Cracked
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James 2:13 - mercy is greater, and mercy comes from love...
Nehemiah 13:22, Micah 6:8
toldailytopic: What is the meaning of life?
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James 2:13 - mercy is greater, and mercy comes from love...
Nehemiah 13:22, Micah 6:8
Berachyah Yisrael
New member
And yet with each verse we speak of those that obey and ask for Yah's mercy.
Cracked
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And yet Christ came to die for those who sin.
Berachyah Yisrael
New member
Rom 3:25 whom Elohim set forth to be an atoning sacrifice, through faith in his blood, for a demonstration of his righteousness through the passing over of prior sins, in Elohim's forbearance;
Rom 3:26 to demonstrate his righteousness at this present time; that he might himself be just, and the justifier of him who has faith in Yahshua.
Heb 10:17 "I will remember their sins and their iniquities no more."
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
Heb 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more a sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which will devour the adversaries.
If you sin willfully after knowing better, you better hope Yah have mercy on you.
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I only know the ultimate answer is 42. But I've heard the great philosopher Monty Python had something to say on the meaning of life.
I have no clue and if I spent too much time on that it would take time away from human relationships.
I also like the answer about 'relationships' being the meaning of life. How we interact with others and build them up physically or emotionally in a positive way can make the world a better place and that positiveness will spread.
Divine coincidences never cease to amaze me.
Divine coincidences never cease to amaze me.
I have looked for many years for the succinct and pithy answer to the question "what is the meaning of life", and its corollary "what is the purpose for living", that has itched my soul for so long.
The answer came to me out of the ethereal nowhere as an epiphany only three weeks ago.
And it was just this morning that I ordered 100 wall calendars with this revelation imprinted on it.
God will seed the earth with it this coming Christmas. He's already started.
Divine coincidences never cease to amaze me.
I have looked for many years for the succinct and pithy answer to the question "what is the meaning of life", and its corollary "what is the purpose for living", that has itched my soul for so long.
The answer came to me out of the ethereal nowhere as an epiphany only three weeks ago.
And it was just this morning that I ordered 100 wall calendars with this revelation imprinted on it.
God will seed the earth with it this coming Christmas. He's already started.
The meaning of life -
That one soul might be saved;
And purpose for living,
That one more may be too.
Let eternity be your guide.
That one soul might be saved;
And purpose for living,
That one more may be too.
Let eternity be your guide.
nicholsmom
New member
I'd go with 42 since it's really the question that is confusing.
Life has meaning because God had purpose in creating it. So I guess you could look at it as a generic (non-theistic) version for "Why did God create life?"
To that I'd say, because it pleased Him to do so.
Or you could mean, "For what purpose did God create life?"
To that I'd say, as with all He does, I don't know, but it must be something good.
Or you might mean, "What is God's purpose for making me?"
To that I'd say, to glorify Him, which is to say to draw other eyes to Himself so that they might also see Him and be transformed.
I know I'm barely scratching the surface here, but I'm not very clear on the topic.
johncalvinhall
New member
Thank you for your answer and... welcome to TheologyOnline!
Well said, and welcome to TheologyOnline.com we look forward to more of your posts! :up:
Excellent answer and... welcome to TheologyOnline.com.
Welcome to TheologyOnline.com, we appreciate your participation very much!
If the meaning of life centers around relationships then clearly this thread is giving us all more meaning in life because look at all the new relationships we are making!
We welcome all the new folks and appreciate you very much. :up:
We welcome all the new folks and appreciate you very much. :up:
King David
New member
Let me speak - don't try to "correct" me - let me simply convey, PLEASE!
Let me speak - don't try to "correct" me - let me simply convey, PLEASE!
I have not posted much in quite a while. And, normally, I would not venture back here (I have so many important things in my life to get done, for my family & myself). However, the question Knight initially posed, and that others have extended corollaries on, is most important.
What is the meaning of life? What is the purpose of life? Why did God put us here on earth? And, yes, if you want, we can even broach the atheists' & agnostics' question, did God place us here on earth? (But this last one I may tackle, though, in a much later post).
I am a member of 'The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints', known popularly, or otherwise, as "Mormons". (We have long been called "Mormons" because we believe that while most all that is revealed in the Bible is of God—Song of Solomon, for example, is an exception—and inasmuch as the Bible has been or is translated correctly, we believe that just as God is eternal, his life has no beginning nor no end, likewise we believe that his words have no beginning, NOR NO END.
