toldailytopic: What is reformed theology? Generally, do you agree or disagree with re

[Nathon Detroit]

The TheologyOnline.com TOPIC OF THE DAY for June 14th, 2011 09:04 AM

toldailytopic: What is reformed theology? Generally, do you agree or disagree with reformed theology?

Take the topic above and run with it! Slice it, dice it, give us your general thoughts about it. Everyday there will be a new TOL Topic of the Day.
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[HisServant]

Quite a few flavors of Reformed Theology out there.. so it's hard to directly answer the question.

From a mile high view, I would say that it tends to be a return to the beliefs of the original reformers, like John Calvin, Martin Luther, and company. I find it to be a good thing when compared to the nebulous theology that comes out of todays seminaries.

 

[bybee]

The TheologyOnline.com TOPIC OF THE DAY for June 14th, 2011 09:04 AM

toldailytopic: What is reformed theology? Generally, do you agree or disagree with reformed theology?

Take the topic above and run with it! Slice it, dice it, give us your general thoughts about it. Everyday there will be a new TOL Topic of the Day.
If you want to make suggestions for the Topic of the Day send a Tweet to @toldailytopic or @theologyonline or send it to us via Facebook.

I wonder if all theology isn't in process of reformation?

 

[chrysostom]

you shouldn't sell indulgences
and
I agree with that

 

[Buzzword]

I wonder if all theology isn't in process of reformation?

Pretty much.

Every time anyone reads/re-reads the Scriptures, reads a commentary, reads a concordance, reads a biography of Calvin/etc., or even just engages in discussion with someone else, "theology" is being reformed, transformed, or just...formed.

Each of us posses a unique perspective on God, humanity, and the universe because we each posses unique experiences with each of them.

Thus, no two "theologies," or to paraphrase the Greek, no two sets of "words about God" are going to be the same.

We might accept similar precepts across the board, but when it comes down to it we each have a unique relationship with God, each other, and God's created universe.

 

[Sherman]

toldailytopic: What is reformed theology? Generally, do you agree or disagree with reformed theology?

The term 'reformed theology' gets its name from the reformation movement. The Reformed tradition was advanced by several theologians such as Martin Bucer, Heinrich Bullinger, Peter Martyr Vermigli, and Huldrych Zwingli- but the movement doesn't bear the names of these men. In short Reformed Theology is just a fancy name for Calvinism. The French reformer John Calvin's ideas colored it the most of any thinker. Calvin is the inventor of the TULIP or the five points of Calvinism: Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, Irresistible Grace, and Perseverance of the saints. There is also a four petal moderate version called Amyraldism as well. Much of its descriptions of God are borrowed from Plato. God is immutable, unchanging and He is outside of Time.

Calvinism has its theological difficulties.The story of God's relationship with Israel and how Israel disappointed God cannot be reconciled with the tenants of Calvinism. The God of Calvinism is like a computer or even just a rock as Chatmaggot so eloquently put it. The God of Calvinism not even free Himself. He is not capable of original thought or emotion. He is caught lockstep in a pattern, just like a programmed computer. He doesn't respond to prayer, because everything is already laid out including the heinous actions of rapists. Many of the conclusions about God are just unacceptable.

I strongly disagree with Calvinism. Here's why:

Exodus 32: 1-14 1 Now when the people saw that Moses delayed coming down from the mountain, the people gathered together to Aaron, and said to him, “Come, make us gods that shall go before us; for as for this Moses, the man who brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we do not know what has become of him.” 2 And Aaron said to them, “Break off the golden earrings which are in the ears of your wives, your sons, and your daughters, and bring them to me.” 3 So all the people broke off the golden earrings which were in their ears, and brought them to Aaron. 4 And he received the gold from their hand, and he fashioned it with an engraving tool, and made a molded calf. Then they said, “This is your god, O Israel, that brought you out of the land of Egypt!” 5 So when Aaron saw it, he built an altar before it. And Aaron made a proclamation and said, “Tomorrow is a feast to the LORD.” 6 Then they rose early on the next day, offered burnt offerings, and brought peace offerings; and the people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. 7 And the LORD said to Moses, “Go, get down! For your people whom you brought out of the land of Egypt have corrupted themselves. 8 They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them. They have made themselves a molded calf, and worshiped it and sacrificed to it, and said, ‘This is your god, O Israel, that brought you out of the land of Egypt!’” 9 And the LORD said to Moses, “I have seen this people, and indeed it is a stiff-necked people! 10 Now therefore, let Me alone, that My wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them. And I will make of you a great nation.” 11 Then Moses pleaded with the LORD his God, and said: “LORD, why does Your wrath burn hot against Your people whom You have brought out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand? 12 Why should the Egyptians speak, and say, ‘He brought them out to harm them, to kill them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth’? Turn from Your fierce wrath, and relent from this harm to Your people. 13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, Your servants, to whom You swore by Your own self, and said to them, ‘I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven; and all this land that I have spoken of I give to your descendants, and they shall inherit it forever.’” 14 So the LORD relented from the harm which He said He would do to His people.

Here Moses negotiates with God about Israel's fate. This whole event is obviously not predetermined.

