toldailytopic: What do you suppose God thinks of the Catholic Church?

[Cruciform]

You removed the scripture from my quote.

Your prooftexts are entirely superfluous---unless your preferences and opinions about the supposed meaning of the Bible carry some sort of inherent authority we should all know about...?

Isn't that what you do every day?

...ignore your preferences and opinions? Absolutely. (See answer just above.)



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[Sum1sGruj]

Again: If the Catholic Church is indeed Christ's historic Church, then she IS superior to all other claimants to that status, and all men are obligated before God to join themselves to that true historic Church.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

Says who?
Just because the Church has picked itself up from it's bootstraps does not mean it is the only way to God.

It was formed in the 1st century AD, and not too long later, it helped induce and prolonged the Dark Ages. The Church didn't allow people to have Bibles. They tortured people. They resorted to blaming demons for their unending greed.

What are these things? Is it Satan trying to disrupt the Church, or is it God showing them that they were in error?
Even today, the Church faces scrutiny and ridicule all the time. Is it a sign that it isn't the right way, or is it Satan?

How does the Bible go about it? Who exactly is the authority here.. you know, I don't mean to bash Catholicism, but when a notion begs the differ on the object of Protestantism, these things need to be asked.

 

[Cruciform]

Says who?

Jesus Christ (Mt. 16:18; cf. 1 Tim. 3:15).

Just because the Church has picked itself up from it's bootstraps does not mean it is the only way to God.

I didn't say that it was the "only" way to God, rather that it is a "superior" way.

It was formed in the 1st century AD...

Yes---by the Lord Jesus Christ himself.

...and not too long later, it helped induce and prolonged the Dark Ages.

Clearly, you haven't studied medieval history. Medieval historians don't even use the phrase "Dark Ages" any more. Indeed, it was the Catholic Church which sustained western culture during the Middle Ages, as anyone who is at all familiar with the history of the period is well aware.

Also, it should be noted that the claim that Christ's Church somehow fell into formal theological error or apostasy after the apostles is an ancient Christian heresy known as Ecclesial Deism.

The Church didn't allow people to have Bibles.

Now you appear to merely be reciting what you've heard rather than actual historical fact. Your comment is simply false.

They tortured people.

Again, much more self-education is called for on your part:

Inquisition
The Inquisition
The Truth About the Spanish Inquisition
The Inquisitions of History: The Mythology & the Reality​

What are these things? Is it Satan trying to disrupt the Church, or is it God showing them that they were in error? Even today, the Church faces scrutiny and ridicule all the time. Is it a sign that it isn't the right way, or is it Satan?

It is exactly what Christ said it would be: tares and wheat growing together until the end of time. The Church is made up of individuals who still commit personal sins, just as it was when the apostles themselves were in charge.

How does the Bible go about it? Who exactly is the authority here.. you know, I don't mean to bash Catholicism, but when a notion begs the differ on the object of Protestantism, these things need to be asked.

The doctrinal authority for believers is what it's always been: the authoritative teachings of Christ's historic Catholic Church (Mt. 16:18-19; 28:18-20; Lk. 10:16; 22:32; Jn. 21:15-17; Ac. 16:4; 1 Cor. 12:28; 2 Cor. 5:20; Eph. 1:22-23; 3:10; 1 Tim. 3:15; Titus 2:15; Heb. 13:17; 2 Pet. 1:19-21; 1 John 4:6).



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[serpentdove]

"...[Y]our preferences and opinions..."

:yawn: Truth is truth independent from me (Ac 5:29, Mt 15:9).

"[C]arry some sort of inherent authority we should all know about...?"

Your church does not hold some special knowledge :idea: that others cannot attain (Mt 15:9, Ga 1:6-8, Eph 4:14). linger: Gnostics taught this. :dizzy:

 

[Cruciform]

Truth is truth independent from me.

Already answered (Post #99). :yawn:

Your church does not hold some special knowledge that others cannot attain...

Never said it did. And if you happen to accidentally come up with some of the same authoritative truths as those taught by Christ's historic Church, that's very good for you. However, it's much easier and quicker simply to affirm the Church's teachings to begin with, as believers always have.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[Sum1sGruj]

Jesus Christ (Mt. 16:18; cf. 1 Tim. 3:15).


I didn't say that it was the "only" way to God, rather that it is a "superior" way.


Yes---by the Lord Jesus Christ himself.


Clearly, you haven't studied medieval history. Medieval historians don't even use the phrase "Dark Ages" any more. Indeed, it was the Catholic Church which sustained western culture during the Middle Ages, as anyone who is at all familiar with the history of the period is well aware.

Also, it should be noted that the claim that Christ's Church somehow fell into formal theological error or apostasy after the apostles is an ancient Christian heresy known as Ecclesial Deism.


Now you appear to merely be reciting what you've heard rather than actual historical fact. Your comment is simply false.


Again, much more self-education is called for on your part:

Inquisition
The Inquisition
The Truth About the Spanish Inquisition
The Inquisitions of History: The Mythology & the Reality​

It is exactly what Christ said it would be: tares and wheat growing together until the end of time. The Church is made up of individuals who still commit personal sins, just as it was when the apostles themselves were in charge.


The doctrinal authority for believers is what it's always been: the authoritative teachings of Christ's historic Catholic Church (Mt. 16:18-19; 28:18-20; Lk. 10:16; 22:32; Jn. 21:15-17; Ac. 16:4; 1 Cor. 12:28; 2 Cor. 5:20; Eph. 1:22-23; 3:10; 1 Tim. 3:15; Titus 2:15; Heb. 13:17; 2 Pet. 1:19-21; 1 John 4:6).



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

You do realize how much Scripture there is that easily makes the Catholic ideology seem a favorable decree rather then superior doctrine, right?

People not being allowed to have Bibles is not false either, at least not to an extent. The Church, as high as it holds itself, believed they were the only ones worthy of deciphering and being it's authority. Therefore, it wasn't common for people to have Bibles, and the Church did not condone the spreading of them. (which by the way, anyone who read it and disagreed with them., do the math) This would be one of the reasons in which torture and punishment was induced. And moreover, the church did prolong the Dark Ages. The Church was gaining power, and their greed oppressed as all greed does.

You are fighting against a prohibitively strong tide here. Are you really going to deny these things that history tells, and use little tidbits of Scripture without even considering the rest to justify the Church as being superior?
The fact that this plagued the very people in authority is a good enough indication for to say that Catholicism is a way, but is not superior in any way.

 

[Cruciform]

You do realize how much Scripture there is that easily makes the Catholic ideology seem a favorable decree rather then superior doctrine, right?

You do realize that the Bible must be interpreted by human beings, and that it makes far more sense to follow the authoritative interpretations and teachings of Christ's own historic Church than to heed the mere preferences and opinions of individual laymen, right?

People not being allowed to have Bibles is not false either, at least not to an extent.

I've already answered this point in my previous post. Have you read the article I linked to there?

Therefore, it wasn't common for people to have Bibles...

It was uncommon for two basic reasons:

[1] The vast majority of people during the Middle Ages were illiterate, and so couldn't have read a Bible even if they'd had one.
[2] The vast majority of people during the Middle Ages were poor, and so couldn't have afforded a Bible (which was very expensive to produce) even if they had wanted one.​

...and the Church did not condone the spreading of them.

The Church did not permit the making and distributing of Bibles and Testaments which were poorly translated and which often contained decidedly anti-Catholic marginal notes. Makes sense, given that the Bible is a Catholic book.

And moreover, the church did prolong the Dark Ages.

Already answered---and refuted---in my previous post.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[fool]

Does anyone else find it tragic that we as an intelligent, space faring species, could find nothing better to do than re-make Foot Loose?

 

[genuineoriginal]

First, the Catholic Church is not a "sect," but is the original Church founded by Christ, of which all other Christian groups are but sects.

The first Christian denomination began as a sect. Acts 28:22

Second, your statement is simply a Straw Man Fallacy, since this in no way accurately describes the Catholic Church.

It describes it well enough.

Third---just out of curiosity---how, precisely, do you imagine that "the laity are kept uninformed by the clergy" in the Catholic Church?

You mentioned how yourself, right here:

The historic Catholic Church, however, possesses an infallible Magisterium to guide and teach the faithful.

The "Magisterium" keeps the laity uninformed through their guidance and teaching.

 

[Krsto]

Sometimes I wonder if God created the Catholic Church for those who need someone to tell them what to believe.

 

[Sum1sGruj]

You do realize that the Bible must be interpreted by human beings, and that it makes far more sense to follow the authoritative interpretations and teachings of Christ's own historic Church than to heed the mere preferences and opinions of individual laymen, right?

