toldailytopic: US House of Representatives pass Obama-care.

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The Barbarian

BANNED
Banned
[sarcasm]THE SKY IS FALLING! THE SKY IS FALLING! [/sarcasm]

He said he was going to do this when he was running for president. He was overwhelmingly elected. What did you think would happen?
 

bigbang123

New member
according to David Frum (a former speechwriter for George W)

"Conservatives and Republicans today suffered their most crushing legislative defeat since the 1960s."

interesting, must read post

http://www.frumforum.com/waterloo

"It’s a good bet that conservatives are over-optimistic about November – by then the economy will have improved and the immediate goodies in the healthcare bill will be reaching key voting blocs."

"No illusions please: This bill will not be repealed. Even if Republicans scored a 1994 style landslide in November, how many votes could we muster to re-open the “doughnut hole” and charge seniors more for prescription drugs? How many votes to re-allow insurers to rescind policies when they discover a pre-existing condition? How many votes to banish 25 year olds from their parents’ insurance coverage? And even if the votes were there – would President Obama sign such a repeal?"
 

majortarage

New member
Can the Senators request that the funding of abortion be removed?

Can the Senators request that the funding of abortion be removed?

well it ain't over till it gets to the iniquitous senate...

so can they do a deal - you take out funding abortion? Or has all those opportunities passed

:bang:

if not the many disasters that we've been experiencing since 2005 will probably increase

for the innocent blood now paid for by robbing the citizenry shall cry out
 

bigbang123

New member
Obama-care benefits that kick in this year

1. SMALL BUSINESS TAX CREDITS-- Offers tax credits to small businesses to make employee coverage more affordable. Tax credits of up to 35 percent of premiums will be immediately available to firms that choose to offer coverage. Effective beginning for calendar year 2010. (Beginning in 2014, the small business tax credits will cover 50 percent of premiums.)

2. BEGINS TO CLOSE THE MEDICARE PART D DONUT HOLE-- Provides a $250 rebate to Medicare beneficiaries who hit the donut hole in 2010. Effective for calendar year 2010. (Beginning in 2011, institutes a 50% discount on brand-name drugs in the donut hole; also completely closes the donut hole by 2020.)

3. FREE PREVENTIVE CARE UNDER MEDICARE-- Eliminates co-payments for preventive services and exempts preventive services from deductibles under the Medicare program. Effective beginning January 1, 2011.

4. HELP FOR EARLY RETIREES-- Creates a temporary re-insurance program (until the Exchanges are available) to help offset the costs of expensive health claims for employers that provide health benefits for retirees age 55-64. Effective 90 days after enactment

5. ENDS RESCISSIONS-- Bans health plans from dropping people from coverage when they get sick. Effective 6 months after enactment.

6. NO DISCRIMINATON AGAINST CHILDREN UNDER AGE 19 WITH PRE-EXISTING CONDITIONS-- Prohibits health plans from denying coverage to children with pre-existing conditions. Effective 6 months after enactment. (Beginning in 2014, this prohibition would apply to all persons.) Adult children may remain as dependents on their parents’ policy until their 27th birthday

7. BANS LIFETIME LIMITS ON COVERAGE-- Prohibits health plans from placing lifetime caps on coverage. Effective 6 months after enactment.

8. BANS RESTRICTIVE ANNUAL LIMITS ON COVERAGE-- Tightly restricts new plans' use of annual limits to ensure access to needed care. These tight restrictions will be defined by HHS. Effective 6 months after enactment. (Beginning in 2014, the use of any annual limits would be prohibited for all plans.)
 

nicholsmom

New member
The reform, which will cost an estimated $940bn over 10 years, amounts to a massive change in US health provision, expanding care to 32 million more people, predominantly the poorest, and giving the country 95% coverage.

These poorest and homeless you act so concerned about already have access to health care, and you know it. The poorest get Medicaid, and I can tell you from experience that that is the best-paying health insurance you can get - and for FREE! Others who can't qualify for Medicaid have other free and low-cost services available to them - I know bc my nephew is able to get his teeth fixed for $17 bucks, and I once went to a low-cost clinic where I was turned away bc I was not uninsured. These are ways that the poorest already get their health care costs paid for them. In addition to that, you know perfectly well that anyone - I mean anyone, including illegals and people shot in the commission of a crime, etc - can go to the emergency room to be treated and cannot be turned away regardless of ability to pay.

