toldailytopic: Santorum shocks everyone and vaults to the front of the race. Thoughts

[The Barbarian]

This is going to disturb you, then. About 20% of the women having abortions are evangelical Christians.
http://www.guttmacher.org/media/nr/prabort2.html

 

[Granite]

Are you saying that most abortions are had by christian women? Most of the United States claims that it is christian. There is only a few that say they are atheists or muslims or jewish or bahai etc. These people call themselves christian because that is how they were raised. How many of these "christians" attend church or read the bible or ever even have a stray thought concerning God? I would say very few. I would say that the number of abortions on women who are more than nominal christians is not as high as 85%.

Elo (and the Barbarian) have stats on their side, though, voltaire, and you only have your gut. To be truly pro-life, Christians better lead by example.

 

[sky.]

I Was Born Free

 

[Delmar]

The life and death of human fetuses is not a "states issue". It's a national moral issue. We must decide as a nation what we believe is appropriate, and make it the law of the land. Just as we did with slavery, women's rights, and other such major moral issues.

The way to achieve this is to discuss and debate the issue until a consensus is finally achieved. Not by trying to stack the courts and forcing the other side to comply with our demands.

:first: Post of the Day

 

[drbrumley]

:first: Post of the Day

Good choice. But yet everyone still is against Ron on this issue. Amazing.

 

[kmoney]

Perry is staying because he has endless oil money behind him. He's the Texas oil toady candidate ... a 'Bush replacement'. Anything might happen, yet, and that's why Perry will stick it out for a bit. One big screw up by Romney and Perry is right back in the running (provided he doesn't screw up again, himself). The one's who quit will quit because they can't afford to keep going.

Yeah, that's what the analysts were saying too. Not necessarily the money part, but that anything could happen and that Perry can still be hopeful. But I think the leaders will have to make some pretty bad mistakes for Perry to gain any ground.

 

[The Barbarian]

Good choice. But yet everyone still is against Ron on this issue. Amazing.

I've always been with Paul on that one.

 

[kmoney]

Are you saying that most abortions are had by christian women? Most of the United States claims that it is christian. There is only a few that say they are atheists or muslims or jewish or bahai etc. These people call themselves christian because that is how they were raised. How many of these "christians" attend church or read the bible or ever even have a stray thought concerning God? I would say very few. I would say that the number of abortions on women who are more than nominal christians is not as high as 85%.

Yeah, lots of people in the US call themselves Christians but what does that really mean to them? And what influence does it have on their lives?

I don't want to get into the whole "well they aren't 'real' Christians argument, but that stat does sound fishy.

 

[The Barbarian]

No true Scotsman, um?

 

[Delmar]

Good choice. But yet everyone still is against Ron on this issue. Amazing.

I just don't get why Paul is against the use of the equal protection clause.

 

[kmoney]

No true Scotsman, um?

:nono:

 

[drbrumley]

I just don't get why Paul is against the use of the equal protection clause.

Because if you actually read the 14th amendment:

Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws. Section 2. Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the Executive and Judicial officers of a State, or the members of the Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State. Section 3. No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may, by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability. Section 4. The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void. Section 5. The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.

You will see EXACTLY what it says. Read Section 1 very carefully. All persons what? As much as you and I agree 100% with each other that a fetus is a person, a fetus is not born. I'm sorry but that is a fact. So Ron Paul is EXACTLY right. The 14th amendment was not made to cancel out the 10th amendment. That is a straight truth. Life begins at conception is accurate, but to give 14th amendment protections to a fetus is dumb. This would create chaos within the court systems. We better make sure the I's are dotted and the T's crossed. I say nullify the 14th to include provisions for the unborn, and you and I will stand side by side. Until then. You are letting emotion cloud your judgement on this issue.

 

[WizardofOz]

Because if you actually read the 14th amendment:

Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws. Section 2. Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the Executive and Judicial officers of a State, or the members of the Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State. Section 3. No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may, by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability. Section 4. The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void. Section 5. The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.

You will see EXACTLY what it says. Read Section 1 very carefully. All persons what? As much as you and I agree 100% with each other that a fetus is a person, a fetus is not born. I'm sorry but that is a fact. So Ron Paul is EXACTLY right. The 14th amendment was not made to cancel out the 10th amendment. That is a straight truth. Life begins at conception is accurate, but to give 14th amendment protections to a fetus is dumb. This would create chaos within the court systems. We better make sure the I's are dotted and the T's crossed. I say nullify the 14th to include provisions for the unborn, and you and I will stand side by side. Until then. You are letting emotion cloud your judgement on this issue.

:first:

 

[aCultureWarrior]

Because if you actually read the 14th amendment:

Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.

Keep in mind Delmar, like the mindless Libertarians that they are, both Paulbots that have copied and pasted the 14th Amendment haven't taken into consideration the mindset of the Founding Fathers and the legislators who amended the Constitution on July 9, 1868, when it came to the subject of abortion: "Were there laws against abortion in the early American colonies? The colonies inherited English Common Law and largely operated under it until well into the 19th century. English Common Law forbade abortion. Abortion prior to quickening was a misdemeanor. Abortion after quickening (feeling life) was a felony. This bifid punishment, inherited from earlier ecclesiastic law, stemmed from earlier "knowledge" regarding human reproduction. When did this change? In the early 1800s it was discovered that human life did not begin when she "felt life," but rather at fertilization. As a direct result of this, the British Parliament in 1869 passed the "Offenses Against the Persons Act," eliminating the above bifid punishment and dropping the felony punishment back to fertilization. One by one, across the middle years of the 19th century, every then-present state passed its own law against abortion. By 1860, 85% of the population lived in states which had prohibited abortion with new laws. These laws, preceding and following the British example, moved the felony punishment from quickening back to conception." http://www.abortionfacts.com/online_books/love_them_both/why_cant_we_love_them_both_7.asp

 

[WizardofOz]

"Were there laws against abortion in the early American colonies?

:hammer: In the colonies. The federal government never has and never will outlaw abortion nationwide. Return it to the states as is was from the period you quoted up until Roe.

Thank you for arguing in Paul's favor (again).

 

[drbrumley]

Acw, you copy and paste stuff of which you have no understanding you mindless little pervert.

Sent from my LS670 using Tapatalk

 

[aCultureWarrior]

:hammer: In the colonies. The federal government never has and never will outlaw abortion nationwide. Return it to the states as is was from the period you quoted up until Roe.

Thank you for arguing in Paul's favor (again).

Poor Ralphie, he doesn't understand that the "colonies" consisted of the same people that drafted the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, and various other documents of our once Christian nation.

If the people of the various colonies had even talked about legalizing the murder of the unborn, our Christian forefathers would have had the federal government pass a law against it.

 

[aCultureWarrior]

Acw, you copy and paste stuff of which you have no understanding you mindless little pervert.

Sent from my LS670 using Tapatalk

Ground Control to Tapatalk LS670:

I thought you had me on "ignore"?

 

[drbrumley]

Poor Ralphie, he doesn't understand that the "colonies" consisted of the same people that drafted the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, and various other documents of our once Christian nation.

If the people of the various colonies had even talked about legalizing the murder of the unborn, our Christian forefathers would have had the federal government pass a law against it.

Wow, more inconsistency from our resident facsist.

Sent from my LS670 using Tapatalk

 

[WizardofOz]

If the people of the various colonies had even talked about legalizing the murder of the unborn, our Christian forefathers would have had the federal government pass a law against it.

Conjecture, pure and simple.