toldailytopic: Should prostitution be universally legalized?

[aSeattleConserv]

Quote:
Originally Posted by aSeattleConserv
Ah, the Libertarian comes out of the woodwork

I posted on this thread (multiple times) before you did. I believe you are the one coming out of the "woodwork".

Yeah, I noticed. You and the atheist were like kids running to the opening of a new candy store.


Quote:
to defend one of his Party's pet projects

I don't belong to a political party. I'm not associated with a political party. I don't like political parties. I've never voted for anyone because of their political party. I've never even voted for anybody in the Libertarian Party.

Yet you quote the Libertarian Party line almost verbatim.
http://www.lp.org/platform


Quote:
(we're not talking about the legalization of drugs this time, it's the legalization of prostitution).

No kidding, Sherlock.

Yet the use of drugs almost always goes hand in hand with prostitution:
"Goldstein estimated that 40% to 85% of prostitutes were drug users."
"Silbert and colleagues interviewed 200 street prostitutes in San Francisco and reported that mean age at coital debut was 13.5 years, 16.1 years for prostitution debut (13 years for juvenile prostitutes and 18 for adults), and 16.9 years for entry into regular prostitution activity (Silbert & Pines, 1982). They subsequently reported that nearly all (95%) in their sample provided histories of illicit drug use."
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2372/is_4_35/ai_53390350/


Quote:
So tell me Mr. "Christian" Libertarian, where does the Bible stand on out of wedlock sex?

It's sinful. Abominable. People who do it deserve death, along with any other sin they have committed in their actions or thoughts.

Yet man should help pave the way to eternal damnation by legalizing abominable sins?

Quote:
From a secular viewpoint, tell us about the amount of criminal activity (drugs, assault, robbery) that goes with the prostitution lifestyle.

I'm not much of an expert on it. All I really know about it is what I saw in Taken. Oh, what a great movie. It seems like the government was a huge hindrance to the cause of justice in that movie, too.

All you know about prostitution is what you saw in a fictional Hollywood movie? (and this makes you an expert on the subject, how?).

I don't think I've ever even seen a prostitute before in my life, though, so I can't say.

Here's a picture of a few, followed by some names to go with the faces (yes Newman, they all have names and faces).
http://www.swop-tucson.org/Victims.jpg
http://karisable.com/grklistcomp.htm


Quote:
How about the dissolution of the family unit?

I'm sure it hurts families big time.

But there will be some victims along the way to true liberty, right Newman?

Quote:
How many broken homes are due to prostitution?
How many women (and children) are forced into the immoral lifestyle?
How about those that aren't satisfied with government run prostitution and want some "illegal action"?

I give up. How many?

Let me put it this way Newman: if you were to marry and father a baby girl, would her turning to a life of prostitution be "one too many"?


Quote:
Stick with the laws of God as seen in Scripture. They're 100% reliable and a lot less complicated.

Amen.

Yet you don't.

Uh, Seattle, would you do me a favor and respond to what I wrote? As in actually answering the questions? That is how these things usually work.

I made the case against prostitution, what else is there to talk about other than how it cheapens the beautiful act of lovemaking between husband and wife?

 

[Traditio]

"Goldstein estimated that 40% to 85% of prostitutes were drug users."

Who is Goldstein, why should I care what he's estimating, and why is the range so large?

"Silbert and colleagues interviewed 200 street prostitutes in San Francisco and reported that mean age at coital debut was 13.5 years, 16.1 years for prostitution debut (13 years for juvenile prostitutes and 18 for adults), and 16.9 years for entry into regular prostitution activity (Silbert & Pines, 1982). They subsequently reported that nearly all (95%) in their sample provided histories of illicit drug use."

Why should I believe that the information given by these 200 street prostitutes is representative of the entire prostitute population? Also, why should I believe that these numbers would hold true under a state of legal prostitution?

Yet man should help pave the way to eternal damnation by legalizing abominable sins?

So you think that no sin should be legal, no "abdominable" sin should be legal, or only certain "abominable" sins should be legal? Do or have you ever commited any of these sins?

Here's a picture of a few, followed by some names to go with the faces (yes Newman, they all have names and faces).
http://www.swop-tucson.org/Victims.jpg
http://karisable.com/grklistcomp.htm

But is this representative of the entire prostitute population? Is it representative of what it would be like in a state of legality? Ponder, pal, that the prostitutes who persistently are prostituting presently are pandering their precious possessions when there are legal prohibitions against paid prostitution.

