toldailytopic: What about abortion in cases of rape?

Alate_One

Well-known member
Then the result is terminated naturally. It is not a matter of equating the fertilized egg with a baby, it is more an issue of taking the natural potentialities of the fertilized egg into question when dealing with this particular moral issue. What I reacted to was the statement that it is "just a cluster of cells". We are talking about the start of a process which, if unhindered by natural causes, will develop into a human fetus.
Indeed, but you are dealing with potentialities which are different (in terms of likelihood of success) when you're looking at a zygote vs. an 8 week old fetus vs. a 4 month old fetus. Then there is the actual status of each stage rather than just a "potentiality". I think it only makes sense to treat the stages differently from a moral perspective and that has been the position of most industrialized societies in general.

It isn't black and white and clean, but drawing a line at a zygote leads to all kinds of silliness, which is nearly as bad as drawing the line at birth.
 

alwight

New member
The question is whether it is appropriate to destroy this developing human organism for the sake of convenience and the prevention of negative feelings (they are of course very serious in the case of rape) because the development is at an early stage? Not saying it is an easy question, it is probably one of the toughest moral dilemmas out there. However, it should not be answered based on the error of saying that a zygote is "just a cluster of cells" that are similar to any cluster of cells, because it is not.
As you rightly say it's not an easy question which shouldn't require a dogmatic answer imo. I think we can agree that a zygote is potentially a person but afaic not actually a person. No more than many such early embryos that get discarded quite naturally all the time. If every newly fertilised egg needs to be regarded as a person then surely an awful tragedy is constantly going on all around us since so many fail naturally for one reason or another.
 

Lon

Well-known member
If I were violently abducted to awaken with my blood attached to a small child whose life depended on me for 9 months until his/her country could get a dialysis machine, I'd stay connected even if my abduction were a nightmare. It may or may not be true that the law of the land would allow me to disconnect but I don't believe I could live knowing I allowed another human being to die simply because of inconvenience of being connected and, at times, uncomfortable.

Yes, I'd always remember the violence beforehand, no, I'd never associate it negatively with that child.
 

PureX

Well-known member
Then the result is terminated naturally. It is not a matter of equating the fertilized egg with a baby, it is more an issue of taking the natural potentialities of the fertilized egg into question when dealing with this particular moral issue. What I reacted to was the statement that it is "just a cluster of cells". We are talking about the start of a process which, if unhindered by natural causes, will develop into a human fetus.
The problem is that we have asked the courts to decide that which it is not possible at this time for we humans to determine: exactly when a human being becomes a human being. They did their best, but the fact is that no one knows the answer.

So the courts did what they could do with the information that they had, and determined that when a developing human CAN feasibly survive outside the mother's body, it will come under the protection of the government as a new and separate human being. Until that time, it is completely dependent upon the mother's body and can only survive as a biological extension of the mother. And so as such, the mother has priority of decision over it's continued existence.

Some of us may not like this decision, but it is a reasonable decision for the courts to make given the lack of determining information.
You cannot simply portray pro-life people as someone who wants to restrict the freedom of women. That is a strawman, they think the right to live applies to the developing fetus, a right they think trumps a woman's choice to end her pregnancy. That is something you need to recognize even if you personally disagree with it.
It doesn't really matter what they THINK they're doing. What they ARE doing is telling other human beings that because they think a certain way, everyone else has to comply with their thinking. And because we ignored their demands, many of them are now actively seeking to subvert and destroy the basic methods and functions of our government to get their way.

There's no point in sugar-coating this. Because once these folks got started down this "my way or bust" highway, they've begun to broaden their demands to include ruling over the sex lives of others, as well as over women's pregnancies. Then they want to dictate what our kids can and can't learn in our schools. Once we open the door to this sort of thing, there'll be no end to it. And the pathway of oppression leads nowhere but into an abyss.
 

PureX

Well-known member
If I were violently abducted to awaken with my blood attached to a small child whose life depended on me for 9 months until his/her country could get a dialysis machine, I'd stay connected even if my abduction were a nightmare. It may or may not be true that the law of the land would allow me to disconnect but I don't believe I could live knowing I allowed another human being to die simply because of inconvenience of being connected and, at times, uncomfortable.

