toldailytopic: What do you suppose God thinks of the Catholic Church?

[Cruciform]

Tradition really is the worst enemy of the Catholic Church.

How do you figure? Especially since the apostles instructed believers to "hold to the traditions which you were taught by us [apostles], either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thess. 2:15; cf. 1 Cor. 11:2). Clearly, not all tradition is bad. Indeed, the teaching Tradition of the apostles is referred to in the New Testament as "the word of God."



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[Cruciform]

"Every verse of the Bible means exactly what the author intended it to mean..."

...but not what serpent claims it means. :nono:



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[serpentdove]

"...urely you can find a factual website..."

Where have they [pro-gospel.org] misrepresented Catholicism? each: And don't call me Shirley.

"If I were dead set against something, it would not be because someone told me that I should be, but because I have looked at the facts, and logically reached a conclusion from a balanced and unbiased viewpoint."

As you said: "I don't know a lot about Catholicism...". Ask Cruciform if he can give you biblical support for any of these false teachings. When you hear the cricket sounds, let's talk again.

 

[Cruciform]

Ask Cruciform is he can give you biblical support for any of these false teachings. When you hear the cricket sounds, let's talk again.

What "cricket sounds"? serpent has been answered on this point on numerous occasions. He just chooses to pretend otherwise. One more time:

Inventions by the Catholic Church?
Catholic "Inventions"
More Catholic "Inventions"
A CASE STUDY IN CATHOLIC BASHING
"Looks Like I Need Elocution Lessons"​

Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[Breathe]

Where have they [pro-gospel.org] misrepresented Catholicism? each: And don't call me Shirley.

Eh, all I know is what I read, and it sounds biased to me. But then, that is jmo. Shirley.

As you said: "I don't know a lot about Catholicism...". Ask Cruciform is he can give you biblical support for any of these false teachings. When you hear the cricket sounds, let's talk again.

I don't know much about it at all. But when the main tenet of a faith is the same as my own, I find little to nitpick. The desert is waaaaay less important than the main course.

 

[serpentdove]

[Mike Gendron, Roman Catholic over 30 years] "[H]e had no genuine understanding of Catholic doctrine or practice to begin with..."

Tell us where he is wrong. each:

"Roman Catholics declare that their church is the one true church founded upon Peter 2000 years ago. They say their bishops are successors of the apostles, yet none of them meet the biblical requirements (Acts 1:21-22). From the Word of God, we know that the true church is made up of all who were:

• chosen by the Father (2 Thes. 2:13),
• sanctified by the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 6:11),
• redeemed by the Son (Gal. 3:13) and
• purified by His blood (1 John 1:7)

This church submits to Christ as its Head and His Word as the authority (Col. 1:18; Luke 4:32). Each member of this church is already enrolled in heaven because they have been sealed with the Holy Spirit who is a deposit guaranteeing their eternal inheritance (Heb. 12:23; Eph. 1:13-14). They worship God in Spirit and Truth, pray to God alone and die with the assurance of being in the presence of their Savior.

The Roman Catholic Church is made up of all who:

• were baptized by a priest (CCC, para. 818)
• were sanctified by the sacrament of water baptism (CCC, 2813).
• are being redeemed by the Sacrifice of the Mass (CCC, 1405) and are
• purified by purgatory (CCC, 1472).

The Roman Catholic Church can indeed trace its roots to the church Christ established. However, as it departed from the Word of God and began following traditions of men, it became more and more corrupt. It now submits to its head, the pope, who stole the title "Head of the Church" from Jesus. Rome condemns with anathema anyone who does not embrace the "infallible dogmas" of the church. None of the members of this church are promised eternal life in heaven. They submit to what they believe to be three equal authorities: the Magisterium of Bishops, Tradition and Scripture. Catholics worship the Eucharist, pray to Mary and the Saints and die with a hope of making it to the purging fire of an unbiblical purgatory after they die. These are two different churches on two different paths to two different destinies. One is apostolic, the other is apostate. One contends for the faith, the other has departed from the faith (1 Tim. 4:1)." Proclaiming the Gospel Ministries Newsletter Vol 20 No. 3

Also see:

Vid. Catholicism vs Christianity by Mike Gendron

 

[Sum1sGruj]

How do you figure? Especially since the apostles instructed believers to "hold to the traditions which you were taught by us [apostles], either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thess. 2:15; cf. 1 Cor. 11:2). Clearly, not all tradition is bad. Indeed, the teaching Tradition of the apostles is referred to in the New Testament as "the word of God."



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

Not all tradition is bad, but not all tradition is necessary either. If that were the case, every Protestant is damned.

The Catholic church seems to be more focused on those things rather then others and it is a mixture of both stubbornness and being under scrutiny.

 

[serpentdove]

"What "cricket sounds"? serpent has been answered on this point on numerous occasions. He just chooses not to remember..."

:yawn: Non causae ut causae (claiming victory despite defeat)

 

[Cruciform]

Tell us where he is wrong.

He's wrong at the same places where you're wrong. Take your pick.

Here, I'll simply stop at the first error I come to...

"Roman Catholics declare that their church is the one true church founded upon Peter 2000 years ago. They say their bishops are successors of the apostles, yet none of them meet the biblical requirements" (Acts 1:21-22)...

