


It is clear when he told the Samaritan woman that a day would come when men would no longer look for a place to go to worship God--but would know he was a SPIRIT--and could be worshiped anywhere. I believe Jesus wanted to get our focus off of the man-made laws and traditions that were keeping us from seeing the real point of our lives...--to LOVE.

The love part is dead to rights on target, btw.


It has never been about building a place for God--We are the temples of God.

I don't believe Paul ever intended to set up churches as we know them today, but the 'assembling together' we were not to forsake was really something that a true believer could not forsake anyway. You desire fellowship in the name of the Lord with brothers and sisters, but there is no command to become some member of an organized religious institution.

Yet, at the same time, there is no sin in it either. This is where Liberty in Christ comes in, and a part of the true meaning of "Liberty" in Christ.

I believe God uses all of these separations (DENOMINATIONS)to accomplish his will and purpose in each of our lives.

He continues to show us he just is not inside this 'one' box we keep trying to put him in.

Since man always wants to be lead by 'man, God allows it, and this is where a lot of the structure of religion comes in, but it is not necessary. It may be necessary in the Natural world, but not in the Spiritual world. Still, God allows it and uses it.

A lot of Paul teachings are taken too far and out of context, just to the extreme--but God allows it and uses it to still accomplish the separations that are needed anyway to give us the ability to be FREE in Christ and lead by the Holy Spirit as our own conscience dictates.

Anything else is Spiritual Slavery, Spiritual Control, Spiritual Manipulation...all the time thinking they are doing God a favor as if God needed any to deal with his own creation.

I can't wait until the day when people finally realize ( as we are ) that denominations and sects are not to be Idolized--and allow God to push them on into a deeper place and understanding beyond a lot of doctrines and beliefs that keep us held hostage and in bondage without knowing it.

When people can see that God uses these things to teach us to a certain extent (Denominations, etc), but that the true place he wants to take us is outside the box ( the four walls) and thinking God is concerned about what church you go to, what you wear to church, all the external things we have labeled "God" that a lot of times keep us in FEAR, HATE, PRIDE against others. If your denomination or belief system causes you to discriminate, hate, and walk in PRIDE--you need to check yourself and see if you are in the faith.

All of centuries of brainwashing and middle-men have disrupted the simple message of the Gospel-LOVE, Mercy, Forgiveness, Grace.

The Kingdom (GOD) is within you.

Wake Up People!

Love Conquers ALL!

How can you truly love when we constantly worried about the wrong things?

I only addressed a litttle. food for thought. Like my spelling. :|
 

Universalist

New member
I only addressed a litttle. food for thought. Like my spelling. :|

Hopefully one day Christianity will no longer be seen as trying to find ways to be approved by God and build buildings for God ( as if God needed a dwelling place other than our bodies which are the 'temples' of God) and realize how much less honestly God could care about hierarchy and ALL about how you love God and treat your brother.

I am not going to go into much more on the topic or even your responses, I explained my views on church, etc already.

In the end what is truly important to God has nothing to do with the organization of religion, and I will leave it at that.
 

IXOYE

New member
Hopefully one day Christianity will no longer be seen as trying to find ways to be approved by God and build buildings for God ( as if God needed a dwelling place other than our bodies which are the 'temples' of God) and realize how much less honestly God could care about hierarchy and ALL about how you love God and treat your brother.

I am not going to go into much more on the topic or even your responses, I explained my views on church, etc already.

In the end what is truly important to God has nothing to do with the organization of religion, and I will leave it at that.

Ya know, I bumped heads with... mind blank, writes books on the bome church not organized church, Frank...? Crud, not near my books... anyway, it was his name and may or may not have been him, txt has No verification. Anyway, the early church, The Way, still used church buildings, synogogues. And the goal of Peter, was to have a trained person and educated peoples over the group, and they made sure of the teaching and directed the people in their lives. We know these things.

I imagine everyone will agree with the church building part, some take ot way past the Bible and into a chaotic, leaders are "evil"(hyperbole) mode.
 

Universalist

New member
Ya know, I bumped heads with... mind blank, writes books on the bome church not organized church, Frank...? Crud, not near my books... anyway, it was his name and may or may not have been him, txt has No verification. Anyway, the early church, The Way, still used church buildings, synogogues. And the goal of Peter, was to have a trained person and educated peoples over the group, and they made sure of the teaching and directed the people in their lives. We know these things.

I imagine everyone will agree with the church building part, some take ot way past the Bible and into a chaotic, leaders are "evil"(hyperbole) mode.