Yes, I'd always remember the violence beforehand, no, I'd never associate it negatively with that child.
I can appreciate that. But what does your decision have to do with me, or anyone else? Should we have to abide by your decisions? Why? Most Christians believe that God gave them ten commandments. Yet even God does not enforce these commands. We are free to make our own decisions before God, as to whether we will obey them or not.

So if even God has chosen to respect our freedom to decide for ourselves how we will live, why do so many Christians think they have the right to usurp that God-given freedom? Do they know more than God about how human beings should be allowed to live?
 

Stripe

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If the woman wants to carry the child, fantastic. I am all for forgiveness,
Not murdering your child is forgiving the rapist? Are you insane?

There's also the concept of allowing the rapist's seed to continue. If there's a genetic component to why the rapist felt it was okay to rape, that tendency could manifest in the offspring or the child's offspring.
Evolutionism turns people into retards.

Seriously, this is the most insane notion you've ever put forward.

It is living human cells with potential for forming a new individual. It is not directly equivalent to a baby, however.
The thread is about whether rape is an acceptable reason to murder a baby. If you think a certain method is not murdering a baby, then you're off topic.

I don't understand why so many Christians feel they have to assume that there's immediate and total equivalence of a ball of 100 undifferentiated cells with a living breathing child that has emotions and can feel pain. The zygote to blatocyst stage is not valueless, but it's not a child either. You want things in black and white. Biology is not black and white. Deal with it.
Because you say so? No. Your opinion is of zero value when it comes to when personhood begins. Deal with it.

I'm not off topic or jumping ahead. The question is what about abortion in the case of rape. I'm sorry you don't like the way I'm framing the real issues.
You do not think certain methods kill a baby. People are opposed to abortion because it kills a baby. You either need to discuss the OP or find your own thread to :troll:

I say it's not murder in any case if we're talking about the morning after pill only. Defining a group of undifferentiated cells as a person diminishes real living and breathing people.
Only because you think it's OK to kill people who are below a certain size.
 

Selaphiel

Well-known member
PureX said:
It doesn't really matter what they THINK they're doing. What they ARE doing is telling other human beings that because they think a certain way, everyone else has to comply with their thinking. And because we ignored their demands, many of them are now actively seeking to subvert and destroy the basic methods and functions of our government to get their way.

And that is their right in a democratic society. The pro-life movement has every bit as much rights to push for a policy change on the matter of abortion just as the opposition has to oppose it. They have no less right to do that than those who push for changing the laws regarding same sex marriages.
You are attaching malice to opinions that differ from your own, this is pretty much the same as the pro-lifers who portray the women who have had abortions as something that resembles baby eating demons.
Granted they should use the democratic process, not any other way.

There's no point in sugar-coating this. Because once these folks got started down this "my way or bust" highway, they've begun to broaden their demands to include ruling over the sex lives of others, as well as over women's pregnancies. Then they want to dictate what our kids can and can't learn in our schools. Once we open the door to this sort of thing, there'll be no end to it. And the pathway of oppression leads nowhere but into an abyss.

This is pretty much the informal fallacy known as the "slippery slope" fallacy. This is the exact same form of argument often used by conservatives to oppose homosexual marriage: "If these guys get what they want, soon pedophilia and zoophilia will be legalized and people will want to marry their dog". Discuss the issue at hand, don't project a lot other opinions onto people. I'm highly skeptical of abortion, but I am pro science and not against the secular legalization of gay marriage. I pretty much disagree with conservative politics on every issue except abortion.
 

Alate_One

Well-known member
Not murdering your child is forgiving the rapist? Are you insane?
In a sense. You're forgiving him enough to bear his child.

Evolutionism turns people into retards.

Seriously, this is the most insane notion you've ever put forward.
I'm not talking evolution I'm talking simple genetics. Plus the Bible talks about seed being cut off and sins being visited upon the descendants. Why you assume everything is evolution is beyond me.

The thread is about whether rape is an acceptable reason to murder a baby. If you think a certain method is not murdering a baby, then you're off topic.
No, you guys think anything that stops a zygote from implanting is a "killing a baby" and abortion. We should establish what is defined as abortion before arguing cases when it is okay.

Is abortion after 9 weeks of pregnancy in the case of rape okay? Maybe, especially if you tried other methods and failed or didn't know etc.