Isaiah 5: 1-4 1 Now let me sing to my Well-beloved A song of my Beloved regarding His vineyard: My Well-beloved has a vineyard On a very fruitful hill. 2 He dug it up and cleared out its stones, And planted it with the choicest vine. He built a tower in its midst, And also made a winepress in it; So He expected it to bring forth good grapes, But it brought forth wild grapes. 3 “ And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah, Judge, please, between Me and My vineyard. 4 What more could have been done to My vineyard That I have not done in it? Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes, Did it bring forth wild grapes?

This is a word picture if Israel. God was expecting Israel to produce good fruit as it should. But it didn't. Israel disappointed God. The Old Testament is full of accounts of how Israel disappointed God.


My final assessment of Calvinism--It's a flower theology--A blooming idiotic theology.

 

[Nang]

See an accurate answer here.

 

[Nick M]

Pretty much.

Every time anyone reads/re-reads the Scriptures, reads a commentary, reads a concordance, reads a biography of Calvin/etc., or even just engages in discussion with someone else, "theology" is being reformed, transformed, or just...formed.

Each of us posses a unique perspective on God, humanity, and the universe because we each posses unique experiences with each of them.

Thus, no two "theologies," or to paraphrase the Greek, no two sets of "words about God" are going to be the same.

We might accept similar precepts across the board, but when it comes down to it we each have a unique relationship with God, each other, and God's created universe.

This seems reasonably accurate. That is why we should go with what the Bible tells us about God in his own words.

 

[warren clark]

The TheologyOnline.com TOPIC OF THE DAY for June 14th, 2011 09:04 AM

toldailytopic: What is reformed theology? Generally, do you agree or disagree with reformed theology?

Reform Theology is a liberal view on theology. It grows and changes gradually as new facts and evidences are discovered.
Such as many Christians no longer take the Bible word for word and many seem to be "okay" with gays being "out". Rather than the conservatives that would want sodomy laws in place and a ban regaurding marriage and the military in the constitution.

Reform theology is good. After all, we wouldn't be Americans if it didn't exist.

 

[coulter4president]

you shouldn't sell indulgences
and
I agree with that

if any Church men WERE selling them, so what?

that doesn't mean the whole Church hierarchy was corrupt, just because a few were... I have no proof that ANY were... and some who were totally innocent were accused anyway. I never belive any hostile remark made against the Church or Her people because i have learned from all my reading (and personal experience) that hate blinds people to the truth and many do not care about the truth when it comes to Catholicism..

i have read reliable books written by Catholic priests and other Catholics that indicate that the protestants just misunderstood (or worse) the thing on Indulgences..

The saints say that our prayers get ppl out of Purg sooner... and our sacrifices as well. To make a $ sacrifice and offer up a Mass for someone in Purgatory is an act of charity and i certainly hope SOMEONE does that 4 me after i die... so that i can get my sins purged faster & get into Heaven sooner...

People just do NOT understand the Church..

but they dont want to look like thye are ingornat... no, nobody likes that...

so they act like they know about it when they are far from it...

 

[coulter4president]

why would a correct theology need to be reformed???

Answer: it wouldn't

you cant improve on perfection

It is human beings who need to be reformed...

not Jesus' Church & Her Theology​

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

For starters, it is more than the five points that most assume.

Here is an excellent summary, with concluding paragraph excerpted below (emphasis mine):

How Many Points

In conclusion, we can ask again, "How many points?" Surely there are more than five. The Reformed faith includes reference to total inability, unconditional election, limited efficiency of Christ's satisfaction, irresistible grace, and perseverance of the saints, not as the sum total of the church's confession but as elements that can only be understood in the context of a larger body of teaching including the baptism of infants, justification by grace alone through faith, the necessity of a thankful obedience consequent upon our faith and justification, the identification of sacraments as means of grace, the so-called amillennial view of the end of the world. The larger number of points, including but going beyond the five of Dort, is intended, in other words, to construe theologically the entire life of the believing community. And when that larger number of points taught by the Reformed confessions is not respected, the famous five are jeopardized, indeed, dissolved —and the ongoing spiritual health of the church is placed at risk.
​

For the deep dives, anyone purporting to know Reformed theology, will be familiar with the contents of the Westminster Confession of Faith, which is an historical summary of the teachings from Scripture:

Westminster Confession of Faith

Persons wishing to interact substantively with those who profess to be Reformed, should use the WCF as their starting point versus tossing out the usual and often, uninformed, "Calvinists believe this or that".

AMR

 

[zippy2006]

For starters, it is more than the five points that most assume.

