toldailytopic: Romney vs Obama round one. Thoughts? Assessment?

[drbrumley]

I thought it, and you, were important enough for me to take some time to write it out.

My response is here

And I appreciate the courtesy.

 

[glorydaz]

Mitt Romney annihilated President Obama.

In 50 years, Americans will be longing for another Mitt Romney as President --he's going to be that good.


Daniel

I agree. I've always like Romney. He's really an efficiency expert unlike the current occupier of the WH. And, he actually does know how to get something done working with the houses of Congress rather than by "executive order."

 

[Buzz]

"Obama arrived in Denver at 2 PM today — Just a few hours before the debate started... When you go to 5,000 feet and you only have a few hours to adjust -- I don't know," Al Gore

lain:

 

[drbrumley]

The verse in question is Romans 3:8

"For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?

And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.

What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin"

Paul has established from chapters 1 & 2 that all men have gone astray from worshiping God and serving themselves. We are all proven to be sinners either through the Law given to the Jew or the law written on the hearts of the Gentiles. We are all "evil" and need a Savior. David was king, yet did evil. All men fall short of the glory of God. Many of us are authorities as parents, yet none of us are perfect. No one is free from doing evil. You will not find a man who does not do evil.

Ecclesiastes 7:20
"Indeed, there is not a righteous man on earth who continually does good and who never sins."

God does not tell us to vote or not to vote for those in authority, He only says that He has established authorities for our good to deter evil behavior. For this reason, as a citizen of this country in order to see to it that an authority is in place who will do more good than evil I am in a position to cast my vote to hopefully see that happen. Those who have that choice and don't use it are "doing evil" by allowing those who do more evil than good, or by voting for those who do more evil than good.

Now back to the verse that has been taken out of context.

"Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision? Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God. What then? If some did not believe, their unbelief will not nullify the faithfulness of God, will it? May it never be! Rather, let God be found true, though every man be found a liar, as it is written,

“That You may be justified in Your words,
And prevail when You are judged.”


Paul is speaking about how the Jews have not believed God. Just because they do not believe Him, does in no way nullify what God said to them. God's promises are true, no matter what men believe or say about Him. By what we say we believe (our words), we are either justified or condemned. Matt 12:37

Our unrighteousness proves the righteousness of God. Our evil proves that God is good. This begs the question:

But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? The God who inflicts wrath is not unrighteous, is He? (I am speaking in human terms.) May it never be! For otherwise, how will God judge the world?

God is justified in judging the world, because we are all found to be unrighteous. God's wrath was therefore poured out on His Son for all our unrighteousness (as Paul explains in the next 2 chapters).

But if through my lie the truth of God abounded to His glory, why am I also still being judged as a sinner?

God is glorified by our unrighteousness. Yet, He is justified in judging all of us as sinners, for we all have fallen short, and do fall short.

And why not say (as we are slanderously reported and as some claim that we say), “Let us do evil that good may come”? Their condemnation is just.

Paul's point is this and only this:

First of all, he was simply being accused of making this statement. If Paul was stating that we should go do evil that good will result, then their condemnation would be just. Paul is not saying we should do evil that good can come. Paul is saying that God is good and we are evil.

If you cannot with a clear conscience vote for someone who does evil, then you cannot vote for anyone. In fact, you cannot hire anyone to work for your company. Nor can you marry anyone.

these verses have nothing to do with showing support for any man, because there is only ONE Man who qualifies that does no evil.

The context again is that men are unrighteous and God is righteous. All men, either jew or Gentile are on the same level - sinners who need a Savior.

Paul continues:

What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; as it is written,

“There is none righteous, not even one;
There is none who understands,
There is none who seeks for God;
All have turned aside, together they have become useless;
There is none who does good,
There is not even one.”
Their throat is an open grave,
With their tongues they keep deceiving,”
“The poison of asps is under their lips”;
Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness”;
Their feet are swift to shed blood,
Destruction and misery are in their paths,
And the path of peace they have not known.”
“There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Christians also have the option of abstaining "from all appearance of evil" (1 Thessalonians 5:22), i.e. not voting.

