That is exactly what I'm saying. It's good to see you agree. Welcome aboard!
toldailytopic: What is the meaning of life?
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icilian fenner
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Since I don't think we are the product of any kind of conscious design, I don't think there is any. Obviously we can put values on things ourselves, and often do do.
But why does God want to be glorified if not because it pleases Him?
But why does God want to have the preeminence in all things if not because it pleases Him?
I don't have a problem with that translation either. It also doesn't contradict my point. Everything exists because of God's will. And the reason why God wills everything to exist is because it pleases Him.
But why did He want them to "live" if not because it would please Him?
But why did God create us to glorify Him if not because it gives Him pleasure?
Because He alone is worthy of glory. All that is is made to show forth His glory. God is well-pleased in the eternal felicity of the Godhead. We cannot possibly increase or decrease that pleasure. Glory - rather than pleasure - is the only answer that gives a satisfactory answer to the problem of evil. The cosmos is the self-actualization of the Most High, for only in a world with sin can He display His righteousness and mercy. Only in a world with sinners can Christ be glorified as the obedient son and redeemer of that which is utterly unworthy of Him.
Ad majorem dei gloria!
The first thing we did was rebel! That's the first thing we always do. How is our sin increasing His pleasure? Nay, it is for His glory! His righteousness and holiness are glorified when He consigns a sinner to hell; His mercy and lovingkindness are glorified when He saves one for His own.
When you do something nice for someone you are "worthy" of a "Thank you." But is that the primary reason why you want to hear a "Thank you"? Just because you're worthy of it? No. The primary reason why is because it pleases you. It pleases you to be reassured that the person you did the favor for is a polite and grateful person. Therefore you are even more pleased that this person you care about has enough social grace to live a decent life for the benefit of both themselves and others. You are also pleased to know this person, instead of thinking of you as some lower class servant who's existence is to serve them, instead respects you enough to say, "Thank you." You do something nice for someone in order to please them. Then they return the favor (of pleasing you) by doing something nice for you by saying "Thank you." Yes, you are "worthy" of a "Thank you" but that's not the primary reason why they say it.
All that is is made to show forth His glory for His pleasure. FauxReal, when someone on earth does something that "glorifies" God, what do think His reaction is? Apathy?
The following verses disagree with you:
John 8:29 - And He who sent Me is with Me. The Father has not left Me alone, for I always do those things which please Him.
1Thes 4:1 - For the rest, then, my brothers, we beseech you and exhort you in the Lord Jesus, that, as you have received from us how you ought to walk and to please God, so you would abound more and more.
Hebrews 11:6 - But without faith it is impossible to please Him
And when He succeeds in achieving that glory, what is His reaction to that success? Apathy?
FauxReal, when you say God wants us to "glorify" Him, what exactly to do you mean by that? Do you mean we somehow "increase" His glory? Who do we glorify God to? To God? To other people? For the benefit of whom?
What in the world does your armchair psychologizing have to do with God alone being worthy of glory and therefore the one who alone should receive it?
God is always pleased with righteousness and always displeased with sin. We're not disagreeing on that. What we disagree with is that He's some kind of pleasure-seeking cosmic playboy rather than the King of the Universe who is worthy of adoration for His own sake.
Unlike some people, I'm not going to pretend I'm God's psychiatrist. I'm just going to stick with what He has revealed in Scripture. There you don't find Him saying, "I will deliver you because it pleases me." Rather you see Him saying, "I will deliver you that you may know that I am God."
The question was not, "What does God want" but "what is the meaning of life/man's purpose." Our purpose and that of all creation is to glorify God (i.e. give Him the worship and honor -, appreciation and adoration, affection and subjection - due Him, 1 Chr 29:10-12). Nature glorifies His creativity and majesty and power (Psa 19:1, Psa 29). The unregenerate man glorifies His righteousness and justice and holiness (Eze 39:21, Mal 2:2). The saved man glorifies His mercy and loving-kindness and beneficence (Isa 48:9-11). Even God glorifies Himself. The Son glorifies the Father in His obedience; the Father and Spirit glorify the Son (Phil 2:5-11). He is highest in His thoughts. This is not some egomaniacal self-aggrandizing hedonism, but it is delighting in Himself and in His goodness and in His power and in His majesty. God's very essence is His infinite, holy glory.
Glorifying is not just increasing esteem in the eyes of others. (Which is how it seems you understand it.) It benefits us because we are then thinking God's thoughts after Him - this is the mind of Christ.
Why?
Why?
Jefferson, you act like a child: why, why, why? I understand your question, but some things are just unknown. Like why does a person do the things he does? Why? Sometimes you can get to the bottom of why, but sometimes it's unknowable. And really, trying to understand the mind of God, is really unknowable.