Because you say so? No. Your opinion is of zero value when it comes to when personhood begins. Deal with it.
And yours is more valuable than mine why? Because you said so? Talk about zero value. Everything you say is that.

Only because you think it's OK to kill people who are below a certain size.
This is not a person.

Zygote-image.jpg


It's not just size, it's qualitative differences.

This is a tiny person:
6-weeks.jpg
 

PureX

Well-known member
And that is their right in a democratic society.
Do we as individuals have the right to destroy our own societies from within because they won't comply with our moral demands? Is it a right to oppress or imprison other human beings because they won't follow our moral imperatives? Can't you see what we become when we presume this right for ourselves?
The pro-life movement has every bit as much rights to push for a policy change on the matter of abortion just as the opposition has to oppose it. They have no less right to do that than those who push for changing the laws regarding same sex marriages.
Of course they do. But "pushing for a policy" shouldn't include stacking the courts and legislatures with zealots and panderers in a deliberate effort to pervert and circumvent the democratic process. And this has now become a common tactic.
You are attaching malice to opinions that differ from your own, ...
No, I am attaching malice to the complete disregard and disrespect for the rights and opinions of our fellow human beings via the blind insistence on our own presumed superior righteousness.
Granted they should use the democratic process, not any other way.
Yes, it's important. Because when people are willing to pervert the system in the cause of their own self-righteousness they lose the moral high ground and become just another would-be tyrant/oppressor.
This is pretty much the informal fallacy known as the "slippery slope" fallacy.
My "slippery slope" analogy is not a fallacy. It's just an analogy. In this case, it's an analogy for people who want power and control getting a little bit of it, and then wanting more and more. It's a valid analogy, and a valid fear.
 

Selaphiel

Well-known member
PureX said:
Do we as individuals have the right to destroy our own societies from within because they won't comply with our moral demands? Is it a right to oppress or imprison other human beings because they won't follow our moral imperatives? Can't you see what we become when we presume this right for ourselves?

You use a lot of loaded language here. It is not oppression if the cause is moral, and the debate is about whether it is or not. And yes, it is right to imprison people who fails to meet the moral imperatives of the law. You seem to assume that the current state of affairs is some kind of ideological neutral position with no presuppositions whatsoever while those who wishes to change it are the only ones that are motivated by ideology.
The heart of this issue is the question of whether it is moral or immoral to committ abortions, that is a valid moral question. The answer to that question is connected to a whole lot of other philosophical questions.

Of course they do. But "pushing for a policy" shouldn't include stacking the courts and legislatures with zealots and panderers in a deliberate effort to pervert and circumvent the democratic process. And this has now become a common tactic.

I'm not an American, so I'm no expert on how the political system works. But it is my impression that the judges of the supreme court are elected by the president with approval of the senate. If that is indeed the case, I do not see how appointing judges with a certain moral leaning is against the democratic process. I assume the right to abortion was appointed by the supreme court, which consisted of a certain set of judges with certain views. I do not see how you can argue that a morally conservative judge has any less right to be a member of the supreme court without presupposing the validity of your own view. It is no more stacking the courts than when the more liberal parties appoints more liberal judges. Seems to me that the appointment of judges to the supreme court is an essential part of the democratic rule of the country. Whether that is a good system is another question.

No, I am attaching malice to the complete disregard and disrespect for the rights and opinions of our fellow human beings via the blind insistence on our own presumed superior righteousness.

Of course, those who disagree with you would say that about your opinion.

My "slippery slope" analogy is not a fallacy. It's just an analogy. In this case, it's an analogy for people who want power and control getting a little bit of it, and then wanting more and more. It's a valid analogy, and a valid fear.

Don't see how it is an analogy

Because once these folks got started down this "my way or bust" highway, they've begun to broaden their demands to include ruling over the sex lives of others, as well as over women's pregnancies. Then they want to dictate what our kids can and can't learn in our schools. Once we open the door to this sort of thing, there'll be no end to it.

That is pretty much a text book example of that particular informal fallacy.

It may be a fear, it is however not a valid argument against the pro-life position simply because you are attaching lots of opinions and points of view to a cause that does not necessarily contain them. That person A shares opinion with person B on a particular issue does not necessarily mean that person A shares person B's view on another issue.
 

