toldailytopic: The rapture. When will it happen and what will it be like?

[Aimiel]

If that is what you believe, fine. It will either be true or untrue. I don't think the rapture will be happening.

If it does happen, you won't miss it, simply because you don't believe in a 'rapture' or see any evidence of it. If it doesn't happen, I wonder how many who believe in a rapture will turn their back on God, because their pet doctrine wasn't true? :think:

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

I have never claimed that I am from the tribe of Ephraim. STP is lying and he knows that he is lying, yet he says it anyway.

I apologize. You are an Israelite by virtue of Ephraim being made a multitude of nations.

Gen 48:19-20 (KJV)

 

[Psalmist]

"Our Blessed Hope"

Looking for the blessed hope
and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.
Titus 2:13

Everyday Mrs. Psalmist and I say, "We are one day closer!"

Everyday Mrs. Psalmist and I say, "This could be the day!"

We therefore comfort one another with those words.


Amen and Amen, Praise the Lord.


:the_wave:
​

 

[john w]

Since John W and STP cannot refute me with scripture they resort to making up stuff about me.

I have never claimed that I am from the tribe of Ephraim. STP is lying and he knows that he is lying, yet he says it anyway.

I have never claimed I am a British Israelite. I have made many posts to John W and STP telling them that I am not a British Israelite yet they continue to bare false witness against me.

British Israelism is a heresy. British Israelites observe the Torah today. They observe feasts, observe the Mosaic law and at the same time acknowledge that Jesus is the Messiah.

The only difference between British Israelism and Messianic Judaism (another heresy) is that the British Israelites think they are descendents from one of the 10 lost tribes.

So, John W and STP will still say lies about me because they cannot refute what I say with scripture.

___
Since tetty cannot refute me with scripture he resorts to making up stuff about me. So, the British Israelist, subjectivist, Preterist, bible agnostic will say lies about me because he cannot refute anything I say with scripture.

So there. This is fun. I learned that from you.

 

[tetelestai]

Circumcision, Sabbath law, feasts are PERPETUAL covenants for Israel.

First off Tom, it does not say “perpetual”, it says “everlasting.”

So, what does “everlasting” mean?

Most would say something that has a beginning, but has no end. (eternal has no beginning no end)

However, we see the following in Psalm 41:13:

(Psalm 41:13) Blessed be the LORD God of Israel from everlasting, and to everlasting. Amen, and Amen.

Here it says from everlasting to everlasting.

IOW, it is a period of time.

Now, back to “perpetual”, the word “perpetual” is mentioned many times about statutes given to the Israelites in Exodus, Leviticus, and Numbers.

However, almost every time a perpetual statute is given, the words “throughout your generations” follows.

When did the generations of Israelites come to an end? Answer: 70AD. When the Romans destroyed the temple in 70AD it was the end of the generations for the Israelites, or what is referred to as the “last days”.

(Heb 1:2) Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Because dispensationalists do not understand that the last days were the approximate 40 years (a generation) from the cross to the destruction of the temple in 70AD they make up all kinds of fairytales about a future rapture and antichrist.

When Christ and his law became effective - it was the end of the Israelite generations. This is proof that the expressions do not mean that they never end, only that it was "forever" during, or for a specified period of time, “throughout their generations.”

When Christ became our Passover and Christ became our law giver; then His testament became effective. It was then that the “generations” throughout which all these covenants were to be “everlasting”, or “perpetual”, or “forever” came to an end.

They are no longer binding according to the New Testament teachings. Christ “freed” the Israelites from all the fleshly bonds, ties, and covenants.

Moses, himself, told the Israelites that there would be a greater prophet to rise up and that they should listen to him (Deut 18:15).

(Deut 18:15) The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

 

[Stripe]

What's the rapture gonna be like?

Scary. lain:

 

[tetelestai]

I apologize. You are an Israelite by virtue of Ephraim being made a multitude of nations.

Gen 48:19-20 (KJV)

I am an Israelite because I have faith in Jesus Christ.

(Gal 6:16) And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

The NC was always promised to the house of Israel and the house of Judah (not to Jews only).

You don’t understand that there is a difference between the house of Israel and the house of Judah. You think that all Israelites are Jews.

The house of Israel is sometimes referred to as “Ephraim” in the OT because of the blessing given to Ephraim in Gen 48:19. The reason the house of Israel is called Ephraim is probably because the vast majority of the population that made up the house of Israel were descendents of Ephraim as promised in Gen 48:19.

