Yes, so OSAS is incoherent in light of this. God does not coerce/cause salvation/perseverance. It is a reciprocal vs unilateral love relationship.
toldailytopic: Once a person is saved can they reject that salvation should they chan
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
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Yes, so OSAS is incoherent in light of this. God does not coerce/cause salvation/perseverance. It is a reciprocal vs unilateral love relationship.
This is consistent with OT, Peter, John, Jesus, etc. (Rom. 4-5). I affirm this truth about justification, but sanctification/perseverance are related, not identical.
You introduce a deterministic, causative, coercive issue (OSAS) in contradistinction to free will that allows one to reject Christ before or after conversion (vs universalism/OSAS). Your view practically negates free will at conversion since a person cannot fall away/apostasize despite the biblical and anecdotal evidence that it is possible in congruence with free will vs determinism.
Post 278 has been revised. please read!
glorydaz
Well-known member
We can receive or reject Him. Then we are no longer our own, but have been bought with a price...having our heart purified by faith...having passed from death unto life....becoming His workmanship not our own. It seems to me you don't see the difference between the old man who can reject our Lord and the new man that is created IN CHRIST JESUS.
Before salvation, the world is our home. After salvation, we are kept in God's back yard. Our freedom is limited according to His good pleasure and His long-suffering as we are being conformed into His image. Being sons of the living God, we know who has control and who it is we have believed...else our faith does not justify us before God.
Do you know whom you have believed? Are you persuaded HE IS ABLE to keep you? That is really what it boils down to.
2 Timothy 1:12
For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
Wow, even most Open Theists do not go this far.
I do not see how you can support OSAS in a probationary period full of flesh and temptation, yet deny OSAS in a perfect, heavenly state?!
Gregory Boyd feels we will be more compatibilistic than libertarian in heaven (I am not sure I agree).
If we are not OSAS in perfect heaven, why on earth defend it for this imperfect time before heaven?!
It seems to me you would be more consistent if you deny it before and after heaven.
Demarcation of ministry, not two true gospels post-cross!
Your other post shows you still confuse justification, sanctification, and perseverance, and that you misunderstand, misrepresent my view on perseverance (just as SD does with my view of impeccability, original sin, etc.).
You are a sozoite (make same rookie mistakes as he did).
glorydaz
Well-known member
Not in heaven, but can and does happen in this life (some shipwreck their faith and act stupidly and selfishly in this probation period before death seals destiny).:box:
The Antichrist will likely be godless always, never saved.
This was not about Judas in context. It does not name Judas. Other verses are applied to Jesus as Messiah that are not predictive prophecy and not what the original context was at all. There are many e.g. (that you are ignorant of due to a wrong traditional view) where OT verses are applied because they are parallel or illustrative, not because they are predictive fulfillment.
If Judas did not betray him, the verse would not have been recorded or it would have been applied to someone else.
If Judas Iscariot was named in the OT, then I would be wrong and you would be right.
Just as God's saving power and grace can be resisted/rejected (vs universalism), so His keeping power/grace can be resisted/rejected after conversion. Your view is iRobot, not love, freedom, relationship, responsibility.
Verses about BELIEVERS are true (since the audience is actually believing and continued to believe), but they do not apply any longer to former believers (apostates, fallen away, no longer believing but rejecting Him).
Calvinists are wrong to say that grace is irresistible or that love is deterministic.
If we can reject God before conversion, we should be able to reject Him after conversion. Scripture warns about this possibility and we can give many e.g. in Christianity or other religions. If a devout Muslim can fall away and become a Christian or an atheist, then there is no logical reason a devout Christian cannot fall away or convert to another religion.
Wrong assumptions about salvation being irreversible divorced from loving reciprocal relationship lead to wrong conclusions.
glorydaz
Well-known member
And how is it we persevere? By our own efforts, or by His work in us? If we claim it's by our own efforts then we claim we are conforming ourselves into His image and we claim we are transforming ourselves. That is nothing more than boasting in ourselves rather than our Lord. Man is forever boasting in his own salvation and his own keeping. :nono:
Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Romans 12:1-3
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
glorydaz
Well-known member
No LOGICAL reason? How about the fact that we are the clay and God is the potter? How about the fact that we have a heart circumcised by the Holy Spirit? Is God not able to complete what He began in us? You're confusing those who have heard the good news and then rejected it with those who have been raised into newness of LIFE. Drink of the LIVING WATER and then you'll be unable to deny it's POWER.
I'm baffled....do you always deny the POWER OF GOD? Do you actually think the Holy Spirit's circumcision of our heart is so feeble that it can be undone by the anything we might do? That anything can separate us from the Love of God? :think:
1 Peter 1:5
Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Let me ask you this. Is there anything that could separate you from the love of God? Could you lose your salvation?
StanJ53
New member
As I said, cherry picking and ignoring the verses I gave you. The verses you quoted to NOT exist in a vacuum. They are to be interpreted with ALL scripture, NOT just the ones you pick out to try and prove your point.
You are NOT the first on here to try this rookie, and you won't be the last.
Are you doormat btw?
StanJ53
New member
glorydaz
Well-known member
Ah, so you claim that which was written in the OT wasn't predictive....merely an illustration? Does that apply to casting lots for Christ's clothing and His being bruised for our iniquities? Hmmm...
So the fact that Jesus called Judas a devil long before he betrayed Him was simply a figure of speech, I suppose?
John 6:70-71
Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.
And the fact that Judas had access as a disciple and ate and drank has nothing to do with Psalm 41...just a mere coincidence? Hmmm...
Matt. 26:21-25
And as they did eat, he said, Verily I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me. And they were exceeding sorrowful, and began every one of them to say unto him, Lord, is it I? And he answered and said, He that dippeth his hand with me in the dish, the same shall betray me. The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. Then Judas, which betrayed him, answered and said, Master, is it I? He said unto him, Thou hast said.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Judas is called the son of perdition, too, yet you claim he was saved. Don't you find that an odd contradiction then?
He was only called the son of perdition when he died and went to hell. He was not called this when he was chosen initially. He was called an apostle in the same list as the other apostles. Jesus did not chose a devil. The verb tense shows that he became a betrayer, then was filled with Satan, THEN died and became a son of perdition. He was not predestined in eternity past to be this, was not predicted in the OT to fill the role unconditionally/deterministically, was not called these things at birth nor after He was called by God himself to be an apostle. Near the beginning of the ministry, he had a downward spiral until he cooked his goose.
This is the biblical chronology, but you have a preconception to retain.
Regardless, OSAS or not does not rise or fall on Judas (who does illustrate apostasy/falling away), but on all biblical evidence vs proof texts out of context.
You have not dealt with the book length topic I linked that looks at all these Scriptures. Don't assume your tradition is truth or free from bias.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Ah, you see this life as probation. That explains a lot. What do you think Paul is talking about in this verse?
Romans 6:8
Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
So I ask you, what are you waiting for?
John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.