Hence, as even as was expressed of the words given during his sojourn on the earth, we find this assessment of Christ's words—
The beloved apostle John wrote—
24 This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true.
25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.
(New Testament | John 21:24 - 25)
Certainly, if his works are endless, so are his words.
Hence, we accept The Book of Mormon, which we believe was translated by Joseph Smith in the late 1820's by the gift and power of God.
Again, elsewhere on this forum, I would, time permitting, happily debate this belief we have and the reasons for my belief. But here, I state it to lay a foundation for the reasons I intend to give regarding the purpose of life as I and other 'Latter-Day Saints' ("saints" anciently, as in our church, are members of that church), or LDS ("Mormons" if you like).
In the book of Moses, found in the canonized (by the LDS Church) book called The Pearl of Great Price, (which book is actually, as we believe it, the restored first portion of the Book of Genesis that Joseph Smith 'restored' by also the gift and power of God (or so Mormons, like me, believe), the Lord, speaking to Moses "upon an exceedingly high mountain" declared this to him—
37 And the Lord God spake unto Moses, saying: The heavens, they are many, and they cannot be numbered unto man; but they are numbered unto me, for they are mine.
38 And as one earth shall pass away, and the heavens thereof even so shall another come, and there is no end to my works, neither to my words.
39 For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.
40 And now, Moses, my son, I will speak unto thee concerning this earth upon which thou standest; and thou shalt write the things which I shall speak.
(Pearl of Great Price | Moses 1:37 - 40)
Now, let me touch upon a nuance here. For many years, I did not always pay attention to the details as well as I do now. For example, where God declared "the immortality and eternal life of man", I kinduv viewed this as one of the flowery parts of (Mormon) scripture. That is, until I realized that the two are not (at least to Mormons) the same, though they may, at first blush, appear to be to most people (Mormons and non-Mormons), I thought this was one of those "department of redundancy department" items. But I was wrong.
'Immortality' has to do with living forever. In LDS or Mormon theology, in fact (and again, I'm not looking for you to necessarily accept what I here state & personally believe), we believe, as expressed in the book of revelations received by Joseph Smith, which is called the book of "Doctrine & Covenants", it is explained—
7 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;
8 We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter.
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 131:7 - 8)
And, also (jam packed in the next 21 verses is a lot of information, doctrine, and, I believe (don't fight me here & now on this forum / again, I present it to try to logically convey to you the LDS or Mormon view of the purpose/s of life)—
19 I give unto you these sayings that you may understand and know how to worship, and know what you worship, that you may come unto the Father in my name, and in due time receive of his fulness.
20 For if you keep my commandments you shall receive of his fulness, and be glorified in me as I am in the Father; therefore, I say unto you, you shall receive grace for grace.
21 And now, verily I say unto you, I was in the beginning with the Father, and am the Firstborn;
22 And all those who are begotten through me are partakers of the glory of the same, and are the church of the Firstborn.
23 Ye were also in the beginning with the Father; that which is Spirit, even the Spirit of truth;
24 And truth is knowledge of things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come (BTW, a most excellent definition of truth);
25 And whatsoever is more or less than this is the spirit of that wicked one who was a liar from the beginning.
26 The Spirit of truth is of God. I am the Spirit of truth, and John bore record of me, saying: He received a fulness of truth, yea, even of all truth;
27 And no man receiveth a fulness unless he keepeth his commandments.
28 He that keepeth his commandments receiveth truth and light, until he is glorified in truth and knoweth all things.
29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.
30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.
31 Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light.
32 And every man whose spirit receiveth not the light is under condemnation.
33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;
34 And when separated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy.
35 The elements are the tabernacle of God; yea, man is the tabernacle of God, even temples; and whatsoever temple is defiled, God shall destroy that temple.
36 The glory of God is intelligence, or, in other words, light and truth.
37 Light and truth forsake that evil one.
38 Every spirit of man was innocent in the beginning; and God having redeemed man from the fall, men became again, in their infant state, innocent before God.[/color]
39 And that wicked one cometh and taketh away light and truth, through disobedience, from the children of men, and because of the tradition of their fathers.
40 But I have commanded you to bring up your children in light and truth.
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 93:19 - 40)
BUT, "ETERNAL LIFE" is this—
1 THESE words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
(New Testament | John 17:1 - 3)
Now, to understand another nuance, we need to read a little from the apostle Paul. He wrote—
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 13:12)
What I, 'King David', believe that Paul is saying here, is this. To know someone is more, MUCH MORE, than to be acquainted with them. For one to REALLY KNOW GOD, one must become LIKE GOD!!!
