:thumb:
Clearly neither do you.
Scripture?
Or God changed His mind; He's God, He's sovereign, He can do that.
toldailytopic: Is there a difference between the Rapture and the Second Coming?
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
- Start date
Again, the Greek word is "Apostaisa"
Again, Josephus used the exact same word Paul used "Apostaisa" to describe the Jewish Revolt that began in 66AD.
Then why do you dispensationalists claim that Jesus is going to come back to planet earth and set up a kingdom here?
In hindsight it is evident that Paul was speaking of the Jewish Revolt, which was a political rebellion.
The Man of Lawlessness was someone inside of Jerusalem in 66AD.
Before the Romans killed and tortured the Jews, over half a million Jews were killed from the civil war that was taking place inside the city.
HERE .....have fun finding it
So you deny that Josephus used the word "Apostaisa" ?
The burden is on you.
No one denies what Josephus wrote.
Are you this desperate to defend your dispensationalism?
The guy has no theological background. By his own admittance, he takes notes of what other dispensationalists tell him.
All he did was copy and paste all the arguments that previous dispensationalists have used.
Do you ever actually read the links you provide? Most of the times the links you provided defeat you.
The guy is nothing more than a parrot.
If you disagree with me, prove me wrong.
So far, all you do is provide links to websites you don't read, and/or resort to ad hominem.
I have provided you what the Jewish historian Josephus wrote, and have showed you that what Josephus wrote lines up perfectly with what the Apostel Paul wrote, and what Jesus said.
Because what I post is a big problem for your dispensationalism, you don't like it.
All you do is parrot the words of Darby, Scofield, Chafer, Anderson, Stam, and Bullinger.
Not from dispensationalists.
That you don't get the immanency of the Revelation is not surprising.
Revelation was written to seven churches that existed in Asia Minor in the first century.
Jesus told John "the time was at hand". Jesus told the churches that He was coming soon. Jesus told John not to seal the scroll because the time was at hand.
Jesus said the following to the Church at Philadelphia:
(Rev 3:11) I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown.
You make Jesus a liar, by claiming that Jesus did not come soon to the church at Philadelphia.
Jesus came in 70AD just like He said He would to the church in Philadelphia. And, just like He told His Disciples He would come before some of them passed away.
This is where you being brainwashed by dispensationalism hurts you.
The coming of Jesus in 70AD was the Roman army destroying Jerusalem.
We know that it happened. There is not one stone left standing of the temple.
John was on the island of Patmos receiving the Revelation of Christ Jesus so that John could give the Revelation to the Seven Churches
You're a dispensationalist.
I'm thinking of starting a Rehab Center for Dispensationalists.
Yep, and you will be wrong just like the thousands of dispensationalists before you.
Again, if proper English and Greek grammar are used, then Jesus would have said "That Generation" for what you say above to be true.
Jesus did NOT say "That Generation", Jesus specifically said "This Generation"
So, are you going to throw the rules of English and Greek grammar out the window to back your claim?
From your link:
"The context of Matthew 24:34 is the generation that sees the events coming to pass regarding the end of the age and the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus. THIS generation shall not pass until all the events are fulfilled."
Thanks for yet another link that shows a desperate dispensationalist throwing the rules of English grammar out the window in an attempt to defend his dispensationalism.
Nope.
I have spent a lot of hours just on Matthew 24:34
Again, just try to use proper English or Greek grammar to prove me wrong?
Jesus was referring to His contemporaries when He used the phrase "This Generation"
In 70AD
BTW, it's symbolic....unless of course you want to believe that actual stars fall to planet earth.
Do you know how big the smallest star is compared to planet earth?
Our sun is considered a small star.
The following shows the size of our sun compared to planet earth:
Now lets compare our sun to bigger stars:
So Mr. Literal Dispensationalist...... how do the stars fall from the sky?
Your entire belief system (dispensationalism) is built around God allegedly promising Jews land in the Middle East in the yet future.
Now, you can't defend Matt 24:34, so you use the ole "God can change His mind" routine.
Jesus said the following
(Matt 24:34 KJV) Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Do you know what "Verily" means?
You want us to believe that Jesus said "Verily I say unto you", but then changed His mind.
Well.....at least your not trying to make the word "This" mean "That".
However, you are still wrong.
Sorry dispy's, but Matt 24:34 by itself refutes your entire belief system.
Poor Stan is trying desperately to do everything he can to discredit Josephus.
Stan is scared of what Josephus wrote because it ruins Stan's dispensationalism.
Stan is more interested in defending what John Nelson Darby wrote. In order to do that, Stan has to attack Josephus because what Josephus wrote refutes what Darby wrote, and Stan follows Darby.
It's really that simple.
Comets and meteors.
Angels
(Job 38:7) When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Unless you literal dispies want to claim that literal stars literally sang.
(Rev 12:4) Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born.
Dispies want to take everything literal.
In the above verse a tail sweeps a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to earth.
Looking at the pictures in my previous post that show the size of planet earth compared to the sun and other stars, the dispensationalist wants us to believe that some giant tail of a literal dragon literally flung one third of all the stars to planet earth.