Oops! Here Gendron wrongly assumes that the doctrine of Apostolic Succession means that the bishops are apostles, which is entirely incorrect. The bishops are not themselves apostles, and the Church has never taught that they were. If Gendron actually understood this doctrine, he could not possibly have made such a statement. So, then, your claim that "he know what he's talking about" is just as misrepresentative of Gendron himself as his claims about Catholic doctrine are misrepresetative of the Church's actual teaching. So much for your "expert" anti-Catholic source.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[Cruciform]

Non causae ut causae (claiming victory despite defeat)

Already answered (Post #84). :yawn:



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[Cruciform]

Not all tradition is bad, but not all tradition is necessary either. If that were the case, every Protestant is damned. The Catholic church seems to be more focused on those things rather then others and it is a mixture of both stubbornness and being under scrutiny.

The central question is whether or not the Catholic Church is in fact that historical Church founded by Jesus Christ himself in 33 A.D. If it is---and both divine revelation and the testimony of history overwhelmingly bear this out---then any contrary feelings or impressions we might have about it are entirely irrelevant.

How Old Is Your Church?​

Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[serpentdove]

"Oops! Here Gendron wrongly assumes that the doctrine of Apostolic Succession means that the bishops are apostles, which is entirely incorrect..."

The article states: "They say their bishops are successors of the apostles..." Eph 4:14. Proclaiming the Gospel Ministries Newsletter Vol 20 No. 3

"The doctrine of apostolic succession is the belief that the 12 apostles passed on their authority to successors, who then passed the apostolic authority on to their successors, continuing throughout the centuries, even unto today. The Roman Catholic Church sees Peter as the leader of the apostles, with the greatest authority, and therefore his successors carry on the greatest authority. The Roman Catholic Church combines this belief with the concept that Peter later became the first bishop of Rome, and that the Roman bishops that followed Peter were accepted by the early church as the central authority among all of the churches. Apostolic succession, combined with Peter’s supremacy among the apostles, results in the Roman bishop being the supreme authority of the Catholic Church – the Pope.

However, nowhere in Scripture did Jesus, the apostles, or any other New Testament writer set forth the idea of “apostolic succession.” Further, neither is Peter presented as “supreme” over the other apostles..." Full text: Is apostolic succession biblical? Was the authority of the Apostles passed on to their successors?

Also see:

What is the Apostolic Church and what do Apostolics believe? What was the origin of Apostolicism?

Who were the early church fathers? What were the beliefs and practices of the early Christian church fathers?

 

[Sum1sGruj]

The central question is whether or not the Catholic Church is in fact that historical Church founded by Jesus Christ himself in 33 A.D. If it is---and both divine revelation and the testimony of history overwhelmingly bear this out---then any contrary feelings or impressions we might have about it are entirely irrelevant.

How Old Is Your Church?​

Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

To be frank, I believe that the Catholic Doctrine undermines the principles of being a Christian. I do not believe Jesus exclusively charged men to forgive others, he rather just gave that charge to his disciples to jump start everything. The concept completely undermines the whole of the Bible, and where a statement is stated, it needs to be in contrast to the rest of Scripture.
I do not have anything against Catholicism, but it needs not try to assume superiority.

 

[Cruciform]

The article states: "They say their bishops are successors of the apostles..."

Yes, and then Gedron goes on to erroneously apply Ac. 1:21-22 to the issue of Apostolic Succession, to which it is in no way related. My statements therefore stand as posted. Gedron is categorically incorrect, and has misrepresented Catholic teaching.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[Cruciform]

To be frank, I believe that the Catholic Doctrine undermines the principles of being a Christian. I do not believe Jesus exclusively charged men to forgive others, he rather just gave that charge to his disciples to jump start everything. The concept completely undermines the whole of the Bible, and where a statement is stated, it needs to be in contrast to the rest of Scripture. I do not have anything against Catholicism, but it needs not try to assume superiority.

Again: If the Catholic Church is indeed Christ's historic Church, then she IS superior to all other claimants to that status, and all men are obligated before God to join themselves to that true historic Church.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[serpentdove]

If the Catholic Church is indeed Christ's historic Church, then she is superior to all other claimants to that status...

Your claim is a false.

"...[L]et’s examine the Roman Catholic claim that it is the “first church.” Nowhere in the New Testament will you find the “one true church” doing any of the following: praying to Mary, praying to the saints, venerating Mary, submitting to a pope, having a select priesthood, baptizing an infant, observing the ordinances of baptism and the Lord’s Supper as sacraments, or passing on apostolic authority to successors of the apostles. All of these are core elements of the Roman Catholic faith. If most of the core elements of the Roman Catholic Church were not practiced by the New Testament Church (the first church and one true church), how then can the Roman Catholic Church be the first church?" Full text: What was the first / original church? Is the original / first church the true church? Is the church that is the oldest necessarily the most right ...

 

[serpentdove]

...but not what serpent claims it means.

:yawn: Truth is truth independent from me (Ac 5:29, Mt 15:9).

 

[Cruciform]

Your claim is a false.

• Your claim is false.
• Already answered (Post #91).
• Gendron is still wrong. (Just sayin'.)

Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[Cruciform]

Truth is truth independent from me.

Excellent. Then we can simply go on ignoring your personal preferences and theological opinions. :thumb:



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[serpentdove]

Truth is truth independent from me.

You removed the scripture from my quote. It is what you do (Eph 4:14). :Shimei: Truth is truth independent from me (Ac 5:29, Mt 15:9).

"...Then we can simply go on ignoring your personal preferences and theological opinions..."

Isn't that what you do every day? Even in your rebellion :reals: you prove that the Bible is true (Isa 53:1; Ro 10:15,16). oly: