toldailytopic: Rick Santorum believes in Satan. Does that alarm you?

aCultureWarrior

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Who infiltrated the Catholic Church with it's pedophile priest scandals?

Homosexuals were allowed into the Church in order to discredit it.

Back to mainstream Protestants.

Since most of the churches accept homosexuality, it shouldn't surprise anyone that abortion is accepted as well.

"Despite this strongly pro-life 1965 statement, the Presbyterian Church (USA), in every statement and resolution since 1970, has supported free and open access to abortion without legal restriction. Almost simultaneously, the United Methodists (1970), the Lutheran Church in America (1970), the United Church of Christ (1971), the Disciples of Christ (1971), and the Southern Baptist Convention (1971) adopted policies allowing abortion as a decision of the woman or the couple. (Fortunately, the Southern Baptist Convention has now come back to a strongly pro-life position.)

For example, the Episcopal Church at its 1964 General Convention stated, "The Church continues to condemn non-therapeutic abortions...." Yet its 1967 General Convention approved abortions where "the physical or mental health of the mother is threatened seriously," and in cases where the child would be born with disability or was conceived in rape. In 1976, the Episcopal General Convention reaffirmed this statement and went further. It expressed "unequivocal opposition to any legislation on the part of the national or state governments which would abridge or deny the right of individuals to reach informed decisions in this matter and to act upon them."

However, in 1988 a resolution passed which declared that "All human life is sacred...from inception until death....We regard all abortion as having a tragic dimension....We emphatically oppose abortion as a means of birth control, family planning, sex selection, or any reason of mere convenience...."

The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA), formed in 1988 through a merger of the American Lutheran Church, the Lutheran Church in America, and the Association of Evangelical Lutheran Churches, issued a statement in 1991 which speaks of the sanctity of human life. However the statement provides three cases for allowing abortions: rape and incest, fetal disability, and threat to the life of the mother. In addition, the ELCA leadership has interpreted these cases to be "illustrative, not all inclusive" and opposes laws that "deny access" to abortion. Moreover, the church's health care plan for pastors and for church workers pays for elective abortions."
http://www.nrlc.org/news/1999/NRL199/sween.html

Would it have made you feel better elo if Rick Santorum had said that mainstream Protestant churches have been infiltrated by "evil" or "wickedness" instead of Satan?
 

aCultureWarrior

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I think the whole 'Satan will not prevail against the church' thing is a bit misinterpreted.
I have always seen it as speaking of the object of Christianity in general. Satan will not prevail against the name of Christendom.
After all, there has been a lot of wrongdoing by many Christians in the past, but Christendom has survived everything for the past two thousand years. It is quite infallible; Satan is unable to undo it.
Christian strength is the strongest force ever to grace mankind :thumb:

Will God not abandon the churches that are obviously abandoning Him?

Santorum is not talking about true Christianity here Sum1, he's talking about the liberalization of mainstream Protestant churches.

The evidence is there.
 

LadyGreenEyes

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The TheologyOnline.com TOPIC OF THE DAY for February 22nd, 2012 10:35 AM


toldailytopic: Rick Santorum believes in Satan. Does that alarm you?



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Not at all. Doesn't bother me that he states a lot of Protestant churches aren't following Christian ideals as they should, either, because some are that way. In fact, it would bother me more if he didn't believe in Satan.
 

Ps82

Well-known member
His believing in Satan does not bother me.
I also believe that Satan would like to attack the very foundations of our nation and the strengths that hold it together ...

I am also not surprised when He / and or "his motivated children" within this world, who do not honor our Lord as theirs, come after the moral Christian standards upon which our country was established... even its churches.

He was totally correct when he suggested that we are seeing a battle between good and evil in our country ... and that the "spirit of Satan" is behind the attacks.

I liked what he said in the debate tonight about the truth that declining moral standards within our society has led to unwed mothers and fatherless children or aborted babies ... often children having children ... who then struggle to makes ends meet.

I accept his reasoning that he introduced a bill to teach abstinence in schools ... to counter what was going on in planned parenthood. His reasoning being something like this: That young people would finally be told the truth regarding the sure way not to suffer crisis pregnancies ... or (I'll add) destroyed lives from STD's.

He may have voted for another large bill that had within it money allocated to Planned Parenthood ... but, at least, he did something else to try to help. I believe that through his experiences that he has become more wise and has developed even stronger convictions. Ron Paul likes to paint him as a fip-flopper, but I see him as a person with consistent convictions who has learned a lot... and about as trust worthy as they come.
 