Quote:
Stick with the laws of God as seen in Scripture. They're 100% reliable and a lot less complicated.

Yet you don't.

Do you eat pork? Shellfish?

I made the case against prostitution, what else is there to talk about other than how it cheapens the beautiful act of lovemaking between husband and wife?

Law.

 

[Nydhogg]

1. Lol at Lighthouse.

2. I find myself divided on the matter:

On the one hand, I find myself wondering whether or not a woman should be imprisoned for prostitution. Does the prostitute infringe against anyone's life, liberty, or property? Well, it doesn't seem like it. Therefore, it ought not be illegal.

On the other hand, suppose that it were legal. Many problems follow:

a. If prostitution is legal, then either it will be taxed or exempt from taxation. If prostitution is tax exempt, then the government gives the appearance of endorsing prostitution. If prostitution is taxed, then that's even worse, because that means that public funds are coming from prostitution.

b. If prostitution is legal, then that means that there can be a prostitution business contract, precisely in the same way that I can enter into a contract with someone to buy his car. That means that courts would have to compel buyers of prostitutes to pay up, and likewise, to compel prostitutes either to make good on their offers or give a refund. The thought of a prostitution-related civil action being heard in court strikes me as ridiculous.

c. Related to b, if prostitution is legal, then that means that sexuality becomes a viable part of a business relationship. We see something like this in the case of abortion. Since abortion is legal, health care providers (except in certain cases) are expected to provide them at least in certain cases. Thus, if a nurse refuses to aid in performing an abortion, there's a good chance that she can be fired. Well...if sex becomes an acceptable part of a business contract, then that means that employers can require it as a condition of employment. This means that if hot secretary x refuses to give into her employer's sexual advances, she can be fired. This also means that some very serious hiring discrimination could occur. If the employer is a single man who, in addition to wanting a secretary, wants some sex on the side...I'm not getting that job.

d. I'm seeing problems with respect to offspring. If I were to buy a prostitute, have sex with her, and get her pregnant...well...what would be the legal ramifications? Would I have to pay child support? Would I be responsible for the well being of the child? When you add the fact that, not only I, but several other men (and possibly women) bought that prostitute in the same time frame that the prostitute conceived the child, things become even more legally bizarre.

There are, I am sure, many, many other legal problems, but these are the ones that immediately come to mind.

I'll address your problems in short:

a) Taxed under general income for the prostitute. No questions asked.
b) Courts can compel a prostitute to give a refund, but not to perform the act.
c) That's indeed a problem. Still, many countries have legalized prostitution and it is not a scenario that happens, like, ever.
d) If you sired it, you pay for it. Unless, that is, the woman waives that right prior to the exchange of goods and services.

 

[Traditio]

a) Taxed under general income for the prostitute. No questions asked.

Maybe, but that still makes me really, really uncomfortable. :noid:

b) Courts can compel a prostitute to give a refund, but not to perform the act.

Yeah, I don't like the idea of prostitutes going to court...period. I don't think that there can be a valid "sex contract," as it were. I mean, I think this is where my own antinomy arises. On the one hand, I don't view it as a social crime. There's no victim. On the other hand, I don't see it as a legal business exchange. I don't think that it should be considered enforcable, since only morally permitted acts can be enforced by law.

c) That's indeed a problem. Still, many countries have legalized prostitution and it is not a scenario that happens, like, ever.

Maybe, but I don't like the idea even of it arising as a possibility.

d) If you sired it, you pay for it. Unless, that is, the woman waives that right prior to the exchange of goods and services.

Does the state pay for paternity tests? lain:

 

[Nydhogg]

Ah, the Libertarian comes out of the woodwork to defend one of his Party's pet projects (we're not talking about the legalization of drugs this time, it's the legalization of prostitution).

So tell me Mr. "Christian" Libertarian, where does the Bible stand on out of wedlock sex?

From a secular viewpoint, tell us about the amount of criminal activity (drugs, assault, robbery) that goes with the prostitution lifestyle. How about the dissolution of the family unit? How many broken homes are due to prostitution? How many women (and children) are forced into the immoral lifestyle? How about those that aren't satisfied with government run prostitution and want some "illegal action"?

Stick with the laws of God as seen in Scripture. They're 100% reliable and a lot less complicated.

The manifestly unjust, abominable, repulsive, bizarre, primitive, cruel, prudish, nonsensical and retarded laws of Scripture should not be forced on human beings, EVER.