I never said 'leaders' or 'church' is evil, I explained what I meant in my earlier post a few days ago. What is the problem when these things are so organized that it becomes about the organization of the organization, power, and control and the message and purpose is totally lost in all of the 'Power tripping' these things can cause. The message sometimes is not even understood with all of the layers of everything else (but God)we have covered the message with.

The message of Jesus is not even understood because of this in many circles. Everything is about "Us vs Them"---sigh!

It is funny how Christ came and had nothing to do with organizing Christianity and to show us the keys to life were Spiritual principles, simple ones by the way that 'Religion' has totally complicated.

Paul came along and started organizing Christianity ( with good intents ) to teach and instruct. The problem is that what we have today is nothing like I believe the early church had..(Before Rome's hijacking of it)..It is focused on who is in control, who can't do this or that, a lot of flesh for the most part. Christ came to bring us Liberty in the Holy Spirit.

Liberty in Christ is a threat to Religion---This is what the early Christians had and died for--This is where I know God wants to get us back to--The early days before all of the adding, corruption, and taking away of the message of the Good News---and to get back to truly the heart of God and the reason Christ came to earth.
 

IXOYE

New member
I never said 'leaders' or 'church' is evil, I explained what I meant in my earlier post a few days ago. What is the problem when these things are so organized that it becomes about the organization of the organization, power, and control and the message and purpose is totally lost in all of the 'Power tripping' these things can cause. The message sometimes is not even understood with all of the layers of everything else (but God)we have covered the message with.

The message of Jesus is not even understood because of this in many circles. Everything is about "Us vs Them"---sigh!

It is funny how Christ came and had nothing to do with organizing Christianity and to show us the keys to life were Spiritual principles, simple ones by the way that 'Religion' has totally complicated.

@@@@@umm is that a position you really want to claim? Who taught the apostles? who established the church?... the same people that lived and talked with Him daily. If you wish to promote it didn't get established the way christ wanted it to be done at the onset, implies either, christ is not the head, or is incapable..@@@@

Paul came along and started organizing Christianity ( with good intents ) to teach and instruct.
@@@@
Go read acts, paul, barabus, and Peter had to answer to the leader of the Church at Jerusalem regarding the gentiles. Seems there was early organization and leadership afterall.@@@@

The problem is that what we have today is nothing like I believe the early church had..(Before Rome's hijacking of it)..

@@@@if you read the first letter of Clement for its History, and check his comments against the.Canon you will find the RCC is much more Biblical, and historically correct than the protestants are.@@@@

It is focused on who is in control, who can't do this or that, a lot of flesh for the most part. Christ came to bring us Liberty in the Holy Spirit.

@@@@the verse doesn't say blanket liberty, bit says where the liberty is from. Err what yij are liberized from.@@@@

Liberty in Christ is a threat to Religion---This is what the early Christians had and died for--This is where I know God wants to get us back to--The early days before all of the adding, corruption,

@@@@study the early days, it was organized from the Way, with lileaders, trained by the apostles and instructed to protecting both written and verbal teachings of them. History will really refine your understanding.

and taking away of the message of the Good News---and to get back to truly the heart of God and the reason Christ came to earth.

Seriously start with 1 Clement, and check his description against the Canon.
 

unknown

New member
John 17:21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.
"that they all may be" means they are not. It's a process......
There is one truth, not many.
agreed
Claiming that the doctrinal differences are a good thing is modern nonsense.
doctrinal differences are not nonsense, they are needed to reveal that one truth you were talking about.
 

IXOYE

New member
"that they all may be" means they are not. It's a process.......

that they may all be is a reference to the CHURCH just a half sentence before, and the members of in what you quote. The process is prayed for by JESUS to be accomplished. Not be a continual process.

doctrinal differences are not nonsense, they are needed to reveal that one truth you were talking about.

Paul writes on this in eph 4, where he shows they are brought to the point, through works, LED BY THE CHURCH, to unity and knowledge of Christ, until they are as perfect as Jesus Christ Himself was. (assuming you know what the word "perfect " in Greek meant.
It's expected of them to attain, NOT, strive eternally for. IN THIS LIFE not after. if you want more scriptures I can bury you in them, but I thought these were the best to start with.

I guesss you could add the John 17 vs fragment, me in you and them in me, and put it with 1 john 3:6 and weep. It's certainly going to change your perspective on things. In fact it will make you mad and you'll accuse me of things.
 

Krsto

Well-known member
that they may all be is a reference to the CHURCH just a half sentence before, and the members of in what you quote. The process is prayed for by JESUS to be accomplished. Not be a continual process.