I am a Christian, not because I understand all of Gods ways (i do understand some, like any thinking person), no one can know all of Gods ways. I'm a Christian because i realize that I am a sinfull creature, i know that there is nothing i can do on my own to pay for my sins, and that only a belief in Jesus Christ, and the mercy of God, can i ever hope to live with Him forever in heaven.
The question of "what is the meaning of life" is a fun question for Christians (or anyone really) to ponder and debate, but our opinion in the matter really means nothing in the grand scheme of things. Just a fun topic.
God bless
Why?
Jefferson, you act like a child: why, why, why? I understand your question, but some things are just unknown. Like why does a person do the things he does? Why? Sometimes you can get to the bottom of why, but sometimes it's unknowable. And really, trying to understand the mind of God, is really unknowable.
I am a Christian, not because I understand all of Gods ways (i do understand some, like any thinking person), no one can know all of Gods ways. I'm a Christian because i realize that I am a sinfull creature, i know that there is nothing i can do on my own to pay for my sins, and that only a belief in Jesus Christ, and the mercy of God, can i ever hope to live with Him forever in heaven.
The question of "what is the meaning of life" is a fun question for Christians (or anyone really) to ponder and debate, but our opinion in the matter really means nothing in the grand scheme of things. Just a fun topic.
God bless
Berachyah Yisrael
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I have no ill intentions here but only wish to share with you my understanding as you have shared with us yours..............
Do you believe the bible as the inspired word of Elohim? You don't believe that Elohim would lie to you, right? I mean what you read that is straight forward and easy to understand is just what it is, right? If Elohim told man as a whole to do something then you know that it was for everyone correct? If it is that straight forward and easy to understand then one might think it is something that Elohim would want everyone to know without question, correct?
I submit that the meaning of life is just as simple as this and that it has been given. Remember that we are not to add to nor take away from His word. When He speaks it is just what He says, nothing more and nothing less. I believe everyone that believes in the same El Shaddai believes this one basic and simplistic understanding. I could be wrong but in my experiences with others it has been so.
If Elohim told you via His prophet what the whole duty of man was then that would have to be it, right? I mean the whole duty of something would be what it was expected to do by that which created it, right? It would be its whole purpose for being and the reason it was created, correct?
Then I will repeat what I have thus already posted earlier as to the basic and simplistic word of Yah my Elohim as to what He said our purpose is and the reason He created man here on this earth......
Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Revere Elohim, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
Ecc 12:14 For Elohim shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
That’s it. Nothing more and nothing less. Why do we continue to make it so hard when it is meant to be so simple? Are we so blind as not to be able to see what is plainly sitting right in front of us? It is written that it is so.
You said why you are a christian and the understanding of such. I am a Sinaiticist because of the simplistic word that I just shared and it is backed up by my big brother and King Yahshua Ha Moshiach Ben Daweed when he stated…………..
Mat 19:17 He said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good but one, that is, Elohim. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."
See he also stated………..
Mat 22:36 "Rabbi, which is the greatest commandment in the Torah?"
Mat 22:37 Yahshua said to him, "'You shall love YAH your Elohim with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.'
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Thus upholding the same as in the Torah where it is so commanded……….
Deu 6:5 and you shall love YAH your Elohim with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might.
And Yochanan defined what the love of Yah our Elohim is with his statement of………….
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of Elohim, that we keep his commandments. His commandments are not grievous.
We also believe in the faith of Yahshua as it is that which is also commanded us to do. It is also a part of our love for the Father that we believe on His only begotten son of the dead. It is part of the patience of the righteous……..
Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the holy ones, those who keep the commandments of Elohim, and the faith of Yahshua.
Again this is without adding too or taking away from. It is our whole duty and it is our love that we obey and do the will of our Father. That is the conclusion of the whole matter and is something that is as simplistic and plain for all to see. Many just choose not to.
As in the parable that Yahshua shared of the wedding party. It was said that many were asked but few were chosen. I offer that many where asked but few chose to come. Some made light of it while others came up with their own vain excuses as why they would not go as to their farms or their business.
It's called the Socratic method of argumentation. I know the answer. I'm asking the question to show the person I'm debating that they don't know the answer.
The Bible disagrees with you:
Colossians 1:10 - "That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God"
Ephesians 1:17-21 - "that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him"
Are you kidding? What you think the answer to this question is affects how you live your entire life. Look how this answer affected how Jesus Christ Himself lived: "The Father has not left Me alone, for I always do those things which please Him. John 8:29
Please respond without dodging my question. Here it is again:
When you do something nice for someone you are "worthy" of a "Thank you." But is that the primary reason why you want to hear a "Thank you"? Just because you're worthy of it?