So you tell me, if the poorest (including the homeless) already get free, or next-to-free, health care services and still die in the streets from curable diseases, what makes you think that socialized medicine will change that? Is there a provision in the bill for rounding up all the homeless and forcing them to have a check-up?

Do you want to know the main reason that these people die from curable diseases? It isn't lack of free health services. It isn't the Republicans standing in the way. It isn't lack of free housing, or free food. It's lack of care - self-care. If they cannot be made to care for themselves, then no services, private or government-forced, will prevent their self destruction. If their family members and friends cannot be made to care enough to lift them up and see them through the tough times, then their is little help of their coming up off the street to take care of themselves. If it weren't for Christian organizations like CAM (Coordinate Assistance Ministries), the Salvation Army, pregnancy resource centers, and (our own) Kokomo Rescue Mission, in addition to the thousands of churches across the nation to help these people, there would be no hope for them at all. The government doesn't go to these people on the street and give them a sandwich and a blanket, or listen to their complaints, or help them get to the shelters or to doctor appointments - it's these organizations that do.

No amount of throwing cash and free services at the poor will change any part of their lives without someone there to care enough to bring them along when they are willing, and bring care to them when they are not willing to go to where help can be had.

Honestly, you ought to spend some time volunteering for one of these ministries. Might teach you a thing or two about reality.
 

bybee

New member
My concern

My concern

The TheologyOnline.com TOPIC OF THE DAY for March 21st, 2010 09:15 PM


toldailytopic: US House of Representatives pass Obama-care.



Your thoughts?

Take the topic above and run with it! Slice it, dice it, give us your general thoughts about it. Everyday there will be a new TOL Topic of the Day.
If you want to make suggestions for the Topic of the Day send a Tweet to @toldailytopic or @theologyonline or send it to us via Facebook.

We appear to be in the clutches of a "One issue" president. What about foreign affairs? Immigration reform? jobs? taxes? He has ignored the big picture to pursue this personal agenda. Health care for all Americans is a noble goal. And I would support a plan which didnot threaten working people and small businesses with burdensome additional taxes. Also, to take away the freedom of choice by instituting punitive measures, simply clouds the picture. I do not foresee a good outcome to this legislation. bybee
 

Son of Jack

New member
What I am about to type is in no way meant to be inflammatory or snide, but....if the church was being the church here, then would bills like this one even be necessary?
 

chickenman

a-atheist
Gold Subscriber
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Just another of many sad days in America. We shouldn't have expected anything else from our country's leadership.
 

nicholsmom

New member
To a number of people around the joint:

No one has the right to steal. But then you aren't being stolen from. Taxes aren't theft even if you call them that. Even if you say it with an angry shake of your fist and repeat it over and over...and if you do that you'll only make yourself look a great deal like the PETA extremist who calls eating meat murder.
I agree, but this isn't taxation in the normal sense of the word. This is more like racketeering - forced purchase of "protection" - by the government. What will this "protection" do for us? Here's one thing I rather suspect will be provided: required testing for Ds in utero. Why? Because "Recent US studies have indicated that when Down syndrome is diagnosed prenatally, 84-91 percent of those babies will be killed by abortion." And abortion - even when paid by the federal government - is much cheaper than the potential health care costs of a person with Down syndrome.

Don't go trying to tell me, either, that the government has the capacity to care about the plight of these infants in the womb or to count life as more important than dollars - not when this bill uses tax dollars to pay for abortions.

This is the attitude that I expect the government to take:

Aetna considers multiple serum marker testing (human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) with maternal serum alpha-fetoprotein (MSAFP), unconjugated estriol, and dimeric inhibin A) medically necessary for pregnant women who have been adequately counseled and who desire information on their risk of having a Down syndrome fetus.
Does that concern you? What does it mean - "adequately counseled?" And do these women desire information on the day-to-day life with a child with Ds, or are they just interested in killing that child?