Here is an excellent summary, with concluding paragraph excerpted below (emphasis mine):

How Many Points

In conclusion, we can ask again, "How many points?" Surely there are more than five. The Reformed faith includes reference to total inability, unconditional election, limited efficiency of Christ's satisfaction, irresistible grace, and perseverance of the saints, not as the sum total of the church's confession but as elements that can only be understood in the context of a larger body of teaching including the baptism of infants, justification by grace alone through faith, the necessity of a thankful obedience consequent upon our faith and justification, the identification of sacraments as means of grace, the so-called amillennial view of the end of the world. The larger number of points, including but going beyond the five of Dort, is intended, in other words, to construe theologically the entire life of the believing community. And when that larger number of points taught by the Reformed confessions is not respected, the famous five are jeopardized, indeed, dissolved —and the ongoing spiritual health of the church is placed at risk.
​

For the deep dives, anyone purporting to know Reformed theology, will be familiar with the contents of the Westminster Confession of Faith, which is an historical summary of the teachings from Scripture:

Westminster Confession of Faith

Persons wishing to interact substantively with those who profess to be Reformed, should use the WCF as their starting point versus tossing out the usual and often, uninformed, "Calvinists believe this or that".

AMR

AMR, it seems that many would not equate Reformed theology precisely with Calvinistic theology, but rather with more of a general Protestant theology. Can you elaborate on this fact?

:e4e:

 

[warren clark]

why would a correct theology need to be reformed???

Answer: it wouldn't

you cant improve on perfection

It is human beings who need to be reformed...

not Jesus' Church & Her Theology​

whos to say it is correct?

 

[WandererInFog]

AMR, it seems that many would not equate Reformed theology precisely with Calvinistic theology, but rather with more of a general Protestant theology. Can you elaborate on this fact?

It just shows that those particular people are poorly educated theologically and don't understand what the term means.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

AMR, it seems that many would not equate Reformed theology precisely with Calvinistic theology, but rather with more of a general Protestant theology. Can you elaborate on this fact?

:e4e:

If by the "many" you mean the Catholic faithful, then you may have a point, given the RCC's position. Outside of Catholicism, however, the distinction takes on more freight.

The Reformation was not a revolution, but a reforming movement to recover apostolic Christianity within the church militant that had lost its way. By the time of the Reformation, Rome continued to argue it was “always the same,” despite clear evidence it had accumulated a host of doctrines and practices that were unknown to the ancient church, much less to the New Testament.

AMR

 

[Refractive]

toldailytopic: What is reformed theology? Generally, do you agree or disagree with reformed theology?

I got this definition from the Reformed Theology.org site. I present it for information purposes if folks aren't familiar with where the term came from:


What Is Reformed Theology?


Generally, all the churches that grew from the sixteenth-century revolt against the Roman church, can be called reformed. However, the term "Reformed" specifically designates that branch of the Reformation of the western church originally characterized by a distinctively non-Lutheran, Augustinian sacramental theology with a high ecclesiology but little regard for ecclesiatical tradition that is not traceable to the Scriptures or the earliest church. Those churches in the "Reformed tradition" are regarded as being in the line of churches that grew from the Reform in certain Swiss free cities and cantons, in non-Lutheran Germany, and in Hungary, Bohemia, and southern France in the early and mid sixteenth century.

The leaders of this branch of the church understood themselves to be "reformed" in two ways: first, they were "reformed" from what they believed to be the defective practice of Christianity promulgated by the corrupt Roman Catholicism of the day. Sometimes, this position is summed up in the phrase "Ecclesia Reformata, semper reformanda," which means "the Reformed church, always to be reformed." In the context of the sixteenth century (and the mind of the Reformers) this phrase does not mean that the church is always morphing into something new with the passage of time (a common misconstrual in our own day). Instead, this seventeenth-century motto is consistent with the Reformers' idea that they were not innovating, but "turning again" to the form of the church and belief originated by Jesus Christ, lived out by the first disciples and early church, and born witness to in the writings of the Old and New Testaments shorn of later additions.

Second, as implied above, Reformed means rejecting the idea that tradition can provide a sufficient form for matters of belief. Instead, the Reformers insisted that "the Word of God" was the only ultimate source of appeal in matters of faith, and that all other sources of knowledge, including a church's tradition, had to appeal to this central source.

 

[zippy2006]

If by the "many" you mean the Catholic faithful, then you may have a point, given the RCC's position. Outside of Catholicism, however, the distinction takes on more freight.

Catholicism? I was more referring to the large number of responses that didn't seem to make the distinction as well as a number of sites I found claiming to be Reformed but not Calvinistic. :idunno:

But I think Refractive's post cleared up the usage for me, thanks :e4e:

The Reformation was not a revolution, but a reforming movement to recover apostolic Christianity within the church militant that had lost its way. By the time of the Reformation, Rome continued to argue it was “always the same,” despite clear evidence it had accumulated a host of doctrines and practices that were unknown to the ancient church, much less to the New Testament.

AMR

Have you read much of Newman?

 

[zippy2006]

It just shows that those particular people are poorly educated theologically and don't understand what the term means.

Aye, I suppose you're right. Their large number gave me a doubt :noid:

 

[Lon]

Reform Theology is a liberal view on theology. It grows and changes gradually as new facts and evidences are discovered.
Such as many Christians no longer take the Bible word for word and many seem to be "okay" with gays being "out". Rather than the conservatives that would want sodomy laws in place and a ban regaurding marriage and the military in the constitution.

Reform theology is good. After all, we wouldn't be Americans if it didn't exist.

Wrong name. You are thinking of Emergent Theology.
They both have E's and R's so I can see why you'd be confused?