toldailytopic: Jesus was a Jew, so therefore shouldn't Christians follow Him and be J

Nathon Detroit

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The TheologyOnline.com TOPIC OF THE DAY for October 25th, 2012 04:11 AM


toldailytopic: Jesus was a Jew, so therefore shouldn't Christians follow Him and be Jewish as well?






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tetelestai

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....unless you believe Heaven and Earth have passed away....

Heaven and earth (old covenant) have passed away, we live in the new Heavens and the new earth (new covenant)

The new covenant was put in place with the shed blood of Christ Jesus.

The old covenant (which included the rituals, feasts, holidays, etc) was a shadow of what was to come.

(Col 2:16-17) 16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.
 

lifeisgood

New member
Galatians 3:28 -- There can be neither Jew nor Greek, there can be neither bond nor free, there can be no male and female; for ye all are one man in Christ Jesus.
 

JonahofAkron

New member
Heaven and earth (old covenant) have passed away, we live in the new Heavens and the new earth (new covenant)

The new covenant was put in place with the shed blood of Christ Jesus.

The old covenant (which included the rituals, feasts, holidays, etc) was a shadow of what was to come.

(Col 2:16-17) 16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.
I'm not sure how you get this understanding....Messiah is discussing a real vanishing.....the Law is eternal. Your interpretation is ridiculously off the mark. That goes for what you say about Colossians 2-if they were pagans before, how can Paul be telling them not to go back to Torah? His declaration is verses 16 and 17 are a positive statement about Torah, not a negative. The 'however' or 'but' in most translations is an interpretive addition and is not in the Greek texts, so the rendering of the verse makes much more sense; the festivals, eat and drinking Kosher, new moons, and sabbaths are all shadows of the Messiah and their reality is found in Him. This is not a negative thing, but a positive. When we do all of those things, we are living Him out.
 

ChristNU

New member
The TheologyOnline.com TOPIC OF THE DAY for October 25th, 2012 04:11 AM


toldailytopic: Jesus was a Jew, so therefore shouldn't Christians follow Him and be Jewish as well?


A persons race or nationality is irrelevant. And if a 'Christian' converts to Judaism they are no longer a Christian.
 

Silent Hunter

Well-known member
Heaven and earth (old covenant) have passed away, we live in the new Heavens and the new earth (new covenant)

The new covenant was put in place with the shed blood of Christ Jesus.

The old covenant (which included the rituals, feasts, holidays, etc) was a shadow of what was to come.

(Col 2:16-17) 16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.
. . . the bible is 100% literal . . . at least until a christian somewhere needs a figurative interpretation to justify their theology . . . :sigh:.

:kookoo:
 

Nathon Detroit

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
. . . the bible is 100% literal . . . at least until a christian somewhere needs a figurative interpretation to justify their theology . . . :sigh:.

:kookoo:
First of all nobody claims the Bible is 100% literal, there are thousands of figurative examples given in the the Bible. I.e., Jesus was referred to as the "bread of Life", that doesn't mean He was actually a loaf of bread.

Furthermore...
The Bible is a story. It has a beginning, a middle, and predicted end. And as the story progresses things change (as would be expected). God chose Israel as His people, yet after continuous rejection culminating in the rejection of their Messiah God set aside Israel and turned to the gentiles through the apostle Paul. This new covenant is discussed in extreme detail in the New Testament but primarily in the Paul's epistles as he was the chosen apostle for that dispensation.

In conclusion... Christians don't become Jews because Jesus instructed them NOT TO through the apostle Paul. That doesn't make the things that happened before any less literal, instead it merely highlights how God works within the fabric of reality reacting and adjusting to man's obedience or disobedience.
 

Junius Gallio

New member
Telos can mean goal, aim, or purpose...or even culmination. Matthew 5.17-19 pretty much solidifies what Messiah thinks about the issue....unless you believe Heaven and Earth have passed away....

In Matt 5:17-19, Jesus is speaking to Jews--participants in the Mosaic covenant. Gentiles have never been part of that covenant. Were I a Christian, I would still not be a member of "the house of Jacob" or "the children of Israel." I would, as a gentile Christian, be accounted as a child of Abraham, not of Israel.

Jews who follow Jesus as messiah still have the Law--not as a condemnation, but as part of the covenant traditionally made at the time of Moses. That covenant will never apply to me, but just because God made a new covenant does not make the old covenant go away.
 

JonahofAkron

New member
First of all nobody claims the Bible is 100% literal, there are thousands of figurative examples given in the the Bible. I.e., Jesus was referred to as the "bread of Life", that doesn't mean He was actually a loaf of bread.

Furthermore...
The Bible is a story. It has a beginning, a middle, and predicted end. And as the story progresses things change (as would be expected). God chose Israel as His people, yet after continuous rejection culminating in the rejection of their Messiah God set aside Israel and turned to the gentiles through the apostle Paul. This new covenant is discussed in extreme detail in the New Testament but primarily in the Paul's epistles as he was the chosen apostle for that dispensation.

In conclusion... Christians don't become Jews because Jesus instructed them NOT TO through the apostle Paul. That doesn't make the things that happened before any less literal, instead it merely highlights how God works within the fabric of reality reacting and adjusting to man's obedience or disobedience.
Jeremiah 31.33-34 seems to have a different idea on how God will be treating Israel. I'm not sure I can agree with a 'setting aside' mentality. It isn't supported biblically.
 

JonahofAkron

New member
Well, for one, and it's a big one, the rejection of Jesus Christ as Messiah.

http://www.aish.com/jw/s/48892792.html
I see where you're coming from. I don't know that those are mutually exclusive positions, though. We see thousands of Jews following Messiah before and after His ascension, so what you're saying can't be backed by history.

Let's talk about how Paul saw it, though. That seems to be the point of contention for all of us. How would Paul have viewed 'conversion'? What points do you make concerning Paul's view?
 

JonahofAkron

New member
He wished that those who insisted that Gentile believers must convert would emasculate themselves. That doesn't precisely sound encouraging.
That's very true. I think it has to do with what Paul believed about circumcision (the ritual meaning of the word) rather than the conversion....something he clearly says takes place in the heart.
 

Junius Gallio

New member
That's very true. I think it has to do with what Paul believed about circumcision (the ritual meaning of the word) rather than the conversion....something he clearly says takes place in the heart.
It's more than that. Paul himself kept the law. Even as a Christian, he felt that the law applied to him, because he was Jewish. Paul encouraged other Jews who became Christians to keep the law (such as Timothy, whose mother was Jewish, but who had not been circumcised). He never asked Gentiles to keep the law, and got quite irate at those who did--or even at folks like Peter, who for a while stopped eating at the communal meal with Gentiles.
 

Nathon Detroit

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Jeremiah 31.33-34 seems to have a different idea on how God will be treating Israel. I'm not sure I can agree with a 'setting aside' mentality. It isn't supported biblically.
It isn't supported biblically?? Almost the entire New Testament is devoted to the topic.

And as far as Jeremiah is concerned it holds one of the biggest keys of all...

Jer 18:5 Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying: 6 “O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter?” says the Lord. “Look, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel! 7 The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 9 And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10 if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.

Israel's continual disobedience caused God to set them aside. It's not permanent however. God will return to them when He is done dealing with the gentiles.

Romans 11:11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. 12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!
13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. 15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written
 
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