Drugs are other conspicuous noncrime that a fascist State has chosen to punish, out of the prudishness of retards like you.

People, not "society", not "god", not "the State", own their own lives. Others using violence to rule them IS an abomination. The State IS an abomination.

 

[Nydhogg]

Maybe, but that still makes me really, really uncomfortable. :noid:



Yeah, I don't like the idea of prostitutes going to court...period. I don't think that there can be a valid "sex contract," as it were. I mean, I think this is where my own antiomy arises. On the one hand, I don't view it as a social crime. There's no victim. On the other hand, I don't see it as a legal business exchange. I don't think that it should be considered enforcable, since only morally permitted acts can be enforced by law.



Maybe, but I don't like the idea even of it arising as a possibility.



Does the state pay for paternity tests? lain:

I take it that you support decriminalization but not full-blown legalization, then. You say there's no grounds for making it a crime. Then criminalizing it is deeply wrong.

 

[Newman]

Yeah, I noticed. You and the atheist were like kids running to the opening of a new candy store.

Don't get me wrong, asc. I know it looks like I'm defending sinful behavior. I've said it before and I'll say it again: the government isn't just, caring, efficient, effective, consistent, or responsive, and for that reason, among a few others, it isn't equipped to distribute punishments on God's behalf.

Yet you quote the Libertarian Party line almost verbatim.
http://www.lp.org/platform

You quote Adam Sutler almost verbatim.

Where do I quote the Libertarian Party "almost verbatim"?

Yet the use of drugs almost always goes hand in hand with prostitution:
"Goldstein estimated that 40% to 85% of prostitutes were drug users."
"Silbert and colleagues interviewed 200 street prostitutes in San Francisco and reported that mean age at coital debut was 13.5 years, 16.1 years for prostitution debut (13 years for juvenile prostitutes and 18 for adults), and 16.9 years for entry into regular prostitution activity (Silbert & Pines, 1982). They subsequently reported that nearly all (95%) in their sample provided histories of illicit drug use."
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2372/is_4_35/ai_53390350/

I don't think I've said anything that contradicts this.

Yet man should help pave the way to eternal damnation by legalizing abominable sins?

Do you know anything about the effects of prohibition? Many would argue that the mere prohibition of the behavior is what causes it to get lumped into other 'criminal' activity, like drugs. It also makes the act more dangerous, not only as a business transaction (theft, rape, blackmail), but as a, (ahem), fluid transaction (disease, etc.).

So, no, I don't think legalizing anything helps pave the way to eternal damnation for whatever is legalized. The sin is committed by individuals. Individuals are responsible for their own actions. Communities are not responsible for busting down doors and killing people just because they are doing something the community frowns upon.

All you know about prostitution is what you saw in a fictional Hollywood movie? (and this makes you an expert on the subject, how?).

Uhh, if you read carefully, I stated that I'm not an expert on the matter.

Here's a picture of a few, followed by some names to go with the faces (yes Newman, they all have names and faces).
http://www.swop-tucson.org/Victims.jpg
http://karisable.com/grklistcomp.htm

No thanks. Didn't I tell you that I don't click on your links?

But there will be some victims along the way to true liberty, right Newman?

We are all "victims" to our own sins already. I'm just putting responsibility and authority to deal with sin where it goes. You say that you have the final authority on dealing God's justice. I say you don't.

Let me put it this way Newman: if you were to marry and father a baby girl, would her turning to a life of prostitution be "one too many"?

Any girl turning to prostitution is one too many.

Yet you don't.

What have I said that's against the plain meaning of the text?

I made the case against prostitution, what else is there to talk about other than how it cheapens the beautiful act of lovemaking between husband and wife?

Humor me. I humor you all the time.

Are you a police officer?

 

[MaryContrary]

I'll stand with God on this issue and I want to challenge other Christians who do not to explain why they do not.
Deuteronomy 22:22-29, Exodus 22:16-17

 

[Granite]

Yep. It's my right, right?

...to not honor what the people decide when you say the people should vote and decide on something? Sure, knock yourself out. It's your right. It's your schizophrenic inconsistent right to ask for one thing and then complain about the results if you don't like them. You bet.

So we do have a lottery and a casino and riverboat casinos and a horse track (or working toward it). So I was right to vote against an innocent lottery on the premise that it opens the gate for the horses to trot right on in with all the rest.