Now, I am absolutely acutely aware that this appears to fly directly in the face of 'traditional Christian' doctrine. I am not asking you here to accept, believe or even reject this idea. I am telling you this so that you might understand what we ("Mormons") and specifically what I, 'King David', believe!
Again, I ask you not to feel forced to necessarily have to comment one way or the other on this. I am only trying to present or convey to you OUR understanding of God's purposes for this life, and hence what ours is or can be (if one accepts and acts upon it). But, that part in parentheses lastly, I am not asking anyone to forcibly act upon it, nor to fight it. Just view it as "Oh, so that's what Mormons believe the meaning of life is", and, in this thread, let's please leave it at that—I can "fight" or "argue" or "debate" this issue (again, time permitting), on other threads on TOL, but here, in the next number of posts I want to send (but can't all at once) & put on this thread as a FYI as to what one religious group, namely "Mormons", believe!
To summarize,
Latter-Day Saints ("Mormons") BELIEVE—
Both the spirit and the elements (the Biblical "dust of the ground") that man (& woman) are made of are eternal. They have always existed (in some form). They will always exist or endure.
Creation, as Mormons believe it, was not ex nihilo. Just as my wife can "create" a chocolate cake, nonetheless, she "creates" it not out of thin air, but rather by using existing materials.
'Spirit' is ALSO matter, but it is a purer or finer form of matter. It too, has always existed (in some form), and will always exist.
Some others have talked about 'angels' rebelling. We understand, through several revelations that give us hints and glimpses (but not necessarily a full view) of what happened, we all lived with God, as 'spirits', and possibly even before that as 'intelligences' (or the two may be the same). Many, many, many individuals lived with God before. In fact, I believe that this is what Jesus was referring to when he spoke of little children—
10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.
11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
(New Testament | Matthew 18:10 - 11)
You see, I, 'King David', personally believe that the verses just above are referring to the spirits of children before they are born "...do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven". This is NOT 'MORMON DOCTRINE', per se (it could be & it might be), but as far as I know, this is only MY belief that those verses are speaking of where children are "FRESH" from being in the presence of our Father in Heaven!
And, because, as I explain below, we (Mormons) believe that children are innocent, because we believe that the atonement of Christ is and has been in full effect since before the world was even made, children, because they cannot fully choose, are made perfect and innocent and guiltless of sin by the redemption wrought by the Savior in the Garden of Gethsemane and on the cross.
While Mormons definitely believe in the fall of man via Adam and Eve partaking of the forbidden fruit, we also believe that the redemption of God, made possible by the atonement of Jesus Christ in the meridian of time, was part of a plan God the Father presented to all of his spirit children in a grand council that was held before the world was even created (or, as the account in the Book of Abraham, in The Pearl of Great Price would put it), before the earth was "organized", or the elements were put in the forms, shapes, etc they are now in.
And, because of the integrity of Jesus Christ, the Father knew, and we all knew, that he was the only one who could and would live a life without sin, and was the only one who could accomplish this mission. And, because he was, God the Father 'anointed' him then and there to be the propitiation for our sin, so that he, God, can be both a just AND a merciful God also.
Anyway, I will try to explain a bit of this later. My point was to point out that this is where 1/3 of all the hosts of heaven, 'angels', or, if you will, 'spirits' (of men & women), followed the plan of one who presented a plan that was an alternative to the Father's plan. Lucifer offered to come down and force everyone to be good, and since none would be lost, as under God the Father's plan, he wanted to be in power & position above God the Father. The Father, and all of us, knowing Lucifer, literally, to be "a liar from the beginning"—his plan really being untenable, un-do-able, since God had given us our agency (our ability &/or opportunity to act or choose for ourselves), this agency would have to be taken away—which thing neither God nor we would allow to be done.
Lucifer (the 'dragon') and those who supported him fought against "Michael" (whose name means, "like unto God") and the other 2/3 of the hosts of heaven (all who have been, are or will be born upon the earth). We prevailed. They were defeated. And they were (eventually) cast down upon this earth (after it was made).
And, as whomever it was who said it, that rebellion was indeed terrible. So terrible, that the heavens wept over them (including God, as I am sure we all did). No family fight is pleasant. But, as the scriptures attest, God and his people, sometimes, have to exercise what we would call today "tough love"!
