toldailytopic: Jesus was a Jew, so therefore shouldn't Christians follow Him and be J

[vegascowboy]

First of all nobody claims the Bible is 100% literal, there are thousands of figurative examples given in the the Bible. I.e., Jesus was referred to as the "bread of Life", that doesn't mean He was actually a loaf of bread.

Furthermore...
The Bible is a story. It has a beginning, a middle, and predicted end. And as the story progresses things change (as would be expected). God chose Israel as His people, yet after continuous rejection culminating in the rejection of their Messiah God set aside Israel and turned to the gentiles through the apostle Paul. This new covenant is discussed in extreme detail in the New Testament but primarily in the Paul's epistles as he was the chosen apostle for that dispensation.

In conclusion... Christians don't become Jews because Jesus instructed them NOT TO through the apostle Paul. That doesn't make the things that happened before any less literal, instead it merely highlights how God works within the fabric of reality reacting and adjusting to man's obedience or disobedience.

There you go again...being all truthful...sheesh!

 

[ChristNU]

I see where you're coming from. I don't know that those are mutually exclusive positions, though. We see thousands of Jews following Messiah before and after His ascension, so what you're saying can't be backed by history.

Let's talk about how Paul saw it, though. That seems to be the point of contention for all of us. How would Paul have viewed 'conversion'? What points do you make concerning Paul's view?

Paul would view conversion as all Christians do; the personal experience of meeting the living, risen Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ... believing and receiving Him.

The religion of Judaism and Christianity are absolutely mutually exclusive. One is based in a Living Messiah, Jesus Christ...the other rejects that very Person as the Messiah.

 

[Silent Hunter]

First of all nobody claims the Bible is 100% literal, there are thousands of figurative examples given in the the Bible. I.e., Jesus was referred to as the "bread of Life", that doesn't mean He was actually a loaf of bread.

I suppose I forgot to heap enough sarcasm on thus preventing you from reading my meanng here less than 100% literal. I was alluding to the interpretation of "Heaven and earth (old covenant) have passed away, we live in the new Heavens and the new earth (new covenant)" in reference to Matthew 5:17-19 that the interpreter (tetelestai) sees figuratively rather than literally.

Furthermore...
The Bible is a story. It has a beginning, a middle, and predicted end. And as the story progresses things change (as would be expected). God chose Israel as His people, yet after continuous rejection culminating in the rejection of their Messiah God set aside Israel and turned to the gentiles through the apostle Paul. This new covenant is discussed in extreme detail in the New Testament but primarily in the Paul's epistles as he was the chosen apostle for that dispensation.

In conclusion... Christians don't become Jews because Jesus instructed them NOT TO through the apostle Paul. That doesn't make the things that happened before any less literal, instead it merely highlights how God works within the fabric of reality reacting and adjusting to man's obedience or disobedience.

Yeah, yeah . . . I got all that in Sunday school . . .

Thanks for the clarification though . . . :e4e:.

 

[tetelestai]

if they were pagans before, how can Paul be telling them not to go back to Torah?

Pagans didn't have Sabbaths.

What makes you think the Colossians were pagans?

Paul said the following to the Colossians:

(Col 3:11) Here there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.

His declaration is verses 16 and 17 are a positive statement about Torah, not a negative.

No, Paul is explaining to the Colossians that there is no need to observe shadows that Christ Jesus fulfilled.

the festivals, eat and drinking Kosher, new moons, and sabbaths are all shadows of the Messiah and their reality is found in Him.

Christ fulfilled the 7 feasts of Israel.

[/QUOTE] This is not a negative thing, but a positive. When we do all of those things, we are living Him out.[/QUOTE]

No, when you "do all those things", you do the same as the Jews, which is a denial of the finished work of Christ Jesus.

 

[Sherman]

The TheologyOnline.com TOPIC OF THE DAY for October 25th, 2012 04:11 AM

toldailytopic: Jesus was a Jew, so therefore shouldn't Christians follow Him and be Jewish as well?

Nope. For one the Jews rejected Jesus, their messiah. Secondly, Christ's emissary, Paul, specifically instructed them NOT TO. He did so under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, third person of the Trinity. In other words God instructed the church not to become Jews through Paul.




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[JonahofAkron]

Paul would view conversion as all Christians do; the personal experience of meeting the living, risen Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ... believing and receiving Him.

I was talking about conversion to Judaism, not conversion to Christianity.

The religion of Judaism and Christianity are absolutely mutually exclusive. One is based in a Living Messiah, Jesus Christ...the other rejects that very Person as the Messiah.

They seem to be now, yes. But they weren't in the middle of the first century. Judaism didn't reject Jesus at this point. That came later.

 

[JonahofAkron]

Pagans didn't have Sabbaths.

Ok. If you say so.

What makes you think the Colossians were pagans?

Verse 11-14 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the bill of charges (sins) that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

They were uncircumcised.....

Paul said the following to the Colossians:

(Col 3:11) Here there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.

He also said there was no male and female....does that mean there is actually no difference between man and woman? Obviously not. You're interpreting it wrong.

No, Paul is explaining to the Colossians that there is no need to observe shadows that Christ Jesus fulfilled.

You only read it that way because of the conjunction 'but' and your misunderstanding about who the recipients of this letter are.

Christ fulfilled the 7 feasts of Israel.

All 7? When? I was aware of a physical fulfillment of the first 4, but certainly not the last 3...then again, didn't you say that earth and heaven passed away?....

No, when you "do all those things", you do the same as the Jews, which is a denial of the finished work of Christ Jesus.

Consider that Jesus was Jewish and asked us to live in the same way He did....how does your summary and analysis stack up to that? I don't understand....especially considering His disciples still did the same when He left, even Paul.

 

[ChristNU]

I was talking about conversion to Judaism, not conversion to Christianity.

The one makes the other obvious. And specific to you, the one makes your mixed belief impossible.

They seem to be now, yes. But they weren't in the middle of the first century. Judaism didn't reject Jesus at this point. That came later.

You need to keep the distinction between religion and race or nationality clear in your thinking....or else you will end up, well, you will end up where you are.

 

[ChristNU]

He also said there was no male and female....does that mean there is actually no difference between man and woman?

Yes, that is exactly what it means....from Gods POV. You are looking at it from the wrong POV.

 

[Nick M]

toldailytopic: Jesus was a Jew, so therefore shouldn't Christians follow Him and be Jewish as well?

Well, first we started with this, and it lasted a long time.

Genesis 12

3 I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you; And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”

John 4

22 You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews.

But then this happened.

Acts 13

44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God. 45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy; and contradicting and blaspheming, they opposed the things spoken by Paul. 46 Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, “It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles.

Leading to this.


Romans 11:11

11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles.

So, no.

 

[Dena]

What constitutes a 'conversion to Judaism'?

You want his opinion or do you want to know how it's done?

 

[Dena]

The TheologyOnline.com TOPIC OF THE DAY for October 25th, 2012 04:11 AM

toldailytopic: Jesus was a Jew, so therefore shouldn't Christians follow Him and be Jewish as well?

Take the topic above and run with it! Slice it, dice it, give us your general thoughts about it. Everyday there will be a new TOL Topic of the Day.
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Didn't Paul say no?

 

[JonahofAkron]

You want his opinion or do you want to know how it's done?

I was looking for the opinion. Thank you, though. I believe that s/he is far off the mark about what's even being discussed. I was hoping to bring out the point about conversion requiring circumcision to move into the next point, but it seems moot now. Rough, huh?

 

[JonahofAkron]

Didn't Paul say no?

I think Paul said yes.

 

[Nick M]

Didn't Paul say no?

He did.

So should we listen to him, or the Lord Jesus Christ and the prophets before him?

 

[noguru]

Being a Jewish Christian would be something like the Unitarian view. I did that for several years. But I could not reconcile what Jesus being the Messiah meant if He was not "God among us". And if He was not "God among us" then how could He be the messiah.

 

[steko]

Not only 'was' Jesus a Jew.....He still is a Jew and He's returning as a Jew and will forever be a Jew.
Gentiles who become Christians cannot change their origin. They are non-Jewish Christians and do not become Jews.

 

[surrender]

toldailytopic: Jesus was a Jew, so therefore shouldn't Christians follow Him and be Jewish as well?

Isn’t one born Jewish? Do you mean, should Christians practice Judaism like Jesus did? No one has been able to practice Judaism like Jesus did since the destruction of the temple. If God wanted the practice to continue, He’d make sure there was a temple in Jerusalem.

 

[Dena]

Not only 'was' Jesus a Jew.....He still is a Jew

So god is a Jew or do you not believe Jesus is God?

 

[steko]

So god is a Jew or do you not believe Jesus is God?

GOD in His pure essence is infinite Spirit.
In the beginning and afterwards, GOD revealed Himself to man as the 'Memra'/ 'Messenger of YHVH' in an apparent human form.
In the miraculous conception of the man Jesus, the 'Memra' added literal human flesh, which was Jewish, to His person.
The 'Memra' had no beginning.
The Jewish humanity had a beginning.
The Jewish man, Jesus/Yeshua and the infinite 'Memra'/D'var/Logos
are eternally joined as one 'person'.
Yes GOD is a Jew.

"How odd of GOD to choose the Jew,
yet, not quite so odd as those who choose the Jewish GOD
but hate the Jew."-unknown author