Oh, yes. Heaven forbid people have fun. Ever. Perhaps you'd favor taxes on...square dancing. Or something.:think:

 

[Nydhogg]

I'll stand with God on this issue and I want to challenge other Christians who do not to explain why they do not.
Deuteronomy 22:22-29, Exodus 22:16-17

The Law never applied (and should never apply) to gentiles outside the Land of Israel. Enforcing it on secular Americans would be utterly Pharisaic and possibly even sinful.

 

[Gurucam]

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Yes and made affordable, possibly subsidized absolutely by governments and legitimized by citizens. This would seriously reduce stress levels in the society and on the level of individuals the reduction of stress levels will bring out hidden creativity . . . . i.e. bring such individuals and their societies closer to God and His kingdom of heaven.

People are counteracting diseases and dying prematurely because of the lack of tactile stimulation . . . i.e. from the lack of being touched.

People including older people wither, get increased diseased and die prematurely because of lack of being touches in sexual and other ways.

Prostitution must be a art which must be expressed out of urgings of love. Prostitutes cannot be the profession of 'dead within' people who cannot bring love to bear on their mission.

This is not about having fun.

Love making with or without sex is an essential aspect of creating heaven on earth. It is an essential part of a holistic heavenly life on earth.

At any event lots of women seem to routinely prostitute their sexual favors. Many do exchange these for the contract of marriages. Other seem to exchange or sell these or exchange these for their material need and/or perceived material security.

Among some women (even religious women), every thing is already for sale under socially and religiously acceptable conditions, like marriage etc.. Yet they and their churches pretend that it is not so.

Some hold that one should not have sex outside of marriage. Fact is that sex is the most profound expression of urgings of love which has arisen and is sustained within the hearts of couples for each other. It has absolutely no bearing on marriage.

Marriage are contractual arrangement between people who do not know God i.e. those who have never loved. Where urgings of love can and do guide people marriages are done away with. Urgings of love which arises and are sustained naturally and spontaneously within the hearts of children of God, is the only glue that is needed for their relationships.

The naked Truth is that children who are brought forth though normal physical sex which results from an expression of urgings of love which has arisen and are sustained naturally and spontaneously within the hearts of such couples are children of God. Marital status is of absolutely no consequence.

On the other hand, children who are brought forth out of a sexual act which is done only out of physical urgings are children of the flesh even if the couple is in the most upright marriage.

Love's urgings is the only thing that God use to put and keep things together.

Sex which does not bring forth a child, period, is far better than sex which brings forth a child of the flesh. Sex which brings forth a child of God is the absolute act. Couples, at any forum (married or not), who bring forth a child of God is glorified by God. This is the gist of Romans: 7.

 

[Newman]

I'll stand with God on this issue and I want to challenge other Christians who do not to explain why they do not.
Deuteronomy 22:22-29, Exodus 22:16-17

Alright I'm not arguing with you here, just asking a question: Should the US Government enforce other parts of Deuteronomy? Exodus? Levitical law?

 

[Granite]

Alright I'm not arguing with you here, just asking a question: Should the US Government enforce other parts of Deuteronomy? Exodus? Levitical law?

And here.

We.

Go.

Is there anything even in there that forbids prostitution? And don't give me that "fornication is bad" nonsense; I'm asking if any segment of biblical law specifically prohibits hooking.

 

[bybee]

Legalized prostitution would include both male and female practitioners .
Attractive young persons could choose to see themselves with Uncle Sam as their pimp.
Side effects of multiple partners remain essentially the same:
1. Unwanted pregnancy leading to possibilitiy of abortion or children raised in a
brothel environment or diseased babies or abandoned babies.
2. Sexually transmitted diseases cannot be controlled. A whore can be examined by a doctor before symptoms appear and be declared "disease free" during its incubation period.
3. Whores are vulnerable to abuse. Many high school seniors are over 18 years of age. They are targets for abuse by classmates. But, it is the emotional abuse of being outside the Pale of society which is most harmful.

I see attractive young women today who have become involved with celebrities and they do "kiss and tell". They make a very lucrative business out of telling the story of their escapades real or imagined.

On the other hand, if people wish to pay for sex they will do so, regardless of it's legality.
When a married person has sex with someone else he/she brings every sex partner the other person has had into the marriage bed.
This is a marriage bed which has been stripped of its sanctity. It is crowded with the ghosts of all past encounters.

 

[bybee]

Well!

Well!

Yes and made affordable, possibly subsidized absolutely by governments and legitimized by citizens.