LadyGreenEyes

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I'm struggling to figure out why this is such a big news story. Is this the best they can do to tarnish Santorum? And is it a wise criticism?

Doesn't Romney believe in Satan? How about Ron Paul?

We know that Obama believes in Satan.... he sees him in the mirror every morning when he brushes his teeth.

:rotfl: Glad I wasn't taking a drink when I read that!

Yeah, the best they can do is try and paint him as a "fanatic", and that is the goal. One is only allowed to be Christian if they are wishy washy and PC, at least according to the MSM.

It may be considered newsworthy because Santorum's more outspoken and blunter about matters of faith than any other candidate. Hard to imagine Newt, Mitt, or even Ron Paul (much less POTUS) coming right out and talking seriously about the devil.

That is a strength, in my book. The erst claim faith, but they won't stand up and stick with it, regarding moral issues.

Yes, if they were honest they'd say they did.

Says a lot, doesn't it? Personally, i find it sickening that people say it's wrong to question the president's faith (whatever that might actually be), wrong to question Romney's belief, and don't even mention Gingrich's faith, but they find it acceptable to attack Santorum over HIS faith. Double standards, anyone?

Referring to 'The Devil' in a public speech to an audience that includes non-Christians seems to either imply a belief in a literal being or a poor grasp of rhetorical technique.

I'm only going based on what Christians I know personally have said to me. I didn't say that 'most' Christians have that opinion regarding Satan, especially not in the USA - I'm just saying that I know a decent number who believe in a figurative Satan rather than a literal being, that's all.

Well, I have a belief that Satan is a literal being. Don't see why that would be any more difficult to believe that a belief in God. If one accepts God, and the Bible, then one has to accept a real person that is Satan. God tells us He created that fallen angel, so it's logical. It's true, though, that some don't believe in a literal Satan. They are wrong, but they believe that way.

Santorum's the perfect candidate to elect as president for those who drool in anticipation for America the "Brave and Free" to be turned into an oppressive, sexist theocracy. The Christian version of any Islamic Fundy Nation. Want your life dictated by the vapid interpretation of an ancient myth-book, from woefully ignorant and profoundly stupid men? Yes, with cherries on top? Than Santorum is the guy.

Your response is a perfect example of why they are going after Santorum in this fashion.

The liberals in the media believe that those who believe in either God or Satan are foolish people who can't except reality. People who are superstitious and see God or Satan behind everything. They believe that science has proven the bible is false because of evolution and thus people who believe in such foolishness are a danger to society since they are or will be making decisions based on a false premise. So to those in the media this is a total disqualifier for public office.

Exactly (and the quote above yours demonstrates this well).

You just don't know anything about religious affairs, that's all. As a Christian, I have a duty to not let some Judaic person go in office and turn the tides even further against Christendom. You are a rotten atheist :idunno:

I think the dumbest thing Christians could do is put Jews over Muslims. I mean, Islam is the only other religion that includes Jesus period, and the Jews pretty much have their finger up at both and none of them have humility period.
But that makes me an anti-semite? You are a moron, Granite, go mind your business.

I think you should recheck your Bible, because it tells us that those who stand with Israel stand with God, and those against are against Him, because they are His chosen people. That doesn't state they do everything right (and in fact the Bible makes it clear they don't), but nonetheless, God chose them. Whether we understand His reasons or not, it doesn't matter. I find your statement a bit off myself. It's as though you fear them, and that seems to indicate a bias. Maybe I am wrong, but that is how it came across. Not trying to argue or offend, just trying to clarify and understand.
 

rexlunae

New member
Absolutely. We're talking about giving someone access to, what--over seven thousand nuclear warheads? I'd prefer their head was on straight.

Aaaaaaaaaand here's Ricky, trying to dismiss or backtrack. As expected.

http://news.yahoo.com/santorum-satan-comments-2008-not-relevant-today-232700385.html

I'd say his comments are incredibly relevant.

I've always worried a little bit that he's perhaps a little too religious to know how to be the head of a sane and secular government. But his response actually seems to draw the appropriate distinction to me, and as long as Satan remains the object of spiritual warfare (prayer and such), that's not so out of line. What's a little weird is that he allowed himself to be filmed saying some of these things, but I don't really think it's that far from Huckabee or some of the other people who've run if you catch them in a less guarded moment. I think the public reaction tells you something about how seriously a lot of Americans take their supposed religion.
 

LadyGreenEyes

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Shut up, Bybee. You just find reasons to try and grandstand on me, that's all. Let someone of Judaic influence be in the highest seat in the world, and you will feel stupid for even defending it in the first place.