 

[Buzz]

Latest opinion poll about last night's debate...

 

[Nick M]

Don't get me wrong, local elections are where we need to be. This National stuff, it's plain nutty.

Don't tell me you didn't vote for Howard Phillips. I did.

 

[Buzz]

Christians also have the option of abstaining "from all appearance of evil" (1 Thessalonians 5:22), i.e. not voting.

It's obvious to me that if I take the time to share with you the context of that verse, you'll just continue looking for some other single verse to justify what you have already settled in your mind to do. :sigh:

 

[drbrumley]

Don't tell me you didn't vote for Howard Phillips. I did.

I don't think I was old enough to vote for Phillips yet. When was that?

I voted for Bush Sr once (88), Perot once (92), think I sat out 96 between Dole and Clinton, 2000 voted for Bush Jr. then I got upset with the whole thing. I might have voted for Bush again in '04 but that was a vote against Kerry and not for Bush. Then I saw the error of my principles in 08 and voted Chuck Baldwin.

 

[IMJerusha]

Throughout the active campaigning, I have felt that Romney was losing ground because he wasn't being detailed enough about his economic plans and Medicare. He turned a lot of that around with last night's debate. Romney needs to continue showing America his business savvy because that is what it's going to take to turn this nation around economically. It was humorous to see just how comfortable Romney was regarding monetary strategies, facts and figures. I appreciated Romney's reference to Hitler's "big lie" when it came to describing Obama's tendencies for repetition of complete falsehoods and arrogance in his belief that the American public is stupid enough to continually suck those falsehoods up. It was important for Romney to show that he couldn't be cowed by either Obama or the press and I believe he accomplished that handily. Obama spoke out of both sides of his mouth talking about cutting government spending and taxes on one hand and adding many more teaching positions on the other hand. In order to accomplish that, he would have to either add taxes or increase government spending or both. He's just trying to appeal to teachers, teacher unions and folks wanting their kids to have better than they had. That would just be another squeeze on upper lower to middle income families.

I believe both men need to get a handle on the fact that a huge majority of small business owners are typically under 5 employees. Many, in fact, are sole proprietorships earning much less than 100K per annum, primarily due to the fact that so many larger businesses cut back employees just to survive, laying off hundreds of senior employees too young to retire but with enough business experience to contract out. Romney seems to understand that a little better than Obama. So far, Obama hasn't been doing anything to help small businesses grow. As a matter of fact, most banks refuse to assist small business owners in obtaining SBA loans and Obama isn't doing much of anything about that. Banks may tout the fact that they process SBA lending but when push comes to shove, they really don't want to go that route. They have little confidence in our government's ability to actually back those loans down the road courtesy of Obama's fiscal irresponsibility.

It warmed the cockles of my heart to see Obama's nose in a more vertical position for a change and Romney was responsible for that. I hope he kicks Obama's tuchus clean back to his million dollar home on Lakeshore Drive!....something a lot of folks forget about when pointing fingers at Romney's money.

BTW, Romney was right; almost all of the hospitals in ours and the three counties surrounding us have stopped taking Medicare patients. In Southern Ohio, that's the kiss of death for people. Ohio had better wake up and take notice!

 

[Nick M]

Phillips was on in 96 and 2000.

 

[drbrumley]

It's obvious to me that if I take the time to share with you the context of that verse, you'll just continue looking for some other single verse to justify what you have already settled in your mind to do. :sigh:

Yes, Paul said he was being accused of believing in a philosophy of "let us do evil that good may come" which is basically the same thing as keep on sinning that grace may abound. And yes, God forbid!

Simply put, a vote for the lesser of two evils is still evil. But you don't sin, so you have nothing to worry about. Your making a strategic calculation. I'm done with strategy.