People are counteracting diseases and dying prematurely because of the lack of tactile stimulation . . . i.e. from the lack of being touched.

Prostitution must be a art which must be expressed out of urgings of love. Prostitutes cannot be the profession of 'dead within' people who cannot bring love to bear on their mission.

This is not about having fun.

Love making with or without sex is an essential aspect of creating heaven on earth. It is an essential part of a holistic heavenly life on earth.

At any event lots of women seem to routinely prostitute their lovemaking and sexual favors. Many do exchange these for the contract of marriages. Other seem to exchange or sell these or exchange these for their material need and/or perceived material security.

Among some women (even religious women), every thing is already for sale under socially and religiously acceptable conditions, like marriage etc.. Yet they and their churches pretend that it is not so.

Some hold that one should not have sex outside of marriage. Fact is that sex is the most profound expression of urgings of love which has arisen and is sustained within the heats of couples for each other. It has absolutely no bearing on marriage.

Marriage are contractual arrangement between people who do not know God i.e. those who have never loved. Where urgings of love can and do guide people marriages are done away with. Urgings of love which arises and are sustained naturally and spontaneously within the hearts of children of God, is the only glue that is needed for their relationships.

The naked Truth is that children who are brought forth though normal physical sex which results from an expression of urgings of love which has arisen and are sustained naturally and spontaneously within the hearts of such couples are children of God. Marital status is of absolutely no consequence.

On the other hand, children who are brought forth out of a sexual act which is done only out of physical urgings are children of the flesh even if the couple is in the most upright marriage.

Love's urgings is the only thing that God use to put and keep things together.

Who creates the market for these services? Can love be bought or sold?
A human being is a soul within a body which functions within a society. Societies have laws. Because man is strong and aggressive woman and children need protection. Marriage is a method of protecting women and children. And in a good marriage, a man finds completion.

 

[Nydhogg]

Because man is strong and aggressive woman and children need protection.

Apparently you have not met my woman. :crackup:

She's a better shot than I am, and has twice my agility. I double her strength, but her odds of killing me in a deathmatch would be better than 50%.

 

[Quincy]

1. Unwanted pregnancy leading to possibilitiy of abortion or children raised in a
brothel environment or diseased babies or abandoned babies.
2. Sexually transmitted diseases cannot be controlled. A whore can be examined by a doctor before symptoms appear and be declared "disease free" during its incubation period.
3. Whores are vulnerable to abuse.

:thumb: I totally agree. Plus, at least from what I have seen, prostitution is generally tied to more serious crimes. Things like underage child rings to hardcore narcotics. At least that is what seems to actually be prosecuted.

If we legalize prostitution, don't we have to create infrastructure to police these elements out of it? Will the money it generates actually offset the price of legalizing it? Are we just going to assume that people currently involved with prostitution that are doing these more serious crimes, aren't going to fall to recidivism? You guys can't seriously believe it won't be dubious at best. There will be no good in this for society.

 

[bybee]

Well,

Well,

Apparently you have not met my woman. :crackup:

She's a better shot than I am, and has twice my agility. I double her strength, but her odds of killing me in a deathmatch would be better than 50%.

But, she wants you to live. She loves you and wants to live side by side with you. Her abilities as a "sharpshooter" simply enhance your safety.

 

[Nydhogg]

That's the point. Woe betide whoever assaults my home!

There's two shooters guarding the castle

 

[MaryContrary]

The Law never applied (and should never apply) to gentiles outside the Land of Israel. Enforcing it on secular Americans would be utterly Pharisaic and possibly even sinful.

I don't see anything forbidding any other nation from adopting any part of the Mosaic Law at all. And thank God, since many of our current laws appear in the Mosaic Law. Laws against murder being the obvious example.

Certainly the Mosaic Law was not written for the United States of America. Or any other nation but Israel herself. Has nothing to do with whether or not any other nation can see wisdom in any part of it and apply it themselves. Just as many, many nations have done, ours included.

Alright I'm not arguing with you here, just asking a question: Should the US Government enforce other parts of Deuteronomy? Exodus? Levitical law?

Sure. Why not? Depends entirely, one would hope, on whether the particular law or principle was just and effective.

Understand that, as a Christian, free from the law for righteousness, I don't have to care and really shouldn't care about any spiritual aspect of these laws. There no salvation or damnation aspect to any of this. Solely whether the law or legal principle is wise. I look here first because these laws were written and given by God Himself and so are a reliable source for such.