You, Granite and Elohiym are all thriving on a straw man which I have burned. It is obvious that I am talking about Judaism.
So all three of you can just go to Hell, trying to call me a bigot and an 'embarrassment' for caring about my religion and seeing that Judaism has no place in disrupting it.

Does that seem like a Christian attitude to you? Telling people they can "go to Hell" because they disagree with your opinions, and tell you why? Should think about that.

Jesus said that salvation is of the Jews (Jn 4:22) meaning the gospel he was preaching was part of Judaism, not a different religion (like Samaritanism). What you call Christianity was, and is, a sect of Judaism. It wasn't even called Christianity until long after Jesus went to his Father. Nowhere in scripture was Christianity declared to be a new religion separate from Judaism. That's been man's doing.

Paul makes the "idiot argument" in Romans 2:28-29.

Agreed. We are not some new, totally separate religion, and the entire OT is a JEWISH book. Some people seem to forget that.

Blah blah blah. I am not antisemitic, I am anti-Judaic. You all can beat that straw man to death, you all are just patently trying to aggravate me, finding a reason to act like children. The irony is that if I replaced Judaic with Muslim in all my posts, nobody on here would saying anything. That is the ignorance of society.

What's the difference?? As for the Muslim comparison, when you show me large crowds of Jewish people waving signs calling for death to Christians, then feel free to share it. You won't find such a crowd, but you can see plenty of Muslim crowds doing just that. Take a look on YouTube, at all of the Muslim protests, with signs and verbiage against Christianity. You seem VERY confused on this issue. That isn't news reporters skewing anything, when you can see the people doing those things. Wake up.

JUDAIC PEOPLE HATE CHRISTIANS. MUSLIMS DO NOT HATE CHRISTIANS. YOU ALL TRUST JEWS MORE THEN MUSLIMS, BECAUSE YOU ALL ARE MEDIA DRONES.
*snip*

Alright, let me amend that....you ARE very confused. I could show you comments against Christians by the thousands, in a few minutes of looking. Media drones? Go ahead, call me one. Deny the factual video evidence of the truth. Why is it you would tell Christians here they can "go to Hell", defend a group that wants all Christians dead, yet claim Christianity? I am now very confused here.....

Rick Santorum believes in Satan. Does that alarm you?

It only alarms me if he doesn't understand the difference between there being evil in the world, and there being invisible demons that try to trick people into doing evil things. Santorum is a Catholic, so I suspect he understands the difference.

What scares me about Santorum is that he appears to me to be completely closed to the alternate beliefs of others. The whole point of being a public servant is to serve the public, not yourself. That means being able to consider and respect lots of different views and ideas about how things are, and how things should be, because the public is a diverse entity. You can't serve the public and ignore them at the same time.

It would be really nice to see a public servant who understood what that means to serve the public, for a change.

One can serve the public without agreeing with everything others believe. The only issue is that they have to understand other have the right to believe as they choose, and not to infringe on that right (assuming no one is hurting others as a result of their beliefs). As for demons, I have no issue with someone believing those are real, as they ARE.

Most Jews are atheists, I am aware of this. A lot of Jews who practice Jewish customs only do so because of tradition. There are really not too many actual adherents to Judaism in relevance to Islam and Christendom. Messianic Jews can't really be called Judaic because they are syncretists. That alone separates them from the practicing Jews.

The initial point I was trying to make is that such a person in office is going to have zero respect for Christianity. They are highly controlled by orthodox Jews, and the Christendom needs, really, is that influence especially in America where Protestants are being backed into a corner by practically everyone including other Christians as well.
A Muslim in office would actually be a better alternative, it's just that people fail to see that with the likes of extremists taking rise.
*snip*

Who are you to say to someone that they are not really Jewish? Being Jewish and being Christian are not mutually exclusive. The apostles certainly didn't think that way.

You're confusing a personal interpretation of "respect" with a social interpretation of it. I don't care what a public servant respects personally. That's his/her own business. When I say they should respect the beliefs of their constituents, I mean that 'he' should understand the beliefs of his constituents, and show respect for them in his role as their representative. Otherwise, he's not representing them, anymore. He's only representing himself, and his own beliefs.

A Christian can remain a Christian while still respecting and representing the atheists within his constituency. And in fact, my point is the he is obliged to do so by the requirements of his office.

And when it comes to the question of righteousness, I believe any public servant who can't manage to humble himself enough to act as the representative of his constituents, even though he may disagree with them, is unfit for the job, and should not have accepted the responsibility of public service in the first place. In a nation of free peoples, the public has the right to be wrong. Any supposed representative that doesn't understand and respect that right, does not deserve the honor of serving them.