Paul writes on this in eph 4, where he shows they are brought to the point, through works, LED BY THE CHURCH, to unity and knowledge of Christ, until they are as perfect as Jesus Christ Himself was. (assuming you know what the word "perfect " in Greek meant.
It's expected of them to attain, NOT, strive eternally for. IN THIS LIFE not after. if you want more scriptures I can bury you in them, but I thought these were the best to start with.

I guesss you could add the John 17 vs fragment, me in you and them in me, and put it with 1 john 3:6 and weep. It's certainly going to change your perspective on things. In fact it will make you mad and you'll accuse me of things.

You sure do make a lot of assumptions . . . and then state them as fact. :nono:
 

unknown

New member
that they may all be is a reference to the CHURCH just a half sentence before, and the members of in what you quote. The process is prayed for by JESUS to be accomplished. Not be a continual process.



Paul writes on this in eph 4, where he shows they are brought to the point, through works, LED BY THE CHURCH, to unity and knowledge of Christ, until they are as perfect as Jesus Christ Himself was. (assuming you know what the word "perfect " in Greek meant.
It's expected of them to attain, NOT, strive eternally for. IN THIS LIFE not after. if you want more scriptures I can bury you in them, but I thought these were the best to start with.

I guesss you could add the John 17 vs fragment, me in you and them in me, and put it with 1 john 3:6 and weep. It's certainly going to change your perspective on things. In fact it will make you mad and you'll accuse me of things.
ok

edit:
related to the topic, wasn't Paul the first one to start his own denomination?
 
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Ophansandalphon

New member
Why not ask "Why so many religions?"

Why not ask "Why so many religions?"

WHAT IF #1.

What if the Bible was written exactly the way that God wanted it to be, even if it seems to contradict itself? Allow me to slam two Bible verses together and let’s see what comes out of it.
John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
I John 4:7
Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
Christianity has interpreted John 14:6 to mean that EVERYONE must accept Jesus, by name, as their savior, however, I John 4:7 tells us that “every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.” Either Jesus is mistaken when he claims to be the only way to the Father, or our worldly understanding of what is being discussed here is seriously flawed.
Jesus IS the Christ, but what exactly does that mean?
The Christ energy IS the energy of God’s Love, and so Jesus is the living embodiment of God’s Love on Earth. People saying “Jesus loves you” is almost misleading, for it implies that he could choose not to, which is impossible for him. AS THE EMBODIMENT OF GOD’S LOVE, that is his operating system, his perspective, his logic, and his reasoning, which removes all trace of the darker emotions that we’re plagued with because they don’t even cross his mind. Jesus doesn’t just ignore a hateful or prejudicial thought, he doesn’t have them!
So how can these two verses be true from God’s perspective?
Here’s my spiritual math. Jesus says that he is the ONLY way to God and I John tells me that ALL WHO LOVE “knoweth God,” thus Jesus and Love must be synonymous terms and interchangeable!
Looking at a loving Muslim, Buddhist or Hindu, John 14 seems to tell me that he will never know God, however, I John tells me that because he loves, he already knows God.
If Jesus IS Love then he exists at the core of ALL life-affirming religions, and so when he tells us that we should not judge others –
Luke 6:37
Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
- it is because we don’t yet possess the understanding to see things as God sees them, and so we are mislead by our own reasoning when we judge and condemn others.
Here’s some more spiritual math, if the above hypothesis is true, then God has found a way to offer spiritual salvation to the entire world, no matter the place, time or economic condition, through the act of Love, INSTEAD of condemning 2/3rds of the world to hell for not specifically being Christian. That is a soul-expanding thought, however it would also suggest that Christians who accept Jesus only into their minds and not into their hearts aren’t actually saved!?
All Christians assume that they’ve got everything figured out and that they’re all going to Heaven. You know what they say about assuming, don’t you?
My final hypothesis is that God is perfect, the Bible is exactly the way He wants it, and the only weak link in the chain is our own inability to read it completely from His perspective, as opposed to our own worldly perspective.
Jesus IS Love and Love is the answer to ALL of life’s challenges.

If you enjoyed this hypothetical, I have a million more that I could share, if you like. If you are offended, then that was certainly NOT my intention and I apologize. Every person has a right to a personal relationship with the divine, and I’m just trying to share mine.
God bless.
 

IXOYE

New member
You sure do make a lot of assumptions . . . and then state them as fact. :nono:


I sure do hear you make a bunch of slanderous accusations with no substnance to back them up. :hammer:

I can back my reasoning up, and would be glad to. You attack character without touching the arguments, just make empty assertions.

My way, at least, is honest.

Yours is malicious and manipulative.
 
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