toldailytopic: Liberals want to outlaw large soft drinks and other large sugary drink

Traditio

BANNED
Banned
What, do you think the average adult consumer who's drinking a litre of 'Pepsi' or whatever doesn't already know it's a sugary drink? That it's not going to do their health any benefits?

According to wiki answers, there are 200 calories in a 16 oz. coca cola. I think that there are roughly as many calories in a small bag of chewy sprees (a fruit flavored candy). I believe that the nutritional content in both is pretty much the same. They're both worthless.

But who, do you think, is more likely to eat something soon afterwards? If you eat the bag of candy, there's a greater psychological/physiological inclination to abstain from more food afterwards. Why? Because you just ate.

The same does not hold true of a soda. Why should you abstain from eating something after you drink that coke? You drank something. You didn't eat something.

Of course, the actual nutritional intake is pretty much the same. But there's a difference in how the two items affect you psychologically/physiologically.

You're just playing around with semantics here. It's not against the law to buy 16 apple turnovers in a supermarket which if such were one's sole or main diet would result in health problems even if there were some nutritional value.

See above. How likely is it that you will eat lunch and then 2 apple turnovers? How likely is it that you will eat lunch and, over the course of eating lunch, drink 2 large sodas?

Again, how likely is it that you'll eat an apple turnover every day?
How likely is it that you'll drink a soda every day?

How likely is it that you'll eat more than one apple turnover every day?
How likely is it that you'll drink more than one soda every day?

Which is ludicrous frankly. Are they going to forbid buying 2 or more 8oz bottles/cups in one purchase? It would cost more no doubt but hey....more revenue....

Presumably, more people will simply switch to diet soda.

Dude, what you chose to eat and drink is none of my concern as what I chose to consume is no business of yours in return.

I've given a lengthy argument in answer to LightBringer, in particular, citing both Aristotle and Aquinas to the contrary. This argument revolved around two things: 1. the idea that man is at the same time both a whole and a part and 2. the idea that our actions have public implications.

I gave 4 ways in which these actions have public implications. You've only addressed one of them.

And even if you addressed all of them, so what? The more fundamental point remains: man isn't an atomistic whole. He is a part to the whole which is the political order.

If I knew someone who had such an unhealthy diet to the point it was affecting their health to an adverse point then sure, I'd make mention of it, but as a general whole you've nothing but garbled ramblings about 'work productivity' et al which could be applied to a myriad other things on that basis. I happen to value personal choice in these matters.

This. You only mentioned one of the points I made. I made four of them. I'll expound them here:

1. National defense. Consider the following: World War III breaks out. The US doesn't have enough people in the military. They need to break out the draft. Half of the nation, let's say, is obese. Of those who are not obese, half of them are too old or are disqualified from service for other reasons. The future isn't looking too bright for America, is it?

2. Obesity causes lots and lots of expensive health problems. That guy who's been saying "It's my business, not yours, what I eat" for 50 years is now making it someone else's business. In fact, lots of other peoples' business. He needs a doctor to treat him. He needs a pharmacist to dole out prescriptions. He needs the help of his family, perhaps, which he otherwise would not have needed. He needs his insurance to pay for things which otherwise they would not have needed to pay for.

You get the idea.

3. Work productivity. Fat, unhealthy, out of shape people don't like to move much. Nuff said.

4. It changes the kind of political order.

Say "it's my business, not yours" all you want. When that guy walks out of his house, I have to look at him when he's riding around on a scooter in Wal-Mart.

Say "it's my business, not yours" all you want. Since so many fat women say that, there are fewer attractive women to pursue.

Say "it's my business, not yours" all you want. But I have to be uncomfortable when some obese person sits next to me in a movie theater or on an airplane, and his buttcheek takes up half my seat.

Let the obese person say "it's my business, not yours" all you want. But he wants to join me on an elevator. He wants to walk too slowly down an aisle or on a sidewalk, and his size won't let me pass.

"His business, not mine?" It is my business. If I have to deal with him, then it's my business.

They'd have a hard job getting it passed. If you were to do away with chocolate for example do you think people would just sit back and say "Oh well, that's what the rulers say so fair enough"? Seriously Trad, if folk like you were in power the emigration rate would be through the roof....

:idunno:

When I choose to have a drink, eat a black forest gateaux, drink a soda etc in the privacy of my own home, it's got sod all to do with you or anyone else, no matter how many times I indulge in such during a week/month or whichever else time frame.

When you say "gateaux," do you mean cake? If so, I think it should be "gateau." The "x" indicates a plural. In any case, addressed above.

Laws are already in place to regulate/legislate against substance abuse/public disorder through intoxication etc as it is. I've no problem with laws prohibiting smoking in public places by way of example.