Sherman

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The TheologyOnline.com TOPIC OF THE DAY for August 31st, 2012 08:28 AM


toldailytopic: What about abortion in cases of rape?

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I just found this thread and I am gonna give my take on it even though a really beautiful post has already been made on this subject.

Should we punish a child for the sins of his father? That is what aborting a child of rape is. Absolutely not. We would be committing a wrong more wicked than the rape itself--the murder of a person who has done no wrong. Abortion is a scourge on this country and aborting for rape compounds an already bad situation. Why not give the child up for adoption, place him in a home with a mother and a father, where he will be loved?
 

PureX

Well-known member
You use a lot of loaded language here. It is not oppression if the cause is moral,...
Yes, it is. Thinking we're right doesn't make us right. And it doesn't give us the right to make everyone else comply with our presumption of righteousness.
And yes, it is right to imprison people who fails to meet the moral imperatives of the law.
The law has no "moral imperative". The law is based on social imperatives, such as equality, security, and individual freedom.
You seem to assume that the current state of affairs is some kind of ideological neutral position with no presuppositions whatsoever while those who wish to change it are the only ones that are motivated by ideology.
Government isn't about the promoting of ideologies. It's about keeping the peace, protecting the borders, and guarding our freedom. And part of that freedom is the freedom to believe as we wish, and to live according to our beliefs, so far as we are able in an organized interdependent society. That's the big mistake that's being made, here. This odd presumption that it's the government's place to do what even God Himself has chosen NOT to do: to enforce moral codes on people. The law against killing people isn't about the morality of killing. It's about keeping the peace within the society that's being governed. The laws against stealing are not about the immorality of theft. They're about protecting the rights of individuals from the abuse of other individuals within the society being governed. This isn't a battle between ideologies. It's a malicious attempt by of one group of people to oppress, by a deliberate perversion of government, the rights and freedom of other people.
The heart of this issue is the question of whether it is moral or immoral to committ abortions,...
No, that is not the heart of this issue. Everyone presumes their opinion is the "moral" opinion. But not everyone is trying to force everyone else to comply with their own presumed morally superior opinion.
I'm not an American, so I'm no expert on how the political system works. But it is my impression that the judges of the supreme court are elected by the president with approval of the senate. If that is indeed the case, I do not see how appointing judges with a certain moral leaning is against the democratic process.
They are proposed by the president, and either accepted or rejected by the Senate. But the president is supposed to be appointing the most qualified and UNBIASED jurists he can find, and the Senate is supposed to be voting on these qualifications. But because our politicians are willing to pander to people who do not have the best interest of the country and the courts in mind, they have been deliberately appointing biased judges. If one side does it then the other side thinks it has to do the same to "balance out' the bias, and the result is that instead of having highly qualified unbiased judges sitting on the highest courts in the land, we have poorly qualified biased judges that are now deciding important issues along political party lines. Which defeats the whole purpose of having these high courts in the first place.

Our government is based on a balance of power between the three branches (executive, legislative, and judicial) and when the partisan politics of one or another branch overwhelms the unbiased jurisprudence of the third, the whole system starts to come apart (as we are witnessing). The system depends on qualified unbiased judges.
I assume the right to abortion was appointed by the supreme court, which consisted of a certain set of judges with certain views. I do not see how you can argue that a morally conservative judge has any less right to be a member of the supreme court without presupposing the validity of your own view. It is no more stacking the courts than when the more liberal parties appoints more liberal judges. Seems to me that the appointment of judges to the supreme court is an essential part of the democratic rule of the country. Whether that is a good system is another question.
You are operating under the erroneous assumption that the political system is by definition a battle of biased opinions. But this is only so in the legislative branch, and even there the purpose of the 'battles' is to create consensus and find a workable compromise. It is not supposed to be an aspect of the judiciary, however. In fact, the judiciary is supposed to be just the opposite of a battle of biases. It's supposed to provide the resolution of such biased opposing perspectives through an unbiased application of jurisprudence. Stacking the courts with biased (and therefor unqualified) judges completely destroys the intent and purpose of the whole judicial system.
It may be a fear, it is however not a valid argument against the pro-life position simply because you are attaching lots of opinions and points of view to a cause that does not necessarily contain them.
I am not making any arguments against the 'pro-life' position. I am trying to explain the inherent malice that is expressed when people use their own presumed righteousness as an excuse to force their moral imperatives on other people. This only relates to the 'pro-life' argument in that many proclaimed 'pro-lifers' are acting with malice against their own government and fellow citizens.

