toldailytopic: Which requires the greater faith, atheism or theism?

[PureX]

Oh ... so wavering and being non-commital about the truth is the way to go?

Or perhaps we could just be honest about ourselves, our limitations, and our beliefs.

 

[Ktoyou]

There are believers who embrace, and believers who fear; those who embrace will love God, those who fear, will turn to hatred.

Few are actually not believers; they live out their lives with empty hearts, eventually, they feel it would be better that they were never born, as it is written.

 

[rexlunae]

I think you've nailed it here. Not that there isn't a matching stridency from some atheists as well, so that it all ends up an endless loop with both militant parties using the same methods to generate heat instead of light.

I can't really deny that. I wish it weren't so.

The sad part is that those Christians who engage in that kind of destructive witness are betraying more than just an idea or a viewpoint, but the God in whose Name they do these things.

It certainly doesn't tempt me to come around to their point of view. Maybe it works sometimes, but it's hard for me to imagine.

 

[zippy2006]

There is something I don't understand about this whole question though. Christianity considers faith to be an inherent good. Read the 23rd Psalm, Luke 17, The Book of Job...there's just a ton of the Bible that praises faith, a lot more than I care to list. So what interest do Christians have in making it seem that atheists have more faith? It seems that either it's a pure troll, seeking to push buttons rather than provoke honest reflection or engage in genuine evangelism, or it is motivated by an attitude toward atheists so invidious that it is willing betray the ideals that it aims to serve out of spite.

I think the phrasing of the OP was poor. That said, add "blind faith" to the title and it works. Orthodox Christianity has always been opposed to fideism. Really it is the same old, "Which is more reasonable, atheism or theism?"

 

[annabenedetti]

It certainly doesn't tempt me to come around to their point of view. Maybe it works sometimes, but it's hard for me to imagine.

I don't imagine it would, and I'm sorry for that... sorry for the lost opportunities here as a result of our imperfect reflection of an infinitely perfect Love.

It's easy to see how faith can seem illogical to a very rational mind, and yet it's possible to get from there to here with grace.

I hope rex, that some day that right conversation will happen here for you.

 

[rexlunae]

I think the phrasing of the OP was poor. That said, add "blind faith" to the title and it works. Orthodox Christianity has always been opposed to fideism.

That's an interesting distinction. I think that it causes some problems for some of the traditional arguments in favor of Christianity or theism in general, as they do have rather large areas of faith that must be fairly blind. Take the Cosmological argument, for example. It implies that God created the Cosmos by some special capability that he has by virtue of his nature, but it does leaves unanswered and fundamentally unanswerable how that might work. To me, that hides most of the relevant question behind a leap of faith which is, if not blind, then at least visually impaired.

At the core, I think all Cosmological arguments for the existence of a God boil down to asking if the Cosmos requires some special bootstrapping process, and answers in the affirmative. It seems to me that once you have crossed the bridge of introducing special rules, you've almost given up the scientific process, because there is basically no way to examine or understand them, and thus you have left yourself with only blind faith.

Obviously, there are more examples to give, but I think in the interests of being brief, I'll leave them off in the hopes that you see what I'm getting at.

 

[rexlunae]

I don't imagine it would, and I'm sorry for that... sorry for the lost opportunities here as a result of our imperfect reflection of an infinitely perfect Love.

In this case, I don't know that there's much of a missed opportunity. I just have to question the motivation behind the approach.

It's easy to see how faith can seem illogical to a very rational mind, and yet it's possible to get from there to here with grace.

Well, I'll have to take your word for it, I suppose. I also know that the reverse transit is possible, and the outcome can be quite satisfying. I suppose it depends a lot on who you are and what appeals to you.

I hope rex, that some day that right conversation will happen here for you.

Well, given the amount of time that I've spent with ministers in the past week, if it were going to happen, I would think it would be now. But I seriously doubt that it will. As much regard as I have for some religious people, these included, I can't get over the fact that I'm quite sure that they're fundamentally wrong. But I do appreciate the thought in the spirit that it was offered.