 

[drbrumley]

Phillips was on in 96 and 2000.

That's right, I remember now. I liked Phillips, but just like Buzz here, I thought my vote actually meant something at the time.

 

[Buzz]

Yes, Paul said he was being accused of believing in a philosophy of "let us do evil that good may come" which is basically the same thing as keep on sinning that grace may abound.

You neither read my post, nor have you read the Bible so as to understand it.

Simply put, a vote for the lesser of two evils is still evil.

A vote for any man is the lessor of two evils. Eating at Chick-fila instead of Taco Bell is the lessor of two evils. Shopping at Hobby Lobby instead of JC Pennys is the lessor of two evils. Marrying some girl in church instead of Lady Gaga is the lessor of two evils... and so on.

But you don't sin, so you have nothing to worry about.

Brilliant comeback. You just stated that hoping that Eric would back-you up. You know better, but you don't give a crap about the truth.

You are hypocrites - claiming you don't do evil, and then accusing me of saying I claim I don't sin. What a joke.

 

[drbrumley]

You neither read my post, nor have you read the Bible so as to understand it.

I beg to differ.

A vote for any man is the lessor of two evils.

Agreed. But we are not talking about men, but policies. Policies that effect you and I every single day

Eating at Chick-fila instead of Taco Bell is the lessor of two evils.

It is? How so?

Shopping at Hobby Lobby instead of JC Pennys is the lessor of two evils.

It is? How so?

Marrying some girl in church instead of Lady Gaga is the lessor of two evils... and so on.

You lost me there.

Brilliant comeback. You just stated that hoping that Eric would back-you up.

I don't need Eric to back me up Dave.

You know better, but you don't give a crap about the truth.

Then present your argument better. Your just babbling on.

You are hypocrites - claiming you don't do evil, and then accusing me of saying I claim I don't sin. What a joke.

Oh Baloney! That has been your claim in the past, 1 John, remember. Of which I agree, and now your blasting me for it. Have a change of heart now did we?

 

[Angel4Truth]

Remember when Mike Tyson first came on to the boxing scene? He would win fights in the first round before people even got to their seats. That's what last night was like, and I don't even like Mitt Romney but that was a flat out slaughter of monumental proportions.

My thoughts exactly.

 

[Nick M]

First of all, he was simply being accused of making this statement. If Paul was stating that we should go do evil that good will result, then their condemnation would be just. Paul is not saying we should do evil that good can come. Paul is saying that God is good and we are evil.

That isn't taken out of context. His question is a rhetorical no. It can be used as an example, since that is what Paul is doing. Jesus in Matthew 20 used an example to explain the Kingdom of God. To use it for an economic lesson would technically be out of context, but the point can still be made with it. He is using the example because the example is true. A man can do with his property as he wants. You can in fact take the lesson on the side as true even though it is about his Kingdom.

 

[drbrumley]

Hey Buzz,

A vote for the “lesser evil” is still a vote for evil. I can’t make that vote. I know there are no perfect candidates, but I do know there are perfect principles. And neither party or candidate stands for them.

 

[Buzz]

Hey Buzz,

A vote for the “lesser evil” is still a vote for evil. I can’t make that vote. I know there are no perfect candidates, but I do know there are perfect principles. And neither party or candidate stands for them.

Then don't ever vote for anyone, because you will never be able to do anything besides voting for a lessor evil. You also have no right to complain when the greater evil prospers from your apathy.

 

[drbrumley]

Then don't ever vote for anyone, because you will never be able to do anything besides voting for a lessor evil. You also have no right to complain when the greater evil prospers from your apathy.

And principles be damned, right Buzz?

 

[Buzz]

And principles be damned, right Buzz?

Unless the Man is Jesus you will always be faced with finding principles that disagree with God's. Either that, or you'll deceive yourself into thinking they are God's.