Mormons believe, therefore, that the REDEMPTION OF MAN FROM THE FALL was AS GOOD AS DONE even BEFORE man was placed upon the earth, because JESUS CHRIST was/is/& will always be a man of his word. A being of perfect integrity. Hence, before he came to earth, Jesus was a God.
I will present a bit more another day.
Thanks, in advance, for (my anticipation of) your acceptance of my request regarding debating or arguing HERE what I present.
Heretofore, on this thread, I have found most of the comments to not be generally combative—which might be considered a bit of an aberration, even for 'Christians' (including if you will, as 'I' and 'we' view 'ourselves', that is 'Mormons', to also be 'Christians'—that ON THIS BELIEF WE HOLD OF OURSELVES—again, I am not asking for you to necessarily accept or reject on THIS THREAD, anyway)! Hence, for me at least, not to be combative in apologetics, can be a BIG accomplishment!
(further explanations of the LDS view on this question to follow here & there ON THIS THREAD for purely FYI purposes, by me 'King David', as I am able to post them)
Let me speak - don't try to "correct" me - let me simply convey, PLEASE!
I have not posted much in quite a while. And, normally, I would not venture back here (I have so many important things in my life to get done, for my family & myself). However, the question Knight initially posed, and that others have extended corollaries on, is most important.
What is the meaning of life? What is the purpose of life? Why did God put us here on earth? And, yes, if you want, we can even broach the atheists' & agnostics' question, did God place us here on earth? (But this last one I may tackle, though, in a much later post).
I am a member of 'The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints', known popularly, or otherwise, as "Mormons". (We have long been called "Mormons" because we believe that while most all that is revealed in the Bible is of God—Song of Solomon, for example, is an exception—and inasmuch as the Bible has been or is translated correctly, we believe that just as God is eternal, his life has no beginning nor no end, likewise we believe that his words have no beginning, NOR NO END.
Hence, as even as was expressed of the words given during his sojourn on the earth, we find this assessment of Christ's words—
The beloved apostle John wrote—
24 This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true.
25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.
(New Testament | John 21:24 - 25)
Certainly, if his works are endless, so are his words.
Hence, we accept The Book of Mormon, which we believe was translated by Joseph Smith in the late 1820's by the gift and power of God.
Again, elsewhere on this forum, I would, time permitting, happily debate this belief we have and the reasons for my belief. But here, I state it to lay a foundation for the reasons I intend to give regarding the purpose of life as I and other 'Latter-Day Saints' ("saints" anciently, as in our church, are members of that church), or LDS ("Mormons" if you like).
In the book of Moses, found in the canonized (by the LDS Church) book called The Pearl of Great Price, (which book is actually, as we believe it, the restored first portion of the Book of Genesis that Joseph Smith 'restored' by also the gift and power of God (or so Mormons, like me, believe), the Lord, speaking to Moses "upon an exceedingly high mountain" declared this to him—
37 And the Lord God spake unto Moses, saying: The heavens, they are many, and they cannot be numbered unto man; but they are numbered unto me, for they are mine.
38 And as one earth shall pass away, and the heavens thereof even so shall another come, and there is no end to my works, neither to my words.
39 For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.
40 And now, Moses, my son, I will speak unto thee concerning this earth upon which thou standest; and thou shalt write the things which I shall speak.
(Pearl of Great Price | Moses 1:37 - 40)
Now, let me touch upon a nuance here. For many years, I did not always pay attention to the details as well as I do now. For example, where God declared "the immortality and eternal life of man", I kinduv viewed this as one of the flowery parts of (Mormon) scripture. That is, until I realized that the two are not (at least to Mormons) the same, though they may, at first blush, appear to be to most people (Mormons and non-Mormons), I thought this was one of those "department of redundancy department" items. But I was wrong.
'Immortality' has to do with living forever. In LDS or Mormon theology, in fact (and again, I'm not looking for you to necessarily accept what I here state & personally believe), we believe, as expressed in the book of revelations received by Joseph Smith, which is called the book of "Doctrine & Covenants", it is explained—
7 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;
8 We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter.
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 131:7 - 8)
And, also (jam packed in the next 21 verses is a lot of information, doctrine, and, I believe (don't fight me here & now on this forum / again, I present it to try to logically convey to you the LDS or Mormon view of the purpose/s of life)—
19 I give unto you these sayings that you may understand and know how to worship, and know what you worship, that you may come unto the Father in my name, and in due time receive of his fulness.