:e4e:

 

[gcthomas]

There is more evidence in nature that there is a creator who pre-existed the creation and designed it ... than there is that there supports an evolutionary process where things evolved on their own with nothing initiating it.

That's an argument from ignorance for a god of the gaps. "i don't know how it happened so it was god". In these cases it is better to accept you don't know than to be falsely certain of one possible answer.

 

[Ps82]

That's an argument from ignorance for a god of the gaps. "i don't know how it happened so it was god". In these cases it is better to accept you don't know than to be falsely certain of one possible answer.

So, you were really there and know exactly and for sure how it happened?

I think we just disagree... and that's okay. I'm not fretting over what you believe... just joined in this topic to expressing my thoughts and decisions.

 

[Ps82]

Or perhaps we could just be honest about ourselves, our limitations, and our beliefs.

I'm glad to hear that you believe that you might be limited in what you understand about your beliefs.However, I am not unsure about mine.

Due to my personal experiences, which you will probably not accept, I know that God is real, alive, and even knows what is going on in my life. I know that he is willing to have a personal relationship with me.

Over many years (30+) I've had dreams that came true, warnings of impending danger, an open eyed vision, heard my name called audibly, and witnessed that the door to the understanding scripture was opened to me.

I base my faith on this personal relationship with the living God, and because of these super-natural experiences I have been comforted through life in good times and difficult times. Because I know that he is real ... I can have faith that he will and is able to do for me the things he has promised. When my own body and time reminds me that I am on a slippery slope toward death ... I have the hope that following this first physical death is life abundant - full of peace and joy.

 

[PureX]

I'm glad to hear that you believe that you might be limited in what you understand about your beliefs.However, I am not unsure about mine.

Due to my personal experiences, which you will probably not accept, I know that God is real, alive, and even knows what is going on in my life. I know that he is willing to have a personal relationship with me.

Over many years (30+) I've had dreams that came true, warnings of impending danger, an open eyed vision, heard my name called audibly, and witnessed that the door to the understanding scripture was opened to me.

I base my faith on this personal relationship with the living God, and because of these super-natural experiences I have been comforted through life in good times and difficult times. Because I know that he is real ... I can have faith that he will and is able to do for me the things he has promised. When my own body and time reminds me that I am on a slippery slope toward death ... I have the hope that following this first physical death is life abundant - full of peace and joy.

Certainty becomes it's own form of revelation. But unquestioned revelations are a doorway to madness.

To fear doubt is to fear truth. Because the truth is that certainty isn't part of the human condition. Faith is. And faith that pretends to be certain isn't really faith at all. It's just pretense pretending to be faith.

 

[annabenedetti]

Well, I'll have to take your word for it, I suppose. I also know that the reverse transit is possible, and the outcome can be quite satisfying. I suppose it depends a lot on who you are and what appeals to you.

What appeals to me is the idea that life doesn't stop at material death, that there's something waiting beyond to give purpose and meaning to the things that happen in this life. The idea that when I die I cease to exist in any way is an awful thing to contemplate.

Well, given the amount of time that I've spent with ministers in the past week, if it were going to happen, I would think it would be now. But I seriously doubt that it will.

How did you come to spend so much time with ministers in the past week?

As much regard as I have for some religious people, these included, I can't get over the fact that I'm quite sure that they're fundamentally wrong. But I do appreciate the thought in the spirit that it was offered.

Was there a time when you believed in God, or have you always been an atheist?

 

[PureX]

What appeals to me is the idea that life doesn't stop at material death, that there's something waiting beyond to give purpose and meaning to the things that happen in this life. The idea that when I die I cease to exist in any way is an awful thing to contemplate.

Why?

There are many admonitions to face down this "horror" within ourselves in eastern thought and religious tradition. I think their idea is that it's our egos that are so horrified by the idea of our ceasing to exist (of itself ceasing to exist), and that until we finally break our egocentric fear of death (as oblivion), we will never be able to fully appreciate the gift of life, or have the courage to live it fully. Perhaps Christianity is just kind of masking that fear by providing a false sense of invincibility, and is thus feeding the ego, instead of gaining mastery over it.