I don't believe this malice is being cause by being 'pro-life'. I believe it's caused by the false presumption of self-righteous superiority that some 'pro-lifers' have fallen into.
 

Lon

Well-known member
I can appreciate that. But what does your decision have to do with me, or anyone else? Should we have to abide by your decisions? Why? Most Christians believe that God gave them ten commandments. Yet even God does not enforce these commands. We are free to make our own decisions before God, as to whether we will obey them or not.

So if even God has chosen to respect our freedom to decide for ourselves how we will live, why do so many Christians think they have the right to usurp that God-given freedom? Do they know more than God about how human beings should be allowed to live?
Sounds a bit like the Old West where "everybody does right in their own eyes" to me.

If you unhooked yourself from my child, I might'a shot your guts out back then though and the law would have looked the other way. Two wrongs don't something or something...
 

Stripe

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In a sense. You're forgiving him enough to bear his child.
Thats insane. You're a total mess.

I'm not talking evolution I'm talking simple genetics. Plus the Bible talks about seed being cut off and sins being visited upon the descendants. Why you assume everything is evolution is beyond me.
:darwinsm:

No, you guys think anything that stops a zygote from implanting is a "killing a baby" and abortion. We should establish what is defined as abortion before arguing cases when it is okay.
No, you should respect the nature of a discussion before trying to manipulate it serve your ends.

Is abortion after 9 weeks of pregnancy in the case of rape okay? Maybe, especially if you tried other methods and failed or didn't know etc.
Thus rendering utterly irrelevant your nutty idea that the same person at 1 day old is not a person.

And yours is more valuable than mine why? Because you said so? Talk about zero value. Everything you say is that.
There's no chance that what I advocate is murder.

This is not a person.It's not just size, it's qualitative differences.
Like what? Size is one. Height to weight ratio? Brain capacity? Awareness of pain? Parent's occupation? Skin colour? Ethnicity?

You're the one insisting you are justified in killing him. What quality is it that you use to justify murder?

This is a tiny person:
And at six weeks old, when you consider him a person, you still think he can be killed if his father was a rapist.

You're sick. Something has addled your brain. You need to go have a good long think through what it is you believe and why you believe it because it's messed up!
 

Alate_One

Well-known member
Thats insane. You're a total mess.
It's the rapist's child as much as it is the woman's. Are you going to deny that?

There's no chance that what I advocate is murder.
There's a chance you're advocating locking women up to make sure they give birth.

Like what? Size is one. Height to weight ratio? Brain capacity? Awareness of pain? Parent's occupation? Skin colour? Ethnicity?
How about something simple like, actually *having* neurons? Having differentiated cells of any kind? Having a head? I'm not asking for much here.

You're going way off the deep end with the last three.

You're the one insisting you are justified in killing him. What quality is it that you use to justify murder?
It has absolutely nothing we'd associate with a human being other than simply having a set of human chromosomes and having the potential (maybe 50percent-ish) to turn into something everyone would agree is a baby. If having human DNA is your rule, why aren't all human cells protected? Especially stem cells from placenta and cord blood which might be able to be coaxed into forming a new embryo under the right conditions.

And at six weeks old, when you consider him a person, you still think he can be killed if his father was a rapist.
Why should the mother be forced to carry a rapist's child?

Presumably if a woman were raped, she'd either be using the morning after pill (which you would class as abortion) and be paying close attention to whether she was pregnant or not. So the odds are that extremely few women end up at six weeks old wanting an abortion.

But even someone did end up in that position I don't think it is right to tell a woman who has been violated in such a profound way that she must carry the rapist's child. If any woman should have a choice, it is that one.
 

Stripe

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It's the rapist's child as much as it is the woman's. Are you going to deny that?
Yes. The rapist has no rights bar the right to a swift and painful execution.

There's a chance you're advocating locking women up to make sure they give birth.
No, there's not.