:bang:
Dispies want to take everything literal.
In the above verse a tail sweeps a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to earth.
Looking at the pictures in my previous post that show the size of planet earth compared to the sun and other stars, the dispensationalist wants us to believe that some giant tail of a literal dragon literally flung one third of all the stars to planet earth.
:bang:
Here is a link to Section 4 of Josephus' Life, in Greek:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0149:whiston+section=4
And here is a link to Section 4 of Josephus' Life, in English:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0150:whiston+section=4
This is the relevant passage, in Greek, followed by the English translation:
Greek: "Καταλαμβάνω δ᾽ ἤδη νεωτερισμῶν ἀρχὰς καὶ πολλοὺς ἐπὶ τῇ Ῥωμαίων ἀποστάσει μέγα φρονοῦντας."
English: "And now I perceived innovations were already begun, and that there were a great many very much elevated in hopes of a revolt from the Romans."
English: "And now I perceived innovations were already begun, and that there were a great many very much elevated in hopes of a revolt from the Romans."
I've put the word in question in bold type. "ἀποστάσει" (transliterated "apostasia") is in fact the same word that Paul uses in 2 Thess 2:3, and Strong's Concordance defines this word as "defection, apostasy, revolt". Here is a link to Strong's entry for the word:
http://biblesuite.com/greek/646.htm
genuineoriginal
New member
Yes. The second coming being the resurrection and the rapture being the resurrection at the second coming are from scripture.
No, they don't. :idunno:
Most of the time a passage can be read once and the distinction between a description of real events and a metaphor is plainly obvious. Sometimes a passage can be both at the same time (see yours - Rev 12:4).
But to suggest that people read everything as if it were literal is plain old nonsense. You should stop doing that. :up:
No, we don't. You should stop saying we do. :up:
That verse is about angels.
These ones are about meteors:
Psa 105:32
He gave them hail for rain,
And flaming fire in their land.
Psa 78:48
He also gave up their cattle to the hail,
And their flocks to fiery lightning.
Psa 18:12-13
From the brightness before Him,
His thick clouds passed with hailstones and coals of fire.
The LORD thundered from heaven,
And the Most High uttered His voice,
Hailstones and coals of fire.
Exd 9:24
So there was hail, and fire mingled with the hail, so very heavy that there was none like it in all the land of Egypt since it became a nation.
He gave them hail for rain,
And flaming fire in their land.
Psa 78:48
He also gave up their cattle to the hail,
And their flocks to fiery lightning.
Psa 18:12-13
From the brightness before Him,
His thick clouds passed with hailstones and coals of fire.
The LORD thundered from heaven,
And the Most High uttered His voice,
Hailstones and coals of fire.
Exd 9:24
So there was hail, and fire mingled with the hail, so very heavy that there was none like it in all the land of Egypt since it became a nation.
And likely this one as well:
Jos 10:11
And it happened, as they fled before Israel and were on the descent of Beth Horon, that the LORD cast down large hailstones from heaven on them as far as Azekah, and they died. There were more who died from the hailstones than the children of Israel killed with the sword.
And it happened, as they fled before Israel and were on the descent of Beth Horon, that the LORD cast down large hailstones from heaven on them as far as Azekah, and they died. There were more who died from the hailstones than the children of Israel killed with the sword.
Unless you think God threw angels upon Egypt and the Amorites. :chuckle:
And trees clap their hands.
We understand that some of the bible is metaphor and some is description of real events. Sometimes, it's both. Stick to one passage and we can discuss rationally that passage's meaning. Skip between passages demanding we apply the same rule to both and you only make a nonsense of the bible.
Most dispies take the following verse literal:
(Matt 24:29) “Immediately after the distress of those days
“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
It's a prophecy. And, yep, some pretty funky stuff is going to happen to the Moon, our atmosphere and from meteors.
But this is not reason to suggest we also think stars can sing. :nono:
It is?
I bet your response to that question does not include any references to back up your claim.
I'm OV, of course I believe God can change His mind. Do you not?
It means the same as "amen."
Why not?
:rotfl:
:mock:tetelestai
And yet you post none, still.:think:
genuineoriginal
New member
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. |
1 Corinthians 15:12-23 12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: 14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. 15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. 16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. |
The Second Coming is when He comes to Earth, followed by the 1000 year reign.
The rapture does not involve Him coming to Earth; instead we meet Him in the sky.
genuineoriginal
New member
Jesus speaks of two resurrections. The Rapture is the first one.
John 5:21-29 21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. 22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. |
Revelation 20:4-6 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. |
Neither of those are the rapture, as the rapture takes place before the 1000 year reign [before the tribulation even] and Jesus never spoke of it.
The rapture is not the Day of Judgment.:nono:
Now, if you'd like to post some verses that contradict my statements...
genuineoriginal
New member
The rapture takes place after the great tribulation and before the bowls of wrath are poured out. The rapture is the first resurrection.
Why would you believe in the rapture if Jesus never spoke of it?
The rapture is the day of redemption.
I already did, and your response shows that you don't believe them.