These descendents of Ephraim, along with the descendents of the other 9 lost tribes, and the Jews are who the NC was made with.

However, that’s only the start of it. It gets a lot more involved once the NC and the kingdom are revealed to us by Jesus via Paul.

 

[Non-Excluvistic]

If it does happen, you won't miss it, simply because you don't believe in a 'rapture' or see any evidence of it. If it doesn't happen, I wonder how many who believe in a rapture will turn their back on God, because their pet doctrine wasn't true? :think:

I guess only time will tell. It will either be true or untrue. i don't believe a rapture will be happening.

 

[TeeJay]

You are wrong again Tom.

(Hosea 11:1) When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

(Matt 2:15) And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

Tom, according to the above scriptures Jesus is Israel. Therefore, if one is of the Body of Christ, then one is of Israel.

Let’s look at more scripture that confirms this:

(Gal 6:15-16)

15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

According to the above scriptures, if one is “in Christ” then one is the Israel of God.

Tom, you are doing the same exact thing the Pharisees did. You assume that “Israel” is supposed to be a political, military, earthly kingdom like when David was king.

Jesus explains that the kingdom is not like that, yet you, like the Pharisees that killed Him, insist it is supposed to be like when David was king.

Tet, circumcision was given to Abraham and all his descendants as a perpetual covenant.

God bless, Tom from Mabank, TX

 

[TeeJay]

Tet, God promised His Twelve apostles that they would rule over the Twelve Tribes of Israel. No?

God bless, Tom from Mabank, Texas

 

[TeeJay]

I don't think any rapture will be happening.

NE, you are right! There will be no Rapture for those who worship the pagan moon god allah who does not exist. Those worshiping this pagan moon god will be dispatched directly to be with Mohammed who is now in Hell awaiting the Great White Throne judgment.

Islam denies the diety of Jesus Christ and teaches that He was simply a prophet. But a carefull reading of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John does not give you this option. Jesus gives you three choices: Either He is a liar, a lunitic, or He is Lord (God). But a prophet is not an option that is presented to you.

Both Mohammed and Jesus Christ can't be true, for they are diametrically opposed. Both can be wrong, but both can't be right. The laws of logic will not allow both to be true.

In Jesus Christ "the fulness of the Godhead dwells."

God bless, Tom from Mabank, TX

 

[Nick M]

Since John W and STP cannot refute me with scripture they resort to making up stuff about me.

Am I making this up about you? You are off the deep end.

complete lack of acknowledgement that Israel split into two and God divorced 10/12 of all Israelites, and the making all Israelites Jews.

All Jews are Israelites, but not all Israelites are Jews.

The Jews were the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

The House of Israel included every tribe except Judah, Benjamin, and some Levites. (no Jews)

That's not what I am saying.

I am saying that Gentiles become Israel.

It was the fall of Israel in 750BC that made salvation available to the Gentiles.

Tom, I wouldn't strugle too much with Tet. Post what needs to be said so others can read it, but you won't change his mind. As you can clearly see.

 

[tetelestai]

Am I making this up about you? You are off the deep end.

Nick I can explain to you that not all Israelites are Jews, but I can’t make you understand it.

It is you who has his mind made up about MAD and refuses to listen to what the Bible says.

You, like John W, take different posts of mine out of context and twist what I have said.

There is a difference between the house of Israel and the house of Judah. The Israelites from the tribes of the house of Israel were never Jews.

However, you don’t want to hear this because it defeats your man made MAD that you desperately try to defend.

 

[tetelestai]

Tet, circumcision was given to Abraham and all his descendants as a perpetual covenant.

Tom, I have addressed your assertion three times. All you keep doing is repeating it over and over again and not addressing any of the scripture I have given to show you that you are wrong.

Repeating the same thing over and over again does not make it true.

Circumcision of the flesh ended with the old covenant. This is the new covenant. In the new covenant circumcision is no longer of the flesh, but of the heart.

(Rom 2:29) But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Once believers today (Jew & Gentile) are circumcised of the heart, the believer becomes an heir to the promise to Abraham and becomes the Israel of God.

(Gal 3:29) And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

[tetelestai]

Tet, God promised His Twelve apostles that they would rule over the Twelve Tribes of Israel. No?

Yes, but you make the error of assuming that all 12 tribes are Jews.

Only the Israelites from the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi are Jews.

All of the Israelites from the other 10 tribes are NOT Jews.