There is also zero chance that what I advocate is murder.

How about something simple like, actually *having* neurons? Having differentiated cells of any kind? Having a head? I'm not asking for much here.
Those will come. :idunno:

Don't be so impatient.

It has absolutely nothing we'd associate with a human being other than simply having a set of human chromosomes and having the potential (maybe 50percent-ish) to turn into something everyone would agree is a baby. If having human DNA is your rule, why aren't all human cells protected? Especially stem cells from placenta and cord blood which might be able to be coaxed into forming a new embryo under the right conditions.
All utterly irrelevant given you advocate the choice for a mother to murder her child when even you concede personhood.

Why should the mother be forced to carry a rapist's child?
Why should the child be murdered because his father was a rapist? Oh, that's right. Because you think rapists are rapists because of a genetic component and that evolution might lessen their numbers. :doh:

But even someone did end up in that position I don't think it is right to tell a woman who has been violated in such a profound way that she must carry the rapist's child. If any woman should have a choice, it is that one.
Which renders irrelevant all your nonsense ideas on when personhood begins. You advocate murder for children, living human beings, whose fathers were rapists. And you will rail against those who advocate executing the rapist, as proper justice would favour.

You're totally messed up.
 
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Butterfly

New member
I sat in on a discussion with a Christian pro-lifer and a stout pro-choice advocate. One of the questions posed was if an unborn child was innocent or sinless, the pro-lifer stated "yes" but the pro-choice person countered with this verse:

#1
Psalm 51:5 "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."

#2
They argued back and forth for some time but what really stood out was this argument presented by the pro-choicer, I never heard of before. In the book of Numbers 5:12-31, the pro-choicer claimed these passages prove that God induced abortions with the "bitter water" being the modern-day equivalent to RU486.

Read through those passages but the claim was that any children conceived who was not the biological offspring of the husband, the bitter water test would abort the fetus if the women did have extra-martial relations.

Has anyone ever heard of this before? I haven't. It was the first time I ever heard this presented and it left me puzzled. How do you resolve those passages?

I will number the points brought-up so as to keep track of them when discussing.
 
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Butterfly

New member
#3
As far as cases of rape, this example was brought up during the discussion. Genesis 38

Genesis 38:24 "About three months later Judah was told, “Your daughter-in-law Tamar is guilty of prostitution, and as a result she is now pregnant.” Judah said, “Bring her out and have her burned to death!”

The argument was posed if the child should pay for the sins of the parents? Tamar was pregnant but she was a widow without a husband. They accused her of being a prostitute because she was pregnant and they were going to burn her alive, along with her baby. Of course it never happened because Judah discovered that he is the father of Tamar's baby and stopped it. Although the actions of Judah were never condemned.

#4
The argument was posed that if a woman committed adultery she was to be executed, there was no exception for women who were pregnant. So in essence, pregnant women and their unborn babies were put to death. That was their argument.

Deuteronomy 22: 21
Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.
 

Stripe

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How do you resolve those passages?

Simple. Psalm 51 speaks of the world the author was born into, not the condition of an innocent child. And Numbers seems to say nothing at all about pregnancy.
 

Butterfly

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#5
The final arguments posed in this debate were the following verses:

Hosea 9:11-12 Ephraim’s glory will fly away like a bird— no birth, no pregnancy, no conception Even if they rear children, I will bereave them of every one.

Hosea 13:16 "Their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up."

1 Samuel 15:3 "Slay both man and woman, infant and suckling."

Isaiah 13:16 "Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled and their wives ravished."

2 Kings 8:12 "Dash their children, and rip up their women with child."

Ezekiel 9:6 "Slay utterly old and young, both maids and little children."

Isaiah 13:18 "They shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eyes shall not spare children."

Numbers 31:17 "Now therefore kill every male among the little ones."




As usual this debate ended in a stalemate. It was interesting to watch them go at it and while I am pro-life, I must admit that the pro-choice person did a good job of debating their position as they used the Bible to defend their position, which is usually not the case for pro-choice people. They use human wisdom and philosophy but this pro-choicer used the Bible to make the attempt to prove the Bible was pro-life in many instances. The pro-choice debater stated that the Bible has many examples of where the unborn and born child were punished for the sins of the parent or parents.
 
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