It isn't. When you use this sort of language you take on the appearance of the fringe fanatic. In doing that you seriously degrade your ability to engage and be listened to by anyone not of a likened mind. I think that's unfortunate...but maybe it's just a momentary anger clouding otherwise and normally reasonable minds.
Maybe. There are plenty of reasons for us to be angry with this one. I can tell you, I can barely survive with the costs I currently have. The only hope I can find in my future with the increased costs of this "insurance" is in the possibility of repeal or revolution. I will not be able to afford to continue to stay home with my kids. I will not be able to afford to pay for choir and dance. There is no chance that I can put braces on Grace Zeta - pretty as she is, she will lose those front teeth if we can't get her lower jaw to support them. And do you think I will be able to afford to get Stevie's testing done? Because of the Ds she has a medical testing schedule that is much more rigorous than for typical kids. What if she gets one of those diseases that is more common for people with Ds? I won't be able to afford her care. How is this better? I know I can't count on the government to value Stevie as much as the next kid - we'll have to pay through the nose.

I simply can't afford the government's plan.

That said, I think the bill is horribly flawed, does very little to actually impact (at least for the immediate future) the gross misconduct of insurance corporations and has any number of faults.
What do you call gross misconduct? Dumping high-risk clients? Not allowing pre-existing conditions? You do realize that insurance is a gambling sort of business? Insurance companies are businesses - they must make money - though their margin is woefully short - and that money is made by balancing risks with premiums. Some risks are just too darned expensive. The only way they can balance the risk is to charge low-risk folks enough to cover the high-risk folks. Frustrates me, being in the low-risk category, but then I'd rather do away with the whole third-party payer system all the way up to Medicaid and Medicare, letting all costs settle into a more rational realm, and allowing the local charities (supported by people like me - once more of my money is in my pocket to do so) manage the provision to the poor. It's simply not the government's job.

I think we should take a hard look at the Swedish model. They manage to provide services to all of their people and do so utilizing about 6% less of their GDP. Theirs is the second most expensive health care system, but in it the aged and disabled aren't after thoughts (thinking of your objection there, NM).

The Swiss people are by and large happy with their coverage (though they still complain about costs...they should try our numbers) and receive a fairly high quality of health care without the rationing that alarms many considering an alteration of our current system.
Not without rationing:
While Sweden is a first world country, its health care system - at least in regards to access - is closer to the third world. Because the health care system is heavily-funded and operated by the government, the system is plagued with waiting lists for surgery. Those waiting lists increase patients' anxiety, pain and risk of death.

Sweden's health care system offers two lessons for the policymakers of the United States. The first is that a single-payer system is not the answer to the problems faced as Americans. Sweden's system does not hold down costs and results in rationing of care. The second lesson is that market-oriented reforms must permit the market to work. Specifically, government should not protect health care providers that fail to provide patients with a quality service from going out of business.​
 
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Memento Mori

New member
where DO they get their money ?

Well Congress can issue money. Of course, there are bigger problems with printing more money in order to compensate. But that's for another thread.

Other than that, there are taxes.

First of all,do you know a single homeless person? Second, if they don't think that,why are they still around?

Actually, I do know one guy that managed to work his way out of homelessness. He finally caught a break working for a contractor, I think. He currently attends college with me.

Work isn't easy to find. And where there is work, it's long, difficult and pays little. There are agencies that allow people a small wage with long hours. Unfortunately, it's not always steady. Etc. Etc.

no i don't. but what job pays that little anyway?

Minimum wage jobs barely cover that. There's a "30 Days" episode in which Morgan Spurlock and his fiance live on minimum wage and just barely make ends meet. You can watch the episode online. I'll have to find it if you want a link.

To Sozo:

The Declaration of Independence states that people have an inalienable right to life.

NM, I'll get back to you. Time for class!
 

Zeke

Well-known member
Banker, Paul Warburg: testified before the US senate on Feb 17, 1950.

"We will have a world goverment whether you like it or not. The only question is whether that goverment will be achieved by conguest or consent."

but that was for kooks, and fringe patriots, 9-11 truthers, etc...now its knocking on your door and you will be forced to let it in, enjoy you were warned.

JFK, was the last president that was going to actually do something against this, and he didn't fare to well! get ready to meet hell huckleberries.

What time is the ball game?
 

