toldailytopic: If it was proved that homosexuality was genetic, would it then make it

Stripe

Teenage Adaptive Ninja Turtle
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I don't think we can quite draw that conclusion.
Sure, we can. That's why you have theories - so that you can make predictions and draw conclusions. That's the way we test our ideas. It's how science is done.

The evolutionists, however, prefer to assume the truth of their theory and then demand the skeptic to explain data under these irrational conditions.

Evolution does not perfect, it culls.
Exactly.

I've listed a few specific cases above that allow disadvantageous traits to survive and become widespread.
Yup. There might be a valid ad hoc explanation we can consider and test against reality. Let us know when you have one. :thumb:

That said, my personal (and based on limited evidence and a casual knowledge base) inclination is that homosexuality is too widespread to be directly cause by some genetic trait.
I know. You said that already. It was in agreement with me and against CM's irrational ideas.

And it could well be that there is some genetic contribution to homosexuality, especially if the trait had other, more advantageous implications as well.
You aren't very long for one idea, are you. :chuckle:

I think we need pretty strong evidence to rule out an entire category of explanations. I don't think we're quite there yet.
You've gotten it exactly backwards. You need some pretty convincing evidence to rule in that which is ad hoc to evolutionary theory.
 

rexlunae

New member
Sure, we can. That's why you have theories - so that you can make predictions and draw conclusions. That's the way we test our ideas. It's how science is done.

At best, it's a contingent conclusion. Which isn't how you stated it at all.

The evolutionists, however, prefer to assume the truth of their theory and then demand the skeptic to explain data under these irrational conditions.

I know, Stripe. You don't like evolution or the people who believe that is has happened. Got it.

Yup. There might be a valid ad hoc explanation we can consider and test against reality. Let us know when you have one. :thumb:

There are any number of explanations, and the notion that it can't be genetic is as ad-hoc as anything else. Nothing but evidence can really settle the dispute, personal inclinations aside.

You aren't very long for one idea, are you. :chuckle:

I can hold multiple competing ideas in my mind at the same time, and credit each with having some likelihood while understanding that they may be mutually exclusive. I don't know how else you would go about understanding this. I suppose you could pick your pony at the outset and ride it until it dies, but I'm not a religious man.

You've gotten it exactly backwards. You need some pretty convincing evidence to rule in that which is ad hoc to evolutionary theory.

I think you're just sore because you can't get scientists to rule in creationism.
 

CabinetMaker

Member of the 10 year club on TOL!!
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No trait is unexpressed. In order to become established, it must be selected for else it will disappear.
Recessive traits that occur as Xx or xX are not expressed. As such, they are not expressed and natural selection does not operate on them. Basic genetics.

Stripe said:
Not interested in assuming the truth of evolutionary theory in order to support evolution.
Understanding that genetics plays a part in determining whether or not you will get diabetes or cancer or any number of other conditions does not mean you have to agree with evolution. Genetic disorders a separate branch and deals with how genes and genetic traits are passed on.

Stripe said:
Fag. :flamer:
My apologizes. I had meant to type heterosexual but I miss-typed it and did not proof read. I apologize for implying you were homosexual. None the less, the question remains valid. What date to you decide that you are a heterosexual?

Stripe said:
Attempting to avoid the question does not make it go away. Why do you deny genetics?

Stripe said:
Expressed. Every time a trait is