toldailytopic: Objectively, when does a person become a person? At conception? Or at

[Cruciform]

You happen to be at a clinic that specializes in in-vitro fertilization, when suddenly the fire alarm goes off. Before you run for the emergency exit, you have an opportunity either save a tray full of 10,000 recently fertilized eggs, or a newborn child.

If you picked the baby, I'd be very interested to hear the rationale for that decision. If you picked the tray of fertilized eggs, I'd find it rather hard to believe you.

I would choose the infant, not because an infant is somehow "more human" or "more alive" than an embryo, but for the very pragmatic reason that an infant---being fully sentient and able to experience pain and distress---possesses the capacity for conscious suffering, while an embryo has not yet developed that ability (some choices are rather tough that way). Ultimately, however, I would do my best to rescue both the embryos and the infant, since both are equally living human beings.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[Flipper]

Interesting. So to extend our thought experiment a bit, in a situation where you could save 10,000 adults who were in a state of temporary coma and would feel no pain if they died, you'd choose the single individual who was awake and would suffer over them? If no, why not?

 

[Cruciform]

Interesting. So to extend our thought experiment a bit, in a situation where you could save 10,000 adults who were in a state of temporary coma and would feel no pain if they died, you'd choose the single individual who was awake and would suffer over them? If no, why not?

Perhaps. It's difficult to say, since this is merely an entirely hypothetical thought experiment, and a virtual impossibility. In any case, whatever choices one might make, they would need to be made in light of the manifest reality that all parties involved are living human beings. Such facts simply cannot be altered by circumstances or context.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[lighe]

I'm wondering how to argue with those who say a person is not a living soul tell the first breath of air.


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[Stripe]

I'm wondering how to argue with those who say a person is not a living soul tell the first breath of air.

Idiots have to be mocked.

 

[pebbleanrock]

Psm22ish says they would cast lots for his garments. Did these soldiers enter predestination at THEIR conception or HIS death or before time started? At least at conception their history is written. Conception gets my vote.

 

[SimplyHisSheep]

From before the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 1:4 says that he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love.

 

[Stripe]

Psm22ish says they would cast lots for his garments. Did these soldiers enter predestination at THEIR conception or HIS death or before time started? At least at conception their history is written. Conception gets my vote.

:dizzy:

I guess it's possible to get the right answer with the wrong working.

 

[bybee]

From before the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 1:4 says that he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love.

So, are you saying that He, God, has also ordained or chosen that some are to be aborted? That they are the "not-chosen" ones?

 

[Silent Hunter]

At birth after taking a first breath.

 

[SimplyHisSheep]

So, are you saying that He, God, has also ordained or chosen that some are to be aborted? That they are the "not-chosen" ones?

Nope, I'm just saying that we are "people" from the foundation of the world. From before our birth or conception. Each human life is of inestimable value.

 

[Granite]

Granite and I have already stated that zygotes are alive. The life part exists before conception. No one here is debating that, nor has it ever been an issue.

They don't seem able to recognize the difference.

 

[CabinetMaker]

A question about balancing the rights of two persons:

Does a mother have the right to terminate a zygote?

Does a zygote have the right to terminate its mother?

Bump

 

[Granite]

Bump

Well for me the question doesn't quite work because I don't think a zygote's a person. Makes it a non-sequitar, kind of.

 

[coehling]

I accept the soul enters the body at the time God defines you as a sinner. since only humans can sin. Most christian denominations use Ps. 51 as a proof passage.

 

[Cruciform]

Well for me the question doesn't quite work because I don't think a zygote's a person. Makes it a non-sequitar, kind of.

QUESTION: What, in your opinion, does a living human embryo lack that would somehow make it a person?



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[Cruciform]

I'm wondering how to argue with those who say a person is not a living soul tell the first breath of air.

Even setting the issue of personhood aside, the embryo is demonstrably a living human being, and should---on that basis alone---be protected and nurtured as such.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[coehling]

I don't think my opinion or anybody else's is of any importance. I would like to think the study and logic of what is written by God has His opinion and that will be what He uses at our Judgment day. Genesis One suggest strongly that organisms reproduce after their Kind. I'm a person so my kid is a person. Once the DNA is together and he has a soul the kid lacks nothing.

 

[coehling]

You can call me whatever you like but I still won't be quiet on God's truths.

The actual idea proponents of "free will" have is there is no God we have to obey. We can do whatever we damn well want.

And -behind that- the idea that humans are "basically good". ( Lighthouse only needs to read the daily news to know THAT isn't true. )

Our Creator says not to murder (Exodus 20:13). Yet, when we want to commit abortion we call it "Pro-Choice". Just a matter of our free will.

Never occurs to any of 'em that -by arranging opportunities for abortion- the Lord also arranges His opportunity to exercise justice against us murderers.

Even the Devil glorifies God.

When the Most High permits (even arranges opportunity for) evil, it's opportunity to punish evil, as well. To show how much He hates sin.

And -since we aren't "basically good"- don't take much to arrange THAT.

"A dog barks when his master is attacked.
I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth
is attacked and yet would remain silent."

John Calvin

Referring to the second sentence: Nobody has to obey God! Adam didn't, but he and we have to suffer the consequences.

 

[Real Sorceror]

Does a mother have the right to terminate a zygote?

Yes.

Does a zygote have the right to terminate its mother?

Never.

QUESTION: What, in your opinion, does a living human embryo lack that would somehow make it a person?

Thoughts.