What is special about the Church that it somehow interprets better then laymen? Are they endowed with some special sense of the Bible that doesn't avail others?

'Christ's own historic Church' is poetry.

They couldn't afford a Bible and they were illiterate, and the Church never took advantage of that in any way, they never tortured anyone and those torture devices are just a big conspiracy, they never used fear as a cheaper means to control rather then money and they didn't keep that money for there own agendas.

You believe these things?

And how did they not prolong the Dark Ages? I see so much argument and they are just empty and vain. It was a time of religious struggle, and the Church was no more innocent then anything else that was going on despite being a supreme authority. In fact, they seemed to mightily enjoy themselves so much to the extent where they started blaming demons for it. I mean, when church leaders cannot even take responsibility because their acts are just so ungodly, that is when things happen., like schisms.
That just tells enough right there.

The Church has vanity written all over it. I see no reason to assume it is mightier then any other branch.

 

[eameece]

At the risk of stating the obvious, God has little to do with the Catholic Church or Jesus, except that the catholic church (which is just one institution and religion among many) asks people to worship God (among other things it does nice and nasty), and Jesus was an example and embodiment of God awareness.

 

[Sheila B]

I don't know a lot about Catholicism, but I do know one thing: they believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Since that is what we must believe in order to be saved, why does everyone worry about the other stuff?

The heart yearns to be united and to know all it can about it's eternal home: the Sacred Heart of Jesus! That is why the yen to grow in faith and love and understanding and knowledge and true worship. . .

 

[Sheila B]

Sometimes I wonder if God created the Catholic Church for those who need someone to tell them what to believe.

rather, for those who need the sacraments. . . myself being first in need

 

[Sheila B]

The Church, as high as it holds itself,

here is the error. . . it is Christ Himself who stands so tall that His Head is Heaven itself! We are merely His Body and have no choice but to be held high. It is surely not sinful man that could do such a great thing as hold anything high for very long!!!!!!!

 

[HisServant]

I would say that any institution (whether protestant or catholic) that does not hold their leaders to the biblical standard (being of good reputation both inside and outside of the church) is going to have some explaining to do when they stand face to face with God.

The Roman Catholic church has had this type of crisis year after year after year and the inertia caused by their clinging to traditions make it very hard for its leaders to police themselves. (And then you have the Italian management style.. old boys club issues that exist both inside and outside the church in Italy.. I used to work as CTO of Agusta Aerospace so I have seen it first hand)

On the flip side, a sizable majority of Protestants have one man leadership shows that cause the same problem.

I have always viewed that clergy positions are only temporary and the clergy should be humble enough to realize that when they do certain things they have basically taken themselves out of leadership of the church... But since todays church leaders spend so much time in seminary, etc.. they are totally unprepared to do anything else from a living.. so they hang onto their clergy role to the detriment of the church.

 

[serpentdove]

"...t's much easier and quicker simply to affirm the Church's teachings to begin..."

No one would ever accuse you of doing the hard work of Bible study (Ac 17:11). oly: Your biblical illiteracy is shameful ( Mt 7:23). linger: You will believe the lie (2 Thess 2:11). :burnlib:

"2:11 strong delusion. People who prefer to love sin and lies rather than gospel truth will receive severe, divine recompense, as do all sinners. God Himself will send judgment that insures their fate in the form of a deluding influence so that they continue to believe what is false. They accept evil as good and a lie as the truth. Thus does God use Satan and Antichrist as His instruments of judgment (cf. 1 Kin. 22:19–23)." MacArthur, John Jr: The MacArthur Study Bible. electronic ed. Nashville : Word Pub., 1997, c1997, S. 2 Th 2:11

 

[serpentdove]

"You do realize that the Bible must be interpreted by human beings..."

You are a human being. lain: God does not ask you to violate wisdom. Two banquets are set. Where will you choose to sit? Fear God (Prov. 1:7) oly: not men (Isa 51:12). linger:

See:

Pr 9:1-18 Way of Wisdom vs Way of Folly; J. Vernon McGee, John MacArthur

 

[chrysostom]

He would change it
if
He wasn't okay with it

it is the oldest and largest institution we have

 

[HisServant]

He would change it
if
He wasn't okay with it

it is the oldest and largest institution we have

Based on that logic.. if you were born in India, you would be a Buddist.. or if you were born in Japan you would be Shinto.