Egbert

New member
It's not what I was hoping for, but it's better than nothing. We're over the hump now: the big fight is pretty much over. Now, provided the Senate finishes the job, we can start seeing what really works and what does not, and the system can be further tweaked, hopefully with a public option.
 

bigbang123

New member
the political prophets were wrong about obamacare not becoming law

Boehner on "Meet the Press" -- September 20, 2009
"So you think the plan is dead?" asked host David Gregory.
"I think it is," said Boehner.

Rep. Mike Pence (R-Ind.) - March 12, 2008
"I've been being asked that question over the last couple days, and to be honest with you, I don't think they can pass the bill... I don't even think we need to be talking about 'after they pass it' because they don't have the votes right now..."

Rep. Eric Cantor (R-Va.) - February 25, 2010
"We have to continue the fight to make sure [it is dead]," Cantor says, "but all signs indicate now they cannot pass this in the House."

It wasn't just Republicans who thought health care reform was dead. Democrats, too, resigned themselves to dropping the bill.

Rep. Anthony Weiner (D-NY) - January 19, 2010
"I think you can make a pretty good argument that health care might be dead."

Rep. Barney Frank (D-Mass.) - January 20, 2010
"I think the measure that would have passed, that is, some compromise between the House and Senate bill, which I would have voted for, although there were some aspects of both bills I would have liked to see change, I think that's dead."

Rep. Carolyn Maloney (D-NY) - January 20, 2010
"If [Martha Coakley] loses, [health care] over."

Rep. Dan Boren (D-OK) - March 3, 2010
"I think the votes are not there and I don't see where we get them."

The media also jumped the gun on health care's impending death or, at the very least, misread the tea leaves.

Chris Matthews - January 19, 2010
"It's that rare election where voters know exactly what they're voting on. If they're with Democrat Martha Coakleyl, they get health care reform. If they go for Republican Scott Brown it's deliberate, premeditated murder for health care!"

Fred Barnes, The Weekly Standard - January 20, 2010
"The health care bill, ObamaCare, is dead with not the slightest prospect of resurrection. Brown ran to be the 41st vote for filibuster and now he is just that. Democrats have talked up clever strategies to pass the bill in the Senate despite Brown, but they won't fly. It's one thing for ObamaCare to be rejected by the American public in poll after poll. But it becomes a matter of considerably greater political magnitude when ObamaCare causes the loss of a Senate race in the blue state of Massachusetts."

Reason magazine - January 22, 2010
"Health Care Is Dead--Just Don't Tell the Left"

George Stephanopoulos - January 19, 2010
"I think most Democrats right now would agree with Congressman Barney Frank, a loyal supporter of the president, who said that health reform in this form is likely dead if Coakley loses."

Andrew Sullivan - January 19, 2010
"What comes next will be a real test for [President Barack] Obama... I suspect serious health insurance reform is over for yet another generation."
 

nicholsmom

New member
It's not what I was hoping for, but it's better than nothing. We're over the hump now: the big fight is pretty much over.
All but the elections in November. I'm voting for any schmo who runs on a repeal ticket :thumb:
Now, provided the Senate finishes the job
Excuse me??? They got what they wanted in full measure. What makes you think that they will make a single change? You are such an innocent. Poor thing.

we can start seeing what really works and what does not
We can see it already by looking around in the world. This thing that they passed - won't. No amount of government control beyond what is needed for simple law and order is ever a good thing. That's what the founders knew. Read your Constitution - it's nothing but limitations on government. That's a mighty big clue all by itself. Then have a look at what the founding fathers themselves had to say about government. The worked hard to change it from a dirty word to something livable - and nothing more. Ben Franklin expressed doubts as to whether we'd be able to keep government from growing out of bounds when he said (to the question of what form of government the Constitution provided): "A Republic, if you can keep it."

I rather suspect that it will take some of that great revolutionary spirit to bring life back to that Republic that was given us such a short time ago.
 

Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
I agree, but this isn't taxation in the normal sense of the word.
It's essentially the same sort that forces you to have coverage on your automobile to keep me from having to carry you if you're in an accident.
What will this "protection" do for us?
Provide health care and lower costs associated with millions forced to seek uninsured care at emergency rooms across the country, diminish disease and suffering and death...that sort of thing.
Here's one thing I rather suspect will be provided: required testing for Ds in utero. Why?
Unsupported by anything other than your ire and suspicion. It just isn't reasonable or in any bill before Congress. You could make the same argument for insurance companies who, unlike the government, have a vested interest in the lowest expenditure possible. They're here to make money, right?
Don't go trying to tell me, either, that the government has the capacity to care about the plight of these infants in the womb or to count life as more important than dollars
I don't need to. You just did...and it's true, but only to the extent we can change American attitudes about certain, limited uses for abortion.
Does that concern you?
Why wouldn't it?
What does it mean - "adequately counseled?"
I don't know. I'd bet they have an established criteria though.
And do these women desire information on the day-to-day life with a child with Ds, or are they just interested in killing that child?
It would depend on the woman and her character, don't you think?
There are plenty of reasons for us to be angry with this one. I can tell you, I can barely survive with the costs I currently have. The only hope I can find in my future with the increased costs of this "insurance" is in the possibility of repeal or revolution.
Actually, if it works as advertised you shouldn't see anything but a help in that regard.

What in the plan suddenly makes you unable to continue to be home with your kids or removes any of the medical possibilities you have in front of you now? Literally, other than your fear this will be the case. Show me how the legislation passed robs you of anything on your list? You think your premiums are going up? Why?
What do you call gross misconduct? Dumping high-risk clients? Not allowing pre-existing conditions?
Among other things, sure. Growing multi billion dollar war chests, raking in thousands of dollars from patients while paying out hundreds per.
You do realize that insurance is a gambling sort of business?
Sure. With human lives, in the case of health care.
Insurance companies are businesses - they must make money -
No one is saying they can't do that.
though their margin is woefully short -
Are you taking medically legal marijuana? They are among the most profitable and richest corporations in the world. Again, having fought them now and then in court, they have billions of dollars set aside for litigation alone.
and that money is made by balancing risks with premiums.
Not much risk, actually. They have the math like the casino has the odds figured. And they've gotten greedy with those margins...

Re: your article.

First, the AAPS is a recognized group of conservative physicians (formerly grouped under the less people/PR friendly Medical Sentinel title) who have a political track record for anyone interested in it. Among their claims? That secular humanists have conspired to usurp the "creation religion of Jehovah" with evolution (Conspiracy--Part III, by Curtis W. Caine, MD. Published in Medical Sentinel, 1999;4(6):224.) and that HIV doesn't, in fact, cause AIDS. :plain:

And here we are in 2010, two years after the teetering of the Swiss system and the facts don't support the anecdotal and misleading attack. That said, I suggested looking at the Swiss, not copying them whole cloth.

Your second reference is a three year old report by the NCPA. That group is on Right Watch and is affiliated with right wing think tanks that put out policy spin. Anyone confusing Swedish health care with a third world country probably doesn't understand either or has a less than objective axe in need of sharpening.

Here's a general link to Swedish health care (you might want to look at the dental bit, NM) to get things started. From that, "for many years Sweden's health care system has regularly ranked at or near the top of most comparative analyses of various international health care systems."

But don't take their word for it. Do a little research. Sweden's life expectancy has continued to rise and concerns over delays in certain surgical procedures led to the country addressing it with a 90 day guarantee. By late 2008, 75% of patients received treatment within that window.
Those waiting lists increase patients' anxiety, pain and risk of death.
You know what else does that? Not being able to get an operation at all. :plain: And not being able to go to the doctor when you're simply sick and need to work. That sort of thing...:plain:
Sweden's system does not hold down costs and results in rationing of care.
Though they manage to hold costs down significantly better than some other countries...say...us. Have any idea what 1% of our GDP translates to? Now try 6% plus. :rolleyes: The rationing bit simply isn't sustained by any current study I've seen.
The second lesson is that market-oriented reforms must permit the market to work. Specifically, government should not protect health care providers that fail to provide patients with a quality service from going out of business.
Without real competition that's fairly meaningless rhetoric. And if we aren't going to have that competition or have the sort of faux competition we see among big oil, good riddance to bad rubbish and absent care.

:e4e:
 

elohiym

Well-known member
The only thing that irks me more than stupid politicians who vote for something without having read it, is stupid citizens who say a bill they haven't read being passed is a good thing.

Idiots!
 
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