 

[john w]

Nick I can explain to you that not all Israelites are Jews, but I can’t make you understand it.

It is you who has his mind made up about MAD and refuses to listen to what the Bible says.

You, like John W, take different posts of mine out of context and twist what I have said.

There is a difference between the house of Israel and the house of Judah. The Israelites from the tribes of the house of Israel were never Jews.

However, you don’t want to hear this because it defeats your man made MAD that you desperately try to defend.

__
"It is you who has his mind made up about MAD and refuses to listen to what the Bible says.You, like John W, take different posts of mine out of context and twist what I have said."-the British Israelist


His stock, "shut down close" he throws up like spaghetti when we quote him word for word, and pick apart his lame "argument," i.e., "Well, you see , the Bible 'refutes' you.....you refuise to listen to what it says.....you twist my words, you scripture twisters...misquote me out of context....you see, well, uh, urr....." and all that jazz.


What a mess, tangled in a ball of rope, webs, strings, yarn, neurons, fibers......

 

[TeeJay]

Tom, I have addressed your assertion three times. All you keep doing is repeating it over and over again and not addressing any of the scripture I have given to show you that you are wrong.

Repeating the same thing over and over again does not make it true.

Circumcision of the flesh ended with the old covenant. This is the new covenant. In the new covenant circumcision is no longer of the flesh, but of the heart.

It ended for Israel when God cut off Israel as a nation. When Jesus returns, He will return to Israel and not to the Body. The Body will not be here. Jesus covenant with Israel is fleshy (circumcision or the law). Jesus will take up with Israel where He left off 2,000 years ago. God's commands for circumcision and the law are perpetual.

At the time that Paul was commissioned, there wre two groups alive. Peter and James and the Twelve were the circumcision apostles. They were keeping the law AS GOD HAS COMMANDED THEM. For Peter and his followers, circumcision was not optional, nor was the Sabbath, nor was eating meat sacrificed to idols.

Some mistakenly reason that after the Cross, Israel was no longer under the Mosaic law. Nothing could be further from the truth. Recall that Christ, warning of the Tribulation of Israel, said, "Pray that your flight be not on the Sabbath." Question: Why would He warn this IF THEY WOULD NOT BE UNDER SABBATH LAW? Paul taught his disciples that they could eat meat sacrificed to idols. Jesus Christ in Revelation told one of the churches, "I have one thing against you: you eat meat sacriced to idols." Who's right, Christ or Paul. Both are right. Paul received different orders from his COMMANDER. Christ gave different orders to Israel in Revelation.

There was confusion. Peter's people would sneak into Paul's church and teach that you have to be circumcised to be saved. Paul would go postal. "O foolish Galatians, who has betwtched you? Having begun in the Spirit [under Grace], are you now made perfect by the flesh [circumcision and the law]?"

There were probably some of Peter's circumcision beliefers who wanted a transfer to Paul's outfit, for Paul warned them, "If you are circumcsised, don't become uncircumcised." This does not mean that Israel had advanced surgery to reverse circumcision of the foreskin. He meant that if you were saved under the gospel of circumcision, you were to stay there. "The gifts and the calling of god are irrevocable."

(Rom 2:29) But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

We have already seen that Abraham and all his descendants had to circumcise (Gen. 17:10). God said that circumcision is ”an everlasting covenant” (Gen. 17:9, 13). Now while the New Testament uses “circumcision… of the heart” (Rom. 2:29) as a metaphor, the Old Testament does so three times (Deut. 10:16; 30:6; Jer. 4:4). But such usage does not negate the requirement to obey God’s command to circumcise in either testament. God gave many commands to Israel as “perpetual statutes” which He withheld from the Body of Christ. While He made circumcision an “everlasting covenant” for Abraham and his descendants “throughout their generations” (Gen. 17:9, 13), He forbids circumcision to Christians today as a religious rite (Gal. 5:2-3; 3:10; Acts 15:24).

Once believers today (Jew & Gentile) are circumcised of the heart, the believer becomes an heir to the promise to Abraham and becomes the Israel of God.

For the Body of Christ under Paul's Gospel of Grace this is true. This is not true for Israel. Circumcision for Israel is a perpetual covenant.

(Gal 3:29) And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

You are close to getting it. Just separate Israel from the Body, law from grace, works from no works, circumcision from uncircumcision.

