toldailytopic: Once a person is saved can they reject that salvation should they chan

[godrulz]

If I am Saved, how can I get lost again? Now if I am lost, than I am or was always lost, and never was Saved.

false dichotomy...the other possibility is that you were saved, but no longer are so. Salvation is based on continued relationship/faith, not reversion to godless unbelief (possible if we are not robots).

 

[godrulz]

If you are granted eternal life, then you cannot lose it; because if you could, it was never eternal to begin with.

Eternal life is conditioned on being in the Son and remaining in the Son. It is not inherent in us nor continuous if we renounce/reject Him.

Using your logic, those who are experiencing eternal death as lost ones, cannot lose it and get eternal life or it was not eternal death, blah blah.

You fail to see the conditional element in the security verses and are ignoring the apostasy warning verses.

 

[godrulz]

The simple answer No. We are eternally secure in Christ. As said earlier, How do you become unsaved?

If one can become saved from unsaved, why cannot one be unsaved from saved. Neither salvation nor perseverance are unconditional. You wrongly assume there is an irreversible change instead of seeing a relational element to salvation.

 

[godrulz]

Seems to me to be impossible to lose salvation. I know the standard arguments pro and con, but that is where I come out. I think the weight of scripture supports the view of eternal security.

The Bible teaches conditional vs unconditional eternal security. Believers are secure. God is faithful, but this does not preclude the possibility of us becoming faithless and reverting to godless unbelief (apostates are unbelievers by definition). Fake converts were never true believers, but apostates fall from truth.

Just as there are verses about sovereignty and free will, God as one and God as three, so there are verses about security of the believer, but also warnings about the possibility of believers falling away and forfeiting the promises and privileges that only apply to those who believe and continue to believe (ceasing faith is unbelief, a unique sin).

 

[godrulz]

That's true. The scriptures are also pretty simple. Take 'em or leave 'em.

http://www.amazon.com/Life-Son-Robert-Shank/dp/1556610912


The appendix has verses claimed by OSAS and ones claimed by non-OSAS. It also lists verses claimed by both views, so there are paradigm, exegesis, proof texting issues here.

Shank was Calvinistic, but gives arguments and exegesis for a biblical view of POTS/eternal security (not OSAS).

I think the verses are simple too, but come to different conclusions (same with most Arminians/Open Theists vs Calvinists).

 

[godrulz]

What if someone rejects their spouse but the other person, who is in authoritarian charge of the court system, refuses to divorce?

Similar? No?

Salvation is not deterministic. Just as a marriage relationship can be broken in real life (authoritarian courts are not akin to God's moral government based on love/free will), so can salvation. To say a person was never married because they divorce is a lame argument akin to OSAS arguments.

Apostasy is an extreme issue, not akin to a fight in a marriage that does not end the relationship (fleshly sins, etc.).

 

[Bright Raven]

Salvation is not deterministic. Just as a marriage relationship can be broken in real life (authoritarian courts are not akin to God's moral government based on love/free will), so can salvation. To say a person was never married because they divorce is a lame argument akin to OSAS arguments.

Apostasy is an extreme issue, not akin to a fight in a marriage that does not end the relationship (fleshly sins, etc.).

What scripture says you can walk away?

 

[godrulz]

What scripture says you can walk away?

What Scripture says you cannot? There are verses that are stern warnings about the possibility of falling away in addition to ones about the security of the believer with conditional aspects. The only way to embrace all relevant verses is conditional vs unconditional eternal security.

Given free will, the concept is self-evident.

 

[Bright Raven]

What Scripture says you cannot? There are verses that are stern warnings about the possibility of falling away in addition to ones about the security of the believer with conditional aspects. The only way to embrace all relevant verses is conditional vs unconditional eternal security.

Given free will, the concept is self-evident.

John 10:28-29

King James Version (KJV)

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

 

[Dialogos]

No, when a person is regenerate, they become a new creature in Christ. And God Who began the good work (of justification, sanctification and glorification) will complete that work at the day of Christ.

Granted, those who argue for eternal security from an Arminian or an Open Theist position will have to argue from the other side of their mouth on this.

 

[godrulz]

John 10:28-29

King James Version (KJV)

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Romans 8 also says that nothing can separate us from His love. Demons, men, persecution, etc. cannot remove a man from relationship with God, but a person's mind and will in rejection of truth and light can. The Calvinistic proof texts also have a conditional element in the broader context (such as present tense of believing and continuing to believe; hearing and continuing to hear/follow Him).

You cannot use this verse to create a contradiction with the apostasy/falling away verses. The way to retain both motifs is to have the right view: conditional vs unconditional security.

A verse about believers (those who believe and continue to believe vs cease to believe and become unbelievers) is true. We have security as believers, but this does not prove that a believer cannot become an unbeliever (and thus not have life/security...the reality has changed).

 

[glorydaz]

The TheologyOnline.com TOPIC OF THE DAY for May 10th, 2013 05:00 AM

toldailytopic: Once a person is saved can they reject that salvation should they change their mind about wanting to be with God in heaven?

No, once you submit to the operation of God, you are bought and paid for...... His work on you has begun.

Colossians 2:11-13
In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;


Those who are sons of God will never be forsaken, neither can they hide from His LONG ARM. I'd advise they surrender quickly to any chastening along the way. It would save them a world of grief.

 

[Town Heretic]

No. Grace is a gift that once accepted transfers ownership. You are no longer your own.

 

[Tambora]

Seems to me to be impossible to lose salvation. I know the standard arguments pro and con, but that is where I come out. I think the weight of scripture supports the view of eternal security.

I concur.
Welcome to TOL.

 

[Nick M]

Not one person is going to get to heaven and say "I changed my mind, I want to go to hell and be gone from him" instead.

 

[Nick M]

No, once you submit to the operation of God, you are bought and paid for...... His work on you has begun.

Different thread, but you are still wrong. Salvation is about making dead people alive. As you just quoted, therefore defeating your own statement. If salvation was about turning over a new leaf, then he died for nothing.

Romans 7

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

Therefore

Romans 8:10

10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.


2 Corinthians 5:16

16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer.

 

[Nick M]

What Scripture says you cannot?

As if you have not been shown right here, thousands, literally thousands of times. Do not pass go, do not collect $200. You are going to hell.

 

[Tehmill]

No. Grace is a gift that once accepted transfers ownership. You are no longer your own.

*
Further we belonged to Him in the first place.

 

[Tehmill]

Salvation is not deterministic.
You mean Paul was wrong to say "who He foreknew He also predestined..." strange that you should change a bible word and substitute an equivilent, why would you do that?
Just as a marriage relationship can be broken in real life (authoritarian courts are not akin to God's moral government based on love/free will), so can salvation. To say a person was never married because they divorce is a lame argument akin to OSAS arguments.
Bible marriages were arranged, Moses recognised divorce God did not, even so God asks "where is My bill of divorce?" there is none...can you find them? we have His espousals
Apostasy is an extreme issue, not akin to a fight in a marriage that does not end the relationship (fleshly sins, etc.).

Judas is that rare...are there any others in the NT? Judas was never saved.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Once one is, truly saved and in the body of Christ and the Holy
Spirit is within them (indwelled) they are sealed and cannot lose
their forgiveness, mercy, and eternal life that, God has bestowed
upon them, through the shed blood and resurrection of His Son!

Christ is, in them, and they are, in Christ, there's no turning back,
nor would any true believer desire to go back!