So what's your problem? It's not as though you're arguing for a complete libertarianism. Even you admit that the state can ban things which affect public health.
 

Arthur Brain

Well-known member
Right, and I was intentionally overdrawing.

I had figured as much :D

I think that we have a right to consume foods which might harm us for example a lovely pink steak. And I understand that there is a risk in the consumption. Mostly because there's a warning label at the bottom part of the menu warning that undercooked meat can result in disease or death.

In fairness there really shouldn't be anything life threatening about a properly rare cooked steak sans allergies/conditions but I like your point. :D

On the other hand, I also believe that companies should be forced to present a reasonable amount of information to the consumer and institute practices for the safety of the consumer.

Absolutely, but I think nowadays that's generally the case? The amount of products I buy these days that have warnings about possible nut ingredients/gluten or dairy produce which may have an affect on the consumer due to allergies/vegeterianism runs into the myriad, plenty of which I wonder why they're there at all. Also there's usually a rundown of fat/sugar/salt/calorie intake etc on the side of any particular product for one to peruse before purchase? Do you think that more should still be done? (You may be right)

I don't necessarily disagree with the enforcement of the OP. Granted I think the law itself is moronic and a SG warning like on cigarettes might do the trick. But, this industry needs more regulation and I'm betting we're going to start seeing more of it in similar industries which are currently getting a lot of social media attention such as fast food.

I'd encourage a vaster and more involved/ongoing media approach into the dangers of unhealthy diet and the encouragement of healthier food intake as oppose to advertising as along the 'cigarette pack' side. Such wanes and becomes repetitive as the same slogans are used time and again and it barely becomes noticable after a while. An ongoing campaign can vary without sacrificing principle and have more diversity in approach?

And honestly I'm glad for a lot of food and drink regulations. Did you ever read "The Jungle."

No, but I do see a necessity for food/drink regulations and I'll ckeck it out.

:e4e:
 

Arthur Brain

Well-known member
According to wiki answers, there are 200 calories in a 16 oz. coca cola. I think that there are roughly as many calories in a small bag of chewy sprees (a fruit flavored candy). I believe that the nutritional content in both is pretty much the same. They're both worthless.

Probably so. Neither are ate for nutritional benefits. I don't drink a triple choc milkshake and think I'm doing my gut any favours....(I don't happen to drink em' anyway but still....)

But who, do you think, is more likely to eat something soon afterwards? If you eat the bag of candy, there's a greater psychological/physiological inclination to abstain from more food afterwards. Why? Because you just ate.

What, you've ate a few pieces of candy and that fills you up? I haven't got the biggest appetite in the world but it would take a bit more than a few 'winegums' to stop me wanting to tuck into a roast dinner.

The same does not hold true of a soda. Why should you abstain from eating something after you drink that coke? You drank something. You didn't eat something.

You're still ingesting something Trad, and sometimes fizzy drinks can make you feel more 'bloated' than any candy due to the gas.

Of course, the actual nutritional intake is pretty much the same. But there's a difference in how the two items affect you psychologically/physiologically.

All answered above. People can be affected in different ways by both.

See above. How likely is it that you will eat lunch and then 2 apple turnovers? How likely is it that you will eat lunch and, over the course of eating lunch, drink 2 large sodas?

Again, how likely is it that you'll eat an apple turnover every day?
How likely is it that you'll drink a soda every day?

How likely is it that you'll eat more than one apple turnover every day?
How likely is it that you'll drink more than one soda every day?

Supposing two apple turnovers is lunch for some? This was never about contrasting different lunchtime habits from my side anyway so what exactly is your point? Obviously if you've had a full sunday roast you're not going to be so inclined as to eat a carton of cheesecakes. Not my point to begin with. :AMR:

Presumably, more people will simply switch to diet soda.

Why?

I've given a lengthy argument in answer to LightBringer, in particular, citing both Aristotle and Aquinas to the contrary. This argument revolved around two things: 1. the idea that man is at the same time both a whole and a part and 2. the idea that our actions have public implications.

Let me save you some time Trad. I'm not interested in 'cites' or 'quotes' or general philosophical diatribes based upon others thoughts which you find 'necessary' to bring into any given debate. Frankly it's not only boring, it's tedious and pretentious and conveniently absolves you from answering anything from your own perspective alone.

I gave 4 ways in which these actions have public implications. You've only addressed one of them.

Which three did I miss?

And even if you addressed all of them, so what? The more fundamental point remains: man isn't an atomistic whole. He is a part to the whole which is the political order.

You moan that I only addressed one of them and then go 'so what' if I'd addressed all four? I'm kinda glad I apparently didn't if this is the 'response' I'd have gotten....