Tet, I can show you, with Scripture, that when Jesus returns to Israel, after the Rapture, that Israel will be under the Covenant of Circumcision or the law. They will not be under grace. But it will require some research and work on my part. If you have already made up your mind to reject Dispensationalism, then why should I bother. Again, one cannot not be a Dispensationalist. Throughout the Bible God has changed the rules from time to time. For example, before the Flood, we could not eat animals. After the Flood, we could eat animals. In the Garden, Adam and Eve were under Grace with no law. After they ate from the Tree, they had the knowledge of good and evil and were under the law. By the Tree is the knowledge of good and evil; by the law is the knowledge of good and evil. From Cain to Noah, God gave a Dispensation of Conscience (no law). When Noah got off the Ark, God gave a new dispensation: Put murderers to death. Then God gave another Dispensation to Abraham (Circumcision). When God cut off Israel, God gave a new dispensation to Paul (Grace). God has brought us full circle back to the Garden (a relationship based on love and not on the law. The law is still necessary to make the offense at the Tree abound. The law has two purposes and two only: Frrst it deters criminals if carried out justly and swiftly. And secondly, it convicts us of our sin and shows us our need for a Savior. There are no other purposes for the law. Israel was to be God's evangelical nation to the world. They were to take the law and miracles as their tools of the trade. "Ten men would grab the sleeve of a Jewish man and say, we want to go with you..." Why? Miracles. "These signs will follow you: You will lay hands on the sick and they shall recover. You can step on snakes, drink poison, leap tall buildings with a single bound."

When you quote me a Pauline verse I will agree with you that it applies to us. But I will not agree with you that it applied to Peter. Peter will also disagree with you. You can't take the teachings that Christ gave to His circumcision apostles and the gospel He gave to Paul and put them in a blender and blenderize them. They just don't taste good. For Scripture to make sense, you have to "rightly divice the word of truth," as Paul admonishes.

I pray that you will reason this over and accept it. It's true.

God bless, Tom from Mabank, TX

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

:rapture:

 

[tetelestai]

It ended for Israel when God cut off Israel as a nation.

You don’t understand who Israel was. God cut off Israel, but the definition of “Israel” in the first century were those that were descendents of Jacob. The only known descendents of Jacob in the first century were the Jews. The “Jews” consisted of Israelites from the tribe of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi.

When Jesus returns, He will return to Israel and not to the Body. The Body will not be here.

Not true.

Jesus will return for believers that are made up of Jew and Gentile.

Jesus covenant with Israel is fleshy (circumcision or the law).

Not even close Tom.

Jesus’ covenant (the New Covenant) was with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. Again, you make the error of assuming the NC was with the Jews only. You are wrong in claiming that all Israelites are Jews.

Jesus will take up with Israel where He left off 2,000 years ago. God's commands for circumcision and the law are perpetual.

Again, not even close Tom.

Jesus said “It is finished”. Yet you and other dispensationalists want us to believe that Jesus was a liar when He said “it is finished.”

What do you think was “finished”?

Question: Why would He warn this IF THEY WOULD NOT BE UNDER SABBATH LAW?

The same reason why the Israelites that were in the desert when God gave Moses the old covenant never saw the Promised Land (except Joshua and Caleb)

Those Israelites that were given the OC turned to idolatry, just like the Jews who were given the NC rejected their Messiah. Both generations were disciplined for 40 years.

The Jews were given the oracles of God, and represented Israel from the time of the return from Babylon to the destruction of the temple in 70AD. It was the Jews (the only known Israelites in the first century) that were disciplined by God for one generation just like the Israelites that rejected God were disciplined for one generation when they were given the OC.

IOW, one generation of Jews would have to wait 40 years.

Paul taught his disciples that they could eat meat sacrificed to idols. Jesus Christ in Revelation told one of the churches, "I have one thing against you: you eat meat sacriced to idols." Who's right, Christ or Paul. Both are right. Paul received different orders from his COMMANDER. Christ gave different orders to Israel in Revelation.

You are proof texting out of context Tom. What Paul talks about in 1 Cor is completely different than what Jesus is admonishing the church of Thyatira for. The believers at Thyatira were involved in Pagan “love feasts” with the prophetess Jezebel. These believers were participating in the Pagan feasts, having immoral sex, and eating meat was part of this Pagan feast.

Paul tells the Corinthians it was ok to eat meat sacrificed to idols as long as it didn’t make a weaker brother stumble. Paul was talking to mature believers, Revelation is referring to believers who are practicing Pagan love feasts.