20 For if you keep my commandments you shall receive of his fulness, and be glorified in me as I am in the Father; therefore, I say unto you, you shall receive grace for grace.
21 And now, verily I say unto you, I was in the beginning with the Father, and am the Firstborn;
22 And all those who are begotten through me are partakers of the glory of the same, and are the church of the Firstborn.
23 Ye were also in the beginning with the Father; that which is Spirit, even the Spirit of truth;
24 And truth is knowledge of things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come (BTW, a most excellent definition of truth);
25 And whatsoever is more or less than this is the spirit of that wicked one who was a liar from the beginning.
26 The Spirit of truth is of God. I am the Spirit of truth, and John bore record of me, saying: He received a fulness of truth, yea, even of all truth;
27 And no man receiveth a fulness unless he keepeth his commandments.
28 He that keepeth his commandments receiveth truth and light, until he is glorified in truth and knoweth all things.
29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.
30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.
31 Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light.
32 And every man whose spirit receiveth not the light is under condemnation.
33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;
34 And when separated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy.
35 The elements are the tabernacle of God; yea, man is the tabernacle of God, even temples; and whatsoever temple is defiled, God shall destroy that temple.
36 The glory of God is intelligence, or, in other words, light and truth.
37 Light and truth forsake that evil one.
38 Every spirit of man was innocent in the beginning; and God having redeemed man from the fall, men became again, in their infant state, innocent before God.[/color]
39 And that wicked one cometh and taketh away light and truth, through disobedience, from the children of men, and because of the tradition of their fathers.
40 But I have commanded you to bring up your children in light and truth.
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 93:19 - 40)
BUT, "ETERNAL LIFE" is this—
1 THESE words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
(New Testament | John 17:1 - 3)
Now, to understand another nuance, we need to read a little from the apostle Paul. He wrote—
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 13:12)
What I, 'King David', believe that Paul is saying here, is this. To know someone is more, MUCH MORE, than to be acquainted with them. For one to REALLY KNOW GOD, one must become LIKE GOD!!!
Now, I am absolutely acutely aware that this appears to fly directly in the face of 'traditional Christian' doctrine. I am not asking you here to accept, believe or even reject this idea. I am telling you this so that you might understand what we ("Mormons") and specifically what I, 'King David', believe!
Again, I ask you not to feel forced to necessarily have to comment one way or the other on this. I am only trying to present or convey to you OUR understanding of God's purposes for this life, and hence what ours is or can be (if one accepts and acts upon it). But, that part in parentheses lastly, I am not asking anyone to forcibly act upon it, nor to fight it. Just view it as "Oh, so that's what Mormons believe the meaning of life is", and, in this thread, let's please leave it at that—I can "fight" or "argue" or "debate" this issue (again, time permitting), on other threads on TOL, but here, in the next number of posts I want to send (but can't all at once) & put on this thread as a FYI as to what one religious group, namely "Mormons", believe!
To summarize,
Latter-Day Saints ("Mormons") BELIEVE—
Both the spirit and the elements (the Biblical "dust of the ground") that man (& woman) are made of are eternal. They have always existed (in some form). They will always exist or endure.
Creation, as Mormons believe it, was not ex nihilo. Just as my wife can "create" a chocolate cake, nonetheless, she "creates" it not out of thin air, but rather by using existing materials.
'Spirit' is ALSO matter, but it is a purer or finer form of matter. It too, has always existed (in some form), and will always exist.
Some others have talked about 'angels' rebelling. We understand, through several revelations that give us hints and glimpses (but not necessarily a full view) of what happened, we all lived with God, as 'spirits', and possibly even before that as 'intelligences' (or the two may be the same). Many, many, many individuals lived with God before. In fact, I believe that this is what Jesus was referring to when he spoke of little children—
10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.
11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
(New Testament | Matthew 18:10 - 11)
You see, I, 'King David', personally believe that the verses just above are referring to the spirits of children before they are born "...do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven". This is NOT 'MORMON DOCTRINE', per se (it could be & it might be), but as far as I know, this is only MY belief that those verses are speaking of where children are "FRESH" from being in the presence of our Father in Heaven!
And, because, as I explain below, we (Mormons) believe that children are innocent, because we believe that the atonement of Christ is and has been in full effect since before the world was even made, children, because they cannot fully choose, are made perfect and innocent and guiltless of sin by the redemption wrought by the Savior in the Garden of Gethsemane and on the cross.
While Mormons definitely believe in the fall of man via Adam and Eve partaking of the forbidden fruit, we also believe that the redemption of God, made possible by the atonement of Jesus Christ in the meridian of time, was part of a plan God the Father presented to all of his spirit children in a grand council that was held before the world was even created (or, as the account in the Book of Abraham, in The Pearl of Great Price would put it), before the earth was "organized", or the elements were put in the forms, shapes, etc they are now in.
And, because of the integrity of Jesus Christ, the Father knew, and we all knew, that he was the only one who could and would live a life without sin, and was the only one who could accomplish this mission. And, because he was, God the Father 'anointed' him then and there to be the propitiation for our sin, so that he, God, can be both a just AND a merciful God also.
Anyway, I will try to explain a bit of this later. My point was to point out that this is where 1/3 of all the hosts of heaven, 'angels', or, if you will, 'spirits' (of men & women), followed the plan of one who presented a plan that was an alternative to the Father's plan. Lucifer offered to come down and force everyone to be good, and since none would be lost, as under God the Father's plan, he wanted to be in power & position above God the Father. The Father, and all of us, knowing Lucifer, literally, to be "a liar from the beginning"—his plan really being untenable, un-do-able, since God had given us our agency (our ability &/or opportunity to act or choose for ourselves), this agency would have to be taken away—which thing neither God nor we would allow to be done.
Lucifer (the 'dragon') and those who supported him fought against "Michael" (whose name means, "like unto God") and the other 2/3 of the hosts of heaven (all who have been, are or will be born upon the earth). We prevailed. They were defeated. And they were (eventually) cast down upon this earth (after it was made).
And, as whomever it was who said it, that rebellion was indeed terrible. So terrible, that the heavens wept over them (including God, as I am sure we all did). No family fight is pleasant. But, as the scriptures attest, God and his people, sometimes, have to exercise what we would call today "tough love"!
Mormons believe, therefore, that the REDEMPTION OF MAN FROM THE FALL was AS GOOD AS DONE even BEFORE man was placed upon the earth, because JESUS CHRIST was/is/& will always be a man of his word. A being of perfect integrity. Hence, before he came to earth, Jesus was a God.
I will present a bit more another day.
Thanks, in advance, for (my anticipation of) your acceptance of my request regarding debating or arguing HERE what I present.
Heretofore, on this thread, I have found most of the comments to not be generally combative—which might be considered a bit of an aberration, even for 'Christians' (including if you will, as 'I' and 'we' view 'ourselves', that is 'Mormons', to also be 'Christians'—that ON THIS BELIEF WE HOLD OF OURSELVES—again, I am not asking for you to necessarily accept or reject on THIS THREAD, anyway)! Hence, for me at least, not to be combative in apologetics, can be a BIG accomplishment!
(further explanations of the LDS view on this question to follow here & there ON THIS THREAD for purely FYI purposes, by me 'King David', as I am able to post them)
I did not succeed to quote the passus about prophesy.
In many respect the western world is now damned. Of course in USA the atheism is not still of the level as in northern Europe. EU wish to decrease religious obstacle to market economy. It crushed the serbs (ortodox). Now it is after the habit to keep crucifixes in the scools in Italy. I sometimes feel as if I find no-one to relate to but God. You cannot relate to the damned. I then want to flee to another part of the world. But I do not know wether this is the purpose with my life. He sent me once to India to Calcutta.
They have made a society of hostile strangers here.We ought to be ONE in Christ!Even the muslims exhort muslims to leave a country where sin, blasphemy and victimisations of the faitful is a rule. This our suffering is to be felt as increasing from day to day. US should not support EU in its persecutions referring to political motives.- This chill will reach you too. Instead talk religion and faith with Europe so that they can be used to it. Of course we assume that they are not going to convert to faith any longer, but to further the doom they must be preeched to.
As you can see, I joined a while ago and then immediately stopped coming. Thanks for the TOL email that got me back here.
Aimiel
Well-known member
None is righteous, not one. Countries cannot get saved, only people.
Well, if you do relate to Him, He'll bring you down to our level. He knows how to chasten the proud.
Why not? Jesus did.
The Kingdom of Heaven suffers violence and the violent take It by force. Become violent in your prayer closet. God hates lukewarm Christians. :thumb:
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