toldailytopic: Once a person is saved can they reject that salvation should they chan

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godrulz

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Grosnick Marowbe said:
The Bible speaks of the fact that, few will make it (narrow is the way, remember?)
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Are you saying that all godly Christians who reject OSAS are not saved?! despite not rejecting Christ/gospel (which does not talk about POTS)?

Every cult (JWs, Mormons, etc.) also use this verse to argue that they must be right because they are the minority. The verse shows that Jesus is the narrow way (vs Buddha, Mohammed, New Age, Rev. Moon, JW, Mormon), not how many or few will end up in the kingdom (there are more Christians than any other religion, but more unbelievers overall). Most Christians are not OSAS.

Don't make a doctrinal dispute tantamount to the gospel (like hyper-Calvinists claiming one must accept TULIP or their view of sovereignty or you have a false god/gospel).

Are you related to serpentdove? You have the same spirit/ad hominem propensity she does.
 
Tehmill

Tehmill

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That denies everything that is written about Judas...what a message of hope and encouragement you folk preach...come to Jesus...you might end up like Judas
 
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godrulz

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Tehmill said:
Nah, nah you are bending the truth to fit your doctrine, if He knew from the beginning that was when He chose him.

This is what Hebrews says
10v 9-10 Then He said Lo I am come to do Thy will O God, He taketh away the first that He may establish the second by the which will we are SANCTIFIED through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE FOR ALL.

vs14
For by one offering He hath PERFECTED FOREVER them that are sanctified.

Just read and believe...it says we are sanctified by the offering...not anything we do or fail to do...once for all.
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This is actually a tricky verse in translations and Greek.

It also does not negate the apostasy warnings in the same book (Heb. 3; 6; 10, etc.).
 
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godrulz

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glorydaz said:
We aren't talking about a man and wife (mere humans). We are talking about the Power of God to save and keep those who come to Him. Eternal life actually does mean ETERNAL, and any lack of trust in God and His ability to perform what He began in us means there is no justification...simply because it is lack of belief.

1 John 5:13
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

1 John 5:20
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

We are KEPT by the power of God, we don't KEEP ourselves. This the the assurance only a true believer can have. We don't doubt...we believe there is a place reserved for us in heaven.

1 Peter 1:4-6
To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
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Verses about promises for believers (they have these promises because they are still believers, not apostates) do not negate the ones about apostates (former believers). I agree with all the verses about the security of believers, assurance of believers, but I also take seriously the inspired verses that warn about apostasy, falling from truth (not fakes who never had it).
 
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Grosnick Marowbe

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godrulz said:
Are you saying that all godly Christians who reject OSAS are not saved?! despite not rejecting Christ/gospel (which does not talk about POTS)?

Every cult (JWs, Mormons, etc.) also use this verse to argue that they must be right because they are the minority. The verse shows that Jesus is the narrow way (vs Buddha, Mohammed, New Age, Rev. Moon, JW, Mormon), not how many or few will end up in the kingdom (there are more Christians than any other religion, but more unbelievers overall). Most Christians are not OSAS.

Don't make a doctrinal dispute tantamount to the gospel (like hyper-Calvinists claiming one must accept TULIP or their view of sovereignty or you have a false god/gospel).

Are you related to serpentdove? You have the same spirit/ad hominem propensity she does.
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I didn't say that!
 
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godrulz

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glorydaz said:
Judas was raised up (counted among the number) for the very purpose of betraying our Lord. Being in the inner circle does NOT mean Judas was saved. What you claim is that the Holy Spirit isn't able to create in us a clean heart and we do NOT pass from death into life. Sorry, Godrulz, you can never prove that Judas was saved just because he was counted among the number.
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He was called an apostle. He was not fatalistically chosen to be a devil, but became one.

If you are Calvinist/determinist, I cannot help you nor agree with your error.
 
Doormat

Doormat

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Grosnick Marowbe said:
Amen! I laugh along with you!
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Galatians 6:7-8 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

See Galatians 5:19-21.
 
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godrulz

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Grosnick Marowbe said:
All saved people will continue to commit sin, while in this fleshly body!
However, they are, positioned into the Body of Christ in the Spiritual sense, and
in that, Spiritual sense, they do not sin! Why? Because they are, in Christ, and
He is, in them!
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This is a contradiction. One cannot sin and not sin in the same act. It is either/or, not both/and.