This. You only mentioned one of the points I made. I made four of them. I'll expound them here:

1. National defense. Consider the following: World War III breaks out. The US doesn't have enough people in the military. They need to break out the draft. Half of the nation, let's say, is obese. Of those who are not obese, half of them are too old or are disqualified from service for other reasons. The future isn't looking too bright for America, is it?

2. Obesity causes lots and lots of expensive health problems. That guy who's been saying "It's my business, not yours, what I eat" for 50 years is now making it someone else's business. In fact, lots of other peoples' business. He needs a doctor to treat him. He needs a pharmacist to dole out prescriptions. He needs the help of his family, perhaps, which he otherwise would not have needed. He needs his insurance to pay for things which otherwise they would not have needed to pay for.

You get the idea.

3. Work productivity. Fat, unhealthy, out of shape people don't like to move much. Nuff said.

4. It changes the kind of political order.

Say "it's my business, not yours" all you want. When that guy walks out of his house, I have to look at him when he's riding around on a scooter in Wal-Mart.

:doh:

If WWIII breaks out you'll be lucky if there's anything left inhabitable of the earth! I only wish I'd taken the time to read your post from start to finish as I wouldn't have even bothered to respond in such depth given the following....

Say "it's my business, not yours" all you want. Since so many fat women say that, there are fewer attractive women to pursue.

Pursue? The way you "reduce" people's worth to their physical weight so often is pathetic.

:plain:

Say "it's my business, not yours" all you want. But I have to be uncomfortable when some obese person sits next to me in a movie theater or on an airplane, and his buttcheek takes up half my seat.

It strikes me your swollen head would take up both seats, the accompanying aisle and beyond so you wouldn't have to worry about it....

Let the obese person say "it's my business, not yours" all you want. But he wants to join me on an elevator. He wants to walk too slowly down an aisle or on a sidewalk, and his size won't let me pass.

Oh boo hoo. You'll have to wait a few seconds to get off and do your shopping. What a tragedy.

"His business, not mine?" It is my business. If I have to deal with him, then it's my business.

And of course nobody ever has to deal with your business then right? (business being such an appropriate word here....)


Evidently, as with a lot else besides at this point.

When you say "gateaux," do you mean cake? If so, I think it should be "gateau." The "x" indicates a plural. In any case, addressed above.

No, I meant an outbreak of salmonella in North Dakota. :plain:

So what's your problem? It's not as though you're arguing for a complete libertarianism. Even you admit that the state can ban things which affect public health.

Right now that could well include your forum posts....

:plain:
 

Angel4Truth

New member
Hall of Fame
Why don't you and Angel 4 Truth go instead to Saudi Arabia or Syria? You would be more comfortable in a country where change and criticism of the status quo of power are not allowed.

I demand you down a big gulp, since you give me so much power.

I understand that you are weak and cannot resist the temptation and need the government to baby you.

Ill just keep forcing you to order them.
 

WizardofOz

New member
The problem with a law like this isn't that Bloomberg wants to ban soda. He doesn't. He wants to ban big cups. People (children) can still purchase gallons and gallons of soda, albeit in smaller cups. They could go to the restaurant or vendor cart and order 20 sodas in smaller cups and drink them all; no law or code has been violated. As soon as the vendor pulls out the big cup and puts soda in it, that's when we have a problem.

So, Michael Bloomberg should be mocked because this little nanny law isn't going to stop people from being unhealthy. He isn't banning sugary drinks. He wants to ban big containers for soda to go into.

And that is just plain dumb.
 

lightbringer

TOL Subscriber
The problem with a law like this isn't that Bloomberg wants to ban soda. He doesn't. He wants to ban big cups. People (children) can still purchase gallons and gallons of soda, albeit in smaller cups. They could go to the restaurant or vendor cart and order 20 sodas in smaller cups and drink them all; no law or code has been violated. As soon as the vendor pulls out the big cup and puts soda in it, that's when we have a problem.

So, Michael Bloomberg should be mocked because this little nanny law isn't going to stop people from being unhealthy. He isn't banning sugary drinks. He wants to ban big containers for soda to go into.

And that is just plain dumb.

:chuckle::thumb:
 

bybee

New member
The problem with a law like this isn't that Bloomberg wants to ban soda. He doesn't. He wants to ban big cups. People (children) can still purchase gallons and gallons of soda, albeit in smaller cups. They could go to the restaurant or vendor cart and order 20 sodas in smaller cups and drink them all; no law or code has been violated. As soon as the vendor pulls out the big cup and puts soda in it, that's when we have a problem.

