toldailytopic: Large Hadron Collider: cool experiment or doomsday machine?

[Town Heretic]

I read something about scientists wanting to recreate conditions just after the big bang. I don't know anything about that really, but I did want to put it in the record that I'm rooting for a galaxy swallowing black hole :crackup:

You gave Punisher your password again, didn't you...:squint:

Ah, science. The same sort of cry went up when the first atomic bomb was exploded and look at how well that turned out.

:think:

Perhaps not my finest turn of phrase then. lain:

 

[Flipper]

Flipper... is it theoretically possible that a machine like the Hadron Collider COULD create a reaction (like a larger black hole) that couldn't be stopped and end the world? (just for sake of si-fi discussion)

Not really, for two good reasons.

First, gravity is an amazingly weak force when compared to the other three forces, and its strength is proportionate to the mass of the gravity-exerting object.
So a subatomic black hole, even if it were to be stable, would exert a puny force indeed as it would have the mass of exactly two hydrogen protons, not really large enough to exert a measurable gravitational effect on any particles around it.

These black holes are all going to be very, very small. Although the energies required at accelerators like CERN are huge, the actual amount of matter used in the beams is tiny. Fermilab could be powered for several years with a bbq-gas-cylinder-sized bottle of hydrogen. So there's not much inertial mass going into these beams which is good, otherwise they couldn't be accelerated up to near-relativistic speeds.

That means that all the black holes will be very, very small, which means they'll be very unstable. It also means that some hypothetically stable black hole won't just sit there, it would be moving at atmospheric escape velocities and will pass through the earth unnoticed and into space.

I also seem to recall reading a paper that worked out what would happen if one of these micro black holes were to somehow work its way down to the center of the earth where planetary matter is most dense, and if it defied theoretical expectations by a) remaining stable and b) accreting mass (which technically shouldn't be possible until a black hole is created above a certain size). They figured out it would be on the order of hundreds of thousands, if not millions of years before it would become big enough to be a threat. I am sorry I can't be more precise but I thought I had saved a copy; apparently not.

The cooler sci fi answer is if some totally unforeseen interaction were to happen, the black hole would sink into the center of the earth where it would overwhelm the planet in a matter of weeks, tearing it apart in gargantuan earthquakes before collapsing us into a accretion disk of molten rubble.

 

[The Berean]

Not really, for two good reasons.

First, gravity is an amazingly weak force when compared to the other three forces, and its strength is proportionate to the mass of the gravity-exerting object.
So a subatomic black hole, even if it were to be stable, would exert a puny force indeed as it would have the mass of exactly two hydrogen protons, not really large enough to exert a measurable gravitational effect on any particles around it.

These black holes are all going to be very, very small. Although the energies required at accelerators like CERN are huge, the actual amount of matter used in the beams is tiny. Fermilab could be powered for several years with a bbq-gas-cylinder-sized bottle of hydrogen. So there's not much inertial mass going into these beams which is good, otherwise they couldn't be accelerated up to near-relativistic speeds.

That means that all the black holes will be very, very small, which means they'll be very unstable. It also means that some hypothetically stable black hole won't just sit there, it would be moving at atmospheric escape velocities and will pass through the earth unnoticed and into space.

I also seem to recall reading a paper that worked out what would happen if one of these micro black holes were to somehow work its way down to the center of the earth where planetary matter is most dense, and if it defied theoretical expectations by a) remaining stable and b) accreting mass (which technically shouldn't be possible until a black hole is created above a certain size). They figured out it would be on the order of hundreds of thousands, if not millions of years before it would become big enough to be a threat. I am sorry I can't be more precise but I thought I had saved a copy; apparently not.

The cooler sci fi answer is if some totally unforeseen interaction were to happen, the black hole would sink into the center of the earth where it would overwhelm the planet in a matter of weeks, tearing it apart in gargantuan earthquakes before collapsing us into a accretion disk of molten rubble.

So basically what happened to the planet Vulcan in the new Star Trek movie. :think: Thank goodness we don't have any "red matter" to screw things up with.

 

[MacGyver]

Flipper... is it theoretically possible that a machine like the Hadron Collider COULD create a reaction (like a larger black hole) that couldn't be stopped and end the world? (just for sake of si-fi discussion)

I haven't read the rest of the thread, but I wanted to respond to this post. Sorry the answer isn't more creative, but no. It's not possible, not even theoretically. We're smashing hadrons. A neutron is the largest hadron, and it's 100,000 times smaller than an atom. If black holes are created the energy will be so low that they'll evaporate in a fraction of a second.

As for other possible reactions, I don't know (not that I'm an expert on what I said in the last paragraph). However, I seriously doubt the top scientists are in collusion to risk something like this. If there was even the tiniest chance of it destroying the world, or even killing a single person, they wouldn't have built this thing. Watch interviews from people working at and associated with the LHC. They'll all tell you there's nothing to worry about.

 

[Zeke]

:chuckle: That's pretty funny. I'm gonna check daily. If I ever see "YES", then that means I'm viewing it from another dimension and I'll have to become a disciple of Freelight.

I wonder what that dispensation would be called, dispensational light!

 

[Nathon Detroit]

The cooler sci fi answer is if some totally unforeseen interaction were to happen, the black hole would sink into the center of the earth where it would overwhelm the planet in a matter of weeks, tearing it apart in gargantuan earthquakes before collapsing us into a accretion disk of molten rubble.

:ha: now that's more like it! :chuckle:

 

[El DLo]

I don't quite know where people got the notion that this device could destroy the world from. Yes it simulates circumstances in the universe on an observable level, but people seem to think a giant black hole is going to appear and suck up the planet. Yes, the machine is capable of creating black holes, but these black holes are no bigger than a few atoms and only last for millionths of a second. It's not like *BOOM* a swirling dark cloud of doom the size of Manhattan starts to devour the world. It just can't happen.

 

[bybee]

Hmmmm

Hmmmm

I don't quite know where people got the notion that this device could destroy the world from. Yes it simulates circumstances in the universe on an observable level, but people seem to think a giant black hole is going to appear and suck up the planet. Yes, the machine is capable of creating black holes, but these black holes are no bigger than a few atoms and only last for millionths of a second. It's not like *BOOM* a swirling dark cloud of doom the size of Manhattan starts to devour the world. It just can't happen.

That is very comforting! bybee

 

[Ecumenicist]

I dunno about that. Black holes, by definition, form because they have enough mass to collapse in on themselves. Seems to me that if something has enough mass to collapse on itself, gathering more mass would only make it denser, so it attracts more mass...

People make it sound like its just a proton combining with an anti-proton.

Anyway, this is a much more productive thing to be paranoid about than Obama Muslim relocation camps and government takeover of healthcare.

 

[El DLo]

I dunno about that. Black holes, by definition, form because they have enough mass to collapse in on themselves. Seems to me that if something has enough mass to collapse on itself, gathering more mass would only make it denser, so it attracts more mass...

People make it sound like its just a proton combining with an anti-proton.

Anyway, this is a much more productive thing to be paranoid about than Obama Muslim relocation camps and government takeover of healthcare.

Okay, maybe it can happen in theory, but I'd like to imagine that the quantum physicists that built this thing, some of the brightest minds in the world, would have taken preventative measures to ensure that there would never be an environment within the collider that would allow for that to happen.

 

[Alate_One]

A thread on the LHC and nobody posted the rap? How sad. :chuckle:

LHC Rap

Anyway I'm not too worried about the LHC destroying the universe.

 

[MacGyver]

I don't quite know where people got the notion that this device could destroy the world from. [...] Yes, the machine is capable of creating black holes...

That's where the notion likely came from. People hearing about its ability to create black holes and, people being people, taking the idea to its extreme.

But as I said earlier, and as you said in your last post, the physicists responsible for this machine surely took some sort of preventive measures.

 

[Nick M]

Don't black holes expand as they suck in light and matter? How can they contain it?

The invisible man in the sky sends people there that don't want to be with him.

Similar fears existed when scientists first split the atom - there was a very real fear that the first atomic bomb would ignite the atmosphere.

In fact, period newspaper accounts of the first automobiles approaching sixty miles an hour (and then again at 100 mph) had people expressing fears that dogs would lie down with cats, the end of the world would come and women would get the vote.

I guess one out of three ain't too bad. :darwinsm:

When our spaceship goes faster than light(assuming Israel never repents) those that think they will no longer experience duration can leave for 100 years, and we can see if they aged. (they will)

 

[Nick M]

So basically what happened to the planet Vulcan in the new Star Trek movie. :think: Thank goodness we don't have any "red matter" to screw things up with.

That was the genesis planet you nerd.

 

[Persephone66]

That was the genesis planet you nerd.

Actually Nick, had you seen the most recent Star Trek movie, you would know it was indeed Vulcan and they were going to do the same thing to Earth.

 

[Dogbean]

Some fear this machine will cause an unstoppable reaction (like a black hole) that will eventually swallow up the earth and end reality as we know it.

Most people go to work and know that if they mess up they might get fired. These guys go to work knowing that if they mess up they might destroy the world.

If it destroys the world and kills us all, that just gets me to Heaven that much sooner. I'm all for it! Let the experiments continue!

 

[Dogbean]

Actually, according to Revelation the earth will not be destroyed by a black hole from within....it says the world will be destroyed by fire. I'm thinking nuclear war, asteroid impact, some type of worldwide volcanic event, or the sun has some type of episode and burns us all.

 

[Lighthouse]

I predict that it will not do what they want it to do.

 

[Stripe]

What I really want to know is how one speeds up or slows down a thing that has no mass ...

 

[Ecumenicist]

Okay, maybe it can happen in theory, but I'd like to imagine that the quantum physicists that built this thing, some of the brightest minds in the world, would have taken preventative measures to ensure that there would never be an environment within the collider that would allow for that to happen.

I'd like to think that the brightest economists in the world would have taken preventative measures to ensure an economic collapse would never happen as well...

I'm a big fan of physics and the LHC, so I'm not saying I believe the world will be consumed by a black hole, I'm just sayin' 2012 is coming up and all...