You also are not distinguishing the conditions of faith vs unbelief (a unique sin) from fleshly sins that do not sever relationship, just intimacy (cf. anger or lust vs divorce in marriage).
 
IMJerusha

IMJerusha

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glorydaz said:
Judas was raised up (counted among the number) for the very purpose of betraying our Lord. Being in the inner circle does NOT mean Judas was saved. What you claim is that the Holy Spirit isn't able to create in us a clean heart and we do NOT pass from death into life. Sorry, Godrulz, you can never prove that Judas was saved just because he was counted among the number.
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We are all raised up in sin and we deceive ourselves if we deny it. Judas chose not to confess and repent.
What purpose would Yeshua have had in praying for protection over all believers from the evil one? "My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one." The evil one, the adversary, HaSatan, tempts us away from Him every day and that has nothing to do with the Ruach's inability but rather with our own choices in spite of the leading of the Ruach.
 
glorydaz

glorydaz

Well-known member
godrulz said:
He was called an apostle. He was not fatalistically chosen to be a devil, but became one.

If you are Calvinist/determinist, I cannot help you nor agree with your error.
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I'm not a Calvinist, but I am not so blind that I don't understand why Judas was counted among the the disciples. The disciples had to be saved one by one....being in a group saves no one.

Jesus knew full well that Judas did NOT believe, and that he would betray Him. None of the disciples were saved when they first began to follow Jesus, and many of those who followed turned away without being saved. Judas turned away yet you want to count him as saved. There's the problem you face. Not everyone who claims to be saved or attends church or speaks the right words is saved. Those are the false brethren...of which Judas was one.
 
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Grosnick Marowbe

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godrulz said:
This is a contradiction. One cannot sin and not sin in the same act. It is either/or, not both/and.

You also are not distinguishing the conditions of faith vs unbelief (a unique sin) from fleshly sins that do not sever relationship, just intimacy (cf. anger or lust vs divorce in marriage).
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You don't understand the physical world as opposed to the Spiritual realm! In the Spiritual realm, true believers are in the Body of Christ, and
therefore cannot sin! Christ is in them, and they in Christ! However, we as, true believers still have a physical body, and therefore, continue to sin! Furthermore, the Holy Spirit that dwells within us, works to conform us into the image of Christ, and therefore, away from sinful habits!
 
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Grosnick Marowbe

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glorydaz said:
I'm not a Calvinist, but I am not so blind that I don't understand why Judas was counted among the the disciples. The disciples had to be saved one by one....being in a group saves no one.

Jesus knew full well that Judas did NOT believe, and that he would betray Him. None of the disciples were saved when they first began to follow Jesus, and many of those who followed turned away without being saved. Judas turned away yet you want to count him as saved. There's the problem you face. Not everyone who claims to be saved or attends church or speaks the right words is saved. Those are the false brethren...of which Judas was one.
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True!
 
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godrulz

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glorydaz said:
I'm not a Calvinist, but I am not so blind that I don't understand why Judas was counted among the the disciples. The disciples had to be saved one by one....being in a group saves no one.

Jesus knew full well that Judas did NOT believe, and that he would betray Him. None of the disciples were saved when they first began to follow Jesus, and many of those who followed turned away without being saved. Judas turned away yet you want to count him as saved. There's the problem you face. Not everyone who claims to be saved or attends church or speaks the right words is saved. Those are the false brethren...of which Judas was one.
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It says he BECAME these things, not was so. From the beginning is an idiom pointing to a specific time, not an absolute beginning to the second.

Jesus prayed for wisdom in who to choose. There is risk in God's project unless He is omnicausal (He is not). There is no wisdom in choosing a devil after a night of prayer and calling him an apostle (does not say he was a devil at that point).
 
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godrulz

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Grosnick Marowbe said:
You don't understand the physical world as opposed to the Spiritual realm! In the Spiritual realm, true believers are in the Body of Christ, and
therefore cannot sin! Christ is in them, and they in Christ! However, we as, true believers still have a physical body, and therefore, continue to sin! Furthermore, the Holy Spirit that dwells within us, works to conform us into the image of Christ, and therefore, away from sinful habits!
Click to expand...

If true believers cannot sin, then the historical narratives in Pauline Scripture and his exhortations/imperatives for believers to not sin or cease to sin are illusory. It also makes God in Heb. 12 a liar.

Will not is not cannot. Euphemizing it away is not helpful.
 
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