So, Michael Bloomberg should be mocked because this little nanny law isn't going to stop people from being unhealthy. He isn't banning sugary drinks. He wants to ban big containers for soda to go into.

And that is just plain dumb.

Agreed!
 

Lighthouse

The Dark Knight
Gold Subscriber
Hall of Fame
The problem with a law like this isn't that Bloomberg wants to ban soda. He doesn't. He wants to ban big cups. People (children) can still purchase gallons and gallons of soda, albeit in smaller cups. They could go to the restaurant or vendor cart and order 20 sodas in smaller cups and drink them all; no law or code has been violated. As soon as the vendor pulls out the big cup and puts soda in it, that's when we have a problem.

So, Michael Bloomberg should be mocked because this little nanny law isn't going to stop people from being unhealthy. He isn't banning sugary drinks. He wants to ban big containers for soda to go into.

And that is just plain dumb.
Exactly!
 

Memento Mori

New member
The problem with a law like this isn't that Bloomberg wants to ban soda. He doesn't. He wants to ban big cups. People (children) can still purchase gallons and gallons of soda, albeit in smaller cups. They could go to the restaurant or vendor cart and order 20 sodas in smaller cups and drink them all; no law or code has been violated. As soon as the vendor pulls out the big cup and puts soda in it, that's when we have a problem.

So, Michael Bloomberg should be mocked because this little nanny law isn't going to stop people from being unhealthy. He isn't banning sugary drinks. He wants to ban big containers for soda to go into.

And that is just plain dumb.

Actually, from a fiscal standpoint, it's kind of smart. When you look at it like that it's genius. QT just introduced the 69 cent 32oz. Where as the 16oz is 49c, I believe.

And if I recall, most fast food restaurants have a cheaper per-ounce price on larger vs small drinks. But it has been a while since I've been to a fast food restaurant.

"Sorry folks. We have to make more money because we can't sell you a large drink!"
 

The Barbarian

BANNED
Banned
(Barbarian, having tilled the garden in the sun, downs a 7-11 Double Gulp of Arizona Watermelon)

Come and get me, Bloomberg.
 

WizardofOz

New member
Actually, from a fiscal standpoint, it's kind of smart. When you look at it like that it's genius. QT just introduced the 69 cent 32oz. Where as the 16oz is 49c, I believe.

And if I recall, most fast food restaurants have a cheaper per-ounce price on larger vs small drinks. But it has been a while since I've been to a fast food restaurant.

"Sorry folks. We have to make more money because we can't sell you a large drink!"

:chuckle: This is probably all the result of Bloomberg being approached by a convincing soft-drink lobbyist. ;)
 

Memento Mori

New member
:chuckle: This is probably all the result of Bloomberg being approached by a convincing soft-drink lobbyist. ;)

Well my guess would be it's backwards unless there's an unpleasant result from the law. Like people not going to stores or driving that extra little distance to somewhere that they can get larger drinks.

But I could see smaller portions in greater quantities being sold like White Castle. Plus it also looks good on sales numbers.
 

Traditio

BANNED
Banned
AB: I answer you very simply. In the Politics, Aristotle says that if a man truly is suited to live alone, he either must be a beast or a god. As such, there is pretty much no such thing as an "atomistic, totally free" man. Man must be a part of the state. The State has the right of legislation over him, and so long as a law meets the criterion of law, he must obey.

In this case:

Do you deny that the law is a prudential dictate of reason? No.
Do you deny that it is promulgated? No.
Do you deny that it is issued by a legitimate sovereign? No.
Do you deny that it is for the common good? No.*

You can say that it takes away too much "freedom," but you can't deny that it's for the common good. People actually would be better off if they drank less soda.

Therefore, I conclude: it is a valid law and it must be obeyed.

*These are the 4 criteria of law in ST I-II, q. 90.
 

Lighthouse

The Dark Knight
Gold Subscriber
Hall of Fame
AB: I answer you very simply. In the Politics, Aristotle says that if a man truly is suited to live alone, he either must be a beast or a god. As such, there is pretty much no such thing as an "atomistic, totally free" man. Man must be a part of the state. The State has the right of legislation over him, and so long as a law meets the criterion of law, he must obey.

In this case:

Do you deny that the law is a prudential dictate of reason? No.
Do you deny that it is promulgated? No.
Do you deny that it is issued by a legitimate sovereign? No.
Do you deny that it is for the common good? No.*

You can say that it takes away too much "freedom," but you can't deny that it's for the common good. People actually would be better off if they drank less soda.

Therefore, I conclude: it is a valid law and it must be obeyed.

*These are the 4 criteria of law in ST I-II, q. 90.
Still a fool, I see.
 
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