There was confusion. Peter's people would sneak into Paul's church and teach that you have to be circumcised to be saved. Paul would go postal. "O foolish Galatians, who has betwtched you? Having begun in the Spirit [under Grace], are you now made perfect by the flesh [circumcision and the law]?"

The confusion centered around Judaizers. After the cross, this Christian thing was really different to the Jews who had became followers of Christ. They had a hard time letting go of what they had been taught their whole lives.

Paul understood that the law and the OC had been fulfilled by Christ and was preaching and teaching the NC. However, there were many Judaizers who didn’t quite get it, and were trying to force OC laws and customs into the NC teachings.

There were not kingdom believers that were taught by Peter and the 12, and Body believers that were taught by Paul. The confusion comes from the fact that Peter and the 12 had to preach a different message to Jews that were very familiar with the OC, compared to what Paul had to preach to Gentiles who didn’t even know about God.

We have already seen that Abraham and all his descendants had to circumcise (Gen. 17:10). God said that circumcision is ”an everlasting covenant” (Gen. 17:9, 13). Now while the New Testament uses “circumcision… of the heart” (Rom. 2:29) as a metaphor, the Old Testament does so three times (Deut. 10:16; 30:6; Jer. 4:4). But such usage does not negate the requirement to obey God’s command to circumcise in either testament. God gave many commands to Israel as “perpetual statutes” which He withheld from the Body of Christ.

Tom I have already addressed this. Every time the word “perpetual” is used in the OT that describes a statute the phrase “throughout your generations” comes afterwards.

For example, if I say I am going to light a perpetual flame for the year 2011, when will my flame end? Answer December 31, 2011. Somehow you think that because the word perpetual is used, it has to mean forever. Again, the word "perpetual" is used, but then "throughout your generations" comes afterwards, meaning the statute would only exist in a time period.

“Throughout your generations” ceased in 70AD. Read the book of Hebrews and you will see this. There is no more Jew and Gentile. Everyone is the same now. The generations of Jews and Israelites are over. Therefore the statutes and covenants are also over.

Christ nailed the statutes to the cross.

While He made circumcision an “everlasting covenant” for Abraham and his descendants “throughout their generations” (Gen. 17:9, 13), He forbids circumcision to Christians today as a religious rite (Gal. 5:2-3; 3:10; Acts 15:24).

See above, "throughout their generations" ended in 70AD.

Tet, I can show you, with Scripture, that when Jesus returns to Israel, after the Rapture, that Israel will be under the Covenant of Circumcision or the law.

Again, by saying this you make Jesus a liar. Jesus said “it is finished.”

The law was nailed to the cross

If you have already made up your mind to reject Dispensationalism, then why should I bother.

Tom, I was a dispensationalist for over 20 years. I fully understand the dispensational teachings about Israel and the church, and fully understand the mid-Acts and Acts 28 positions that claim there were two gospels.

All I ask is that you do some research and study the history of what you believe. Find out where the rapture teaching came from, find out where the antichrist teachings came from, etc. I think most would be surprised to learn the sources and the history behind the teachings that are known as dispensationailism.

IOW, take some time and read about the Catholic counter-reformation, John Nelson Darby, Jesuits, Margret McDonald, Cyrus Scofield, Lewis Sperry Chafer, Bullinger, Stam, etc.

Most dispys don’t know the history behind what they believe.

I pray that you will reason this over and accept it. It's true.

It is your opinion that it is “true”.

It is my opinion that dispensationalism is false. I feel that I can back my position with the Bible, and at the same time show you that your position comes from doctrines that were made up my men with agendas.

But thanks for the prayers, I will pray for you too, and may God show both of us the truth.

 

[TeeJay]

Tet, I give up. You do not want to admit that circumcision for Israel is forever. Israel will exist forever.

Let's see if I got it straight. Jesus Christ picked twelve retards. After the Cross it took Paul to explain that they did not have to keep the law. But I can envision Peter scratching his head. "Didn't our Lord command us to keep the law; the weightier matters without leaving the lesser undone?" And after He arose from the dead and schooled us for 40 days before his ascension, did any of you guys hear Him say that we did not have to keep the law?"

The original argument is the Rapture. You are in the Body. You are a believer (I think?). You and I will be taken out of here. Jesus will Rapture you and I out. I do not want to waste any more time with you on this. You do not want to see it.

God bless, Tom from Mabank, TX