I'm not trying to start a fight or anything, just posting an alternative view, which you are of course free to debate, reject, or ignore.

 

[annabenedetti]

Why?

There are many admonitions to face down this "horror" within ourselves in eastern thought and religious tradition. I think their idea is that it's our egos that are so horrified by the idea of our ceasing to exist (of itself ceasing to exist), and that until we finally break our egocentric fear of death (as oblivion), we will never be able to fully appreciate the gift of life, or have the courage to live it fully. Perhaps Christianity is just kind of masking that fear by providing a false sense of invincibility, and is thus feeding the ego, instead of gaining mastery over it.

I'm not trying to start a fight or anything, just posting an alternative view, which you are of course free to debate, reject, or ignore.

I'll come back to this PureX, I don't have time to answer it at the moment.

 

[Ps82]

Certainty becomes it's own form of revelation. But unquestioned revelations are a doorway to madness.

To fear doubt is to fear truth. Because the truth is that certainty isn't part of the human condition. Faith is. And faith that pretends to be certain isn't really faith at all. It's just pretense pretending to be faith.

Hi PureX,
Thank you for reading my thoughts and responding.

I told you that you would dismiss my experiences... and that's okay.
You can believe what you want, but I know that I know.

I regret that you embrace doubt and fear truth. I agree with you that certainty is not part of the human condition, but the faith we are discussing regarding a creator and savior pertains to things unseen ... not "worldly things." A human may not have certainty in this life, but there is a promise for such in the next life.

The truth is that for more than 60 years I have been perfectly sane and normal... retiring comfortably from a long time career. My experiences have not hindered my marriage nor any part of my life in any way, but rather gave me peace and strength to get through some of life's rough uncertain times. If you choose to dismiss my experiences, that's fine. I'm not looking to you for salvation and comfort. I know in whom I believe and trust.

Have a blessed day.

 

[Psalmist]

toldailytopic: Which requires the greater faith, atheism or theism?​

​

IMHO

Atheism. Requires not much faith, except maybe hoping that Theism is just only opinions of no worth. They might as well buy a lawn chair and sit front yard and have a nice day, if the atheist's can believe that.

Theism. Requires a greater faith because of the seen and unseen factor, and staying committed to the Christian a life of faith, faith to keep on the narrow road until we arrive at the Celestial City.​

 

[Ps82]

toldailytopic: Which requires the greater faith, atheism or theism?​

​

IMHO

Atheism. Requires not much faith, except maybe hoping that Theism is just only opinions of no worth. They might as well buy a lawn chair and sit front yard and have a nice day, if the atheist's can believe that.

Theism. Requires a greater faith because of the seen and unseen factor, and staying committed to the Christian a life of faith, faith to keep on the narrow road until we arrive at the Celestial City.​

Stated so well.

 

[annabenedetti]

Why?

Because I want to live beyond my physical body in a state of eternal happiness with God. Isn't that a better thing than blank oblivion?

There are many admonitions to face down this "horror" within ourselves in eastern thought and religious tradition. I think their idea is that it's our egos that are so horrified by the idea of our ceasing to exist (of itself ceasing to exist), and that until we finally break our egocentric fear of death (as oblivion), we will never be able to fully appreciate the gift of life, or have the courage to live it fully. Perhaps Christianity is just kind of masking that fear by providing a false sense of invincibility, and is thus feeding the ego, instead of gaining mastery over it.

I'm scared of death, and I have been ever since I watched a loved one dying. Somehow, holding on to what I know is easier than letting go for something I don't. Saying that might send some of my Catholic and/or Christian friends reaching for their antacid medication, but it's where I'm at. I don't look at Christianity as giving me a sense of invincibility, not at all. So even though I hold to my faith, I'm can understand where an atheist is coming from, and sometimes trying to explain faith to an atheist... it sounds trite even to me, let alone the atheist - even though it's a mind-blowingly enormous idea.