Yes or No FauxReal.
Therefore when you live a righteous life you have increased God's pleasure. Therefore God is not immutable in every way. Right???
Then why did Jesus "always do those things which please Him."? (John 8:29)
Oh? Scripture says our very deliverance from sin to salvation was for his pleasure:
Romans 8:8 - "So then they who are in the flesh cannot please God."
Why would you think they would be two different things? Aren't we supposed to think God's thoughts after Him?
"Delighting"? I couldn't agree more.
Here is the definition of "delighting" from Dictionary.com:
So you're saying the purpose of life is to glorify God for our own benefit, not God's. You're saying the purpose of life is man-centered, not God-centered. Are you sure this is the position you want to take?
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Okay, you want the answer? I don't care about hearing a "thank you." I want them to acknowledge that I was gracious to them because I extended effort that I was under no obligation to do. In other words, yes, because I'm worth it. But then again, I'm known to be aloof like that, so I'm really not the best person to ask until after God is finished dealing with that arrogance. Try asking me again in heaven right after we both finish slapping our heads in awe that nobody got it quite right and that God's still gracious enough to save us.
No. God takes the same pleasure in righteousness today that he took when the world was made. (Yeah, I know this is what you're really wanting to argue, but I'm as tired of the Open Theism debate as I am of the Calvinist vs. Arminian debate.)
Because Jesus always did right. The Lord was pleased with righteousness, is pleased with righteousness, and always will be pleased with righteousness. If you wanna dig into Bentham and try to figure out hedonic calculus so you can measure that and track God's happiness on some chart (~4000 BC -
; AD 30 - ; AD 2009 - lain: ) I'm sure you can dig a ThD or PhD out of it.Scripture says it is for His name's sake (2Sam 7:21-26; Psa 79:9; Psa 109:21; Isa 45:21-24), because He loves His elect (Deut 7:8; 2Sam 7:21-26; Psa 86:13; Psa 109:21; Isa 43:1-4; Joel 2:32; Zec 10:6; Eph 2:1-22), for his honor/glory (Deut 7:8; Exo 6:6-7; 2Sam 7:21-26; Psa 50:15; Psa 106:8; Eph 2:1-22), for His purpose (Jer 15:11; Isa 37:35; Eph 2:1-22; 2Tim 1:9; Tit 2:13-14).
Because they ask different things (e.g. "What does Bill Gates want?" vs. "What is MS-DOS's purpose?").
You seem to think I'm saying, "God takes no pleasure." I'm not. So quit acting like I am. I've admitted that many times over. You just don't like that it doesn't prove Open Theism.
No, you're trying to make me out to be saying that. I told you that the purpose of life is simply to glorify God. You then asked who we're glorifying Him too (because you erroneously believe that glorifying is just praising) and who benefits. What you didn't realize is that you were committing the fallacy of plurium interrogationum; I was attempting to show that they're separate questions. I'll try to make that more clear for you in the future.
Yes but doesn't God experience more pleasure than He otherwise would if you live a godly life as opposed to an ungodly life?
Yes, our salvation is for His name's sake and because He loves His elect and for His honor and glory and for His purpose. But don't each one of those 4 things result in increasing God's pleasure?
The answer is the same for both. Bill Gates wants MS-DOS to function properly (which, by the way, will result in pleasure for Mr. Gates). MS-DOS's purpose is to function properly (which, by the way, will result in pleasure for Mr. Gates).
Looking forward to it. So let's take them one at a time:
1 - Who do we glorify God to?
2 - Who benefits when we glorify God?
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Got a measurement for me of His pleasure before you sin and after? I It's like trying to measure infinity. Even if you add +1, it's still infinity. Even if you subtract 1, it's still infinity.
No, they increased His glory. (You win. I'm going to start playing your way and just keep pushing that it's glory regardless of what anyone says.)
As answered earlier:
1) Glorifying is not just increasing esteem in the eyes of others. (Which is how it seems you understand it.)
2) It benefits us because we are then thinking God's thoughts after Him - this is the mind of Christ. It benefits us when our wills are in line with God's plan. But I doubt the people in hell seem to think the wrath of judgment is very beneficial, but who knows... they may also praise God for His justice, after all, the word says every knee shall bow and tongue confess.
What verse says God's pleasure is infinite?
And what emotion do you think God felt when His glory was increased? Apathy?
You answered who we do not glorify God to. Now please answer the flip side of that question: Who do we glorify God to?
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