The right to believe as we wish, yes. That doesn't mean we have to respect the beliefs themselves, though.

Your ancestors killed Jesus in cold blood, your generation spits on Christians. Therefore, your bleeding heart makes you a hypocrite. I have ample reason for not wanting a practicing Jew in office, and you go on to portray me as Hitler.

Typical atheist.

WRONG. You want to know who killed Jesus? I DID. So, stop blaming an entire group of people, and blame me. MY sin killed Him. THAT is what He died for. Anyone calling themselves Christian that can't understand that truth doesn't understand who Jesus is.

The "facts" being that you insulted my heritage and are a stunted, ignorant racist. Using religion as a shield to justify hatred is an old sly ploy of hicks such as yourself, and it's an old, transparent trope. If you had the courage of your convictions you wouldn't need to use Christianity as an excuse for being a bigot.

Have to side with you on that one. No excuse to use religion as a shield for bigotry. It's one thing to see a real threat, and call it what it is, but it's another to pretend one that doesn't exist, and for which there is no evidence. All the while ignoring evidence that a group one defends IS in fact a real threat. As a Christian, sorry some do that sort of thing. It isn't right, and surely drives many from salvation. Look at the Savior, not us fellow sinner, eh?
 
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LadyGreenEyes

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Probably not.

As I said, if Santorum was an extreme Charismatic or something like that it might make me worry somewhat. But that doesn't seem to be the case.

I pulled some of his comments from Drudge....

It's hard to know how literally he means Satan's involvement to be.

I would say that Satan is very involved, here and everywhere else in the world. On that, Santorum doesn't worry me.

Again, from the Catholic Reporter:

From the National Catholic Reporter:

We have a Catholic presidential candidate who apparently thinks Protestantism is controlled by Satan. No surprise there. Problem is, he is implying that his war is against certain religious denominations. Furthermore, unlike Kennedy's assurance he would not, this guy is implying that he will take orders from the Papal States (a foreign nation). His allegiance is to the Catholic Church above his country. Protestants would be foolish to vote for Santorum.

Now THAT is a legitimate worry. I wish someone would ask him, straight up, where his allegiance lies. However, that said, what other options do we have? Gingrich is, I believe, also Catholic (converted to it, i think I read), and Romney is Mormon (not Christian at all in my book, as they deny the deity of Christ). Not sure about Paul, but his position on legalizing drugs, his frankly insane comments on foreign countries (NOT on aid; he's right there), and his vague response about "privacy" when asked to clarify his abortion stance, all make him a non-option. The people I would prefer aren't running.

He believes that Satan is controlling mainline Protestantism and that mainline Protestantism is "gone from Christianity."

Does that alarm you?

In the case of some churches, he's correct. I can't disagree with him factually. The worry is whether he sees non-Catholic Christianity as some sort of target or not. That isn't clear just yet.

What else happens in Israel is irrelevant. I proved my case, and so I am neither ignorant, or stupid, or racist, or bigoted.

So, you state that Jewish people "terrorize" Muslims, but call it "irrelevant" that Muslims commit acts of terror against a Jewish nation (and in fact the rest of the world)? Interesting. I am starting to see a trend here. By the way, where is the "proof" you mention? I must have missed it.....

Who infiltrated the Catholic Church with it's pedophile priest scandals?

Same evil. That's a case of his pointing out a splinter and missing the plank. Instead of addressing evil in ANY church, he's made the error of assuming it can't touch HIS chosen one.

I think the whole 'Satan will not prevail against the church' thing is a bit misinterpreted.
I have always seen it as speaking of the object of Christianity in general. Satan will not prevail against the name of Christendom.
After all, there has been a lot of wrongdoing by many Christians in the past, but Christendom has survived everything for the past two thousand years. It is quite infallible; Satan is unable to undo it.
Christian strength is the strongest force ever to grace mankind :thumb:

Very true! The Church in that case is the body of believers, those that have accepted Jesus as Savior. That, the enemy cannot defeat! Doesn't stop him from trying really hard, though, and we should all be wary.
 

Tambora

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I'm struggling to figure out why this is such a big news story. Is this the best they can do to tarnish Santorum? And is it a wise criticism?

Doesn't Romney believe in Satan? How about Ron Paul?

We know that Obama believes in Satan.... he sees him in the mirror every morning when he brushes his teeth.
There goes more of my Dr.Pepper!
Smiley25-1.gif
 

patman

Active member
He believes that Satan is controlling mainline Protestantism and that mainline Protestantism is "gone from Christianity."

Does that alarm you?

That's a different topic really... but to answer:

Not really. How many churches teach that Jesus is not the only way to heaven? How many put more emphasis on tithing than stopping abortion and sexual immorality? How many try to sell miracles or put giving to the church above paying your bills?

I was under the impression that it was understood by most Churches that Satan is extremely busy in the Church.

I tend to agree. Church today is NOT where it needs to be. Only a handful of churches today have their priorities straight.
 

rexlunae

New member
It is obvious that I am talking about Judaism.

I am not antisemitic, I am anti-Judaic. You all can beat that straw man to death, you all are just patently trying to aggravate me, finding a reason to act like children.

So, you were just trying to make a rational criticism of the Jewish religion? Right, ok. That seems like such a reasonable thing to do...except that so often, it's just a front for this:

Your ancestors killed Jesus in cold blood, your generation spits on Christians.

Suddenly, you drop the pretense and say what's actually on your mind. And it's exactly the racist lie that is at the root of all antisemitism. Some straw man, that last quote could have been taken from medieval pogroms against the Jews as easily as a forum post in 2012.

The irony is that if I replaced Judaic with Muslim in all my posts, nobody on here would saying anything. That is the ignorance of society.

"Muslim" isn't a race, and Muslims typically haven't been targeted for eradication as Jews have. And even so, I think a lot of people would take notice if the attack on it were as bereft of substance as what you've put forward against the Jews in this thread. I'm definitely a proponent of the right to criticize any religion, but you've failed to actually do that, and you've confused criticism and bigotry.
 

Sum1sGruj

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Does that seem like a Christian attitude to you? Telling people they can "go to Hell" because they disagree with your opinions, and tell you why? Should think about that.

After being told that I am an ignorant, racist, bigoted, etc. on unwarranted grounds, those words tend to want to come out. So be sure to mention that as well instead of going specifically to me. Not very Christian, you know.

So, you were just trying to make a rational criticism of the Jewish religion? Right, ok. That seems like such a reasonable thing to do...except that so often, it's just a front for this:

That's what I was doing the whole time, but people like you find one little thing, twist it, and try to make me look like Satan himself. You all are starved for attention, indecent, and absurd.

You and others posts have just been a big ball of straw men and false witness. I never said one bigoted thing, I simply stated facts and only out of proper defense for the utter badgering I was taking. You can go to Hell to with the others who participated in that nonsense. Nobody talks to me that way.
 

BabyChristian

New member
I'm struggling to figure out why this is such a big news story. Is this the best they can do to tarnish Santorum? And is it a wise criticism?

Doesn't Romney believe in Satan? How about Ron Paul?

We know that Obama believes in Satan.... he sees him in the mirror every morning when he brushes his teeth.

I love that statement! Should have greened you on that one but already had. :first: in my book.

I think it might be that quite a lot of modern Christians don't actually believe in an actual conscious being called Satan, instead considering the concept of the Devil to simply represent the human capacity for evil. To such individuals - and to non-believers - the President believing in an actual, sentient creature that is literally the King of Evil might seem bizarre and worryingly superstitious/primitive, especially in a would-be President.

So our wretchedness is just innate? Why would we be so wretched as so many are? Animals are not so wretched to their own kind as we are. Explain that please.
 

BabyChristian

New member
True. I don't consider it newsworthy considering the man's a member of a church that still trains exorcists; I'd be stunned if Santorum didn't believe in a literal devil. And frankly, so would most Catholics.



I think if you asked Mitt to identify his hair color he'd probably talk to a consultant first. More seriously, he was caught off guard by a question regarding proxy baptisms--religion seems a sure way to get him flat-footed and deer-eyed. I'd like to see that happen more. He does not handle pressure or thinking on his feet very well.



No, I'm not. My affiliations are right there under my avatar. For whatever reason people insist on calling me a "liberal," too, as if they didn't get old a long time ago.:smokie:


Under your avatar you used to say Satanist. You've changed it. I know I irritated you at one time by asking if you really were.
 

MrRadish

New member
So our wretchedness is just innate? Why would we be so wretched as so many are? Animals are not so wretched to their own kind as we are. Explain that please.

We're a lot more creative than other animals and have stronger theory of mind. With that power comes a much greater potential to inflict suffering, as well as to create art, build things and help people.

Not that all of the other animals could exactly be called pleasant. A cursory look at the war-like behaviour of chimpanzee clans or the reproductive habits of ducks will show you that the animal kingdom is hardly a pleasant one.
 
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