I'm not trying to start a fight or anything, just posting an alternative view, which you are of course free to debate, reject, or ignore.

You're always good for an alternate view, PureX.

 

[PureX]

Because I want to live beyond my physical body in a state of eternal happiness with God. Isn't that a better thing than blank oblivion?

Hmmm ... what makes you think they are mutually exclusive? Couldn't my joy live on in others, as they experience the "God within" them? Couldn't my love live on through others as they in turn love each other? What exactly is it about "me" that is so important, anyway? After all, everything I am can be found in bits and pieces in everyone else. If I just look around.

When I see two young lovers on the street, I think to myself, 'I know them'. I know what they're feeling. And when I see other people in general, I think, 'they're loved by their families, just as I'm loved by mine. And they suffer, too, sometimes, just as I do. Those feelings are living in and through them, now, that also live in me, and that make me who I am. When I let go of "me", I see that everything I am, and ever was, is still here, in them. And is still being lived.

I'm scared of death, and I have been ever since I watched a loved one die. Somehow, holding on to what I know is easier than letting go for something I don't.

It's a specter we all have to face sooner or later. I used to fear it a lot, too. I don't so much, anymore. And I think that's because I don't hold myself so preciously, anymore. I have realized that my ego isn't really looking out for me, or caring about me, it's just looking out for itself, and cares only about preserving itself. And the more clearly I can come to see this, the more power I have over it, by my ability to ignore it's incessant fears and needs.

I don't look at Christianity as giving me a sense of invincibility, not at all. So even though I hold to my faith, I can understand where an atheist is coming from, and sometimes trying to explain faith to an atheist... it sounds trite even to me, let alone the atheist - even though it's a mind-blowingly enormous idea.

It is indeed! It's heartbreaking to see religion so badly represented, so often, by so many. When in truth it can be enormously reasonable, positive, beneficial, and joyful. And I agree, it's difficult to find the words to explain how this is so, to others, especially when you will have to do so at the same time as taking heat from those who are supposed to be your brethren in Christ.

But in the end our light shines out from our hearts, not from our intellect, or our imagined 'righteousness'. And those with eyes that can see, will see that light for sure.

 

[annabenedetti]

This is going to be a little hard to work through because our religious beliefs are so different, but I'll do my best:

Hmmm ... what makes you think they are mutually exclusive? Couldn't my joy live on in others, as they experience the "God within" them? Couldn't my love live on through others as they in turn love each other?

What exactly is it about "me" that is so important, anyway? After all, everything I am can be found in bits and pieces in everyone else. If I just look around.

When I see two young lovers on the street, I think to myself, 'I know them'. I know what they're feeling. And when I see other people in general, I think, 'they're loved by their families, just as I'm loved by mine. And they suffer, too, sometimes, just as I do. Those feelings are living in and through them, now, that also live in me, and that make me who I am. When I let go of "me", I see that everything I am, and ever was, is still here, in them. And is still being lived.

Would I, could I live on in others? No... in memories, sure, I would hope for that, in the way a decision made or action taken or emotion felt by a loved one might be a connection to or a result of the memory of who I was to that person.

I don't believe in a "God within" in the way I think you do.

As for what about "me" is so important...nothing at all, really, except to those who love me, and most importantly, to the God who loved me enough to die for me and to give me a name that is mine alone, who is willing to come search for me when I wander away, and who waits for me when I rebel.

It is indeed! It's heartbreaking to see religion so badly represented, so often, by so many. When in truth it can be enormously reasonable, positive, beneficial, and joyful. And I agree, it's difficult to find the words to explain how this is so, to others, especially when you will have to do so at the same time as taking heat from those who are supposed to be your brethren in Christ.

Well, there's the genuine desire on the part of many to want to correct what they see as heretical. Often, the motivation behind the zeal isn't what it's meant to be. Not always, of course, there are some really beautiful souls here who reflect the light of Christ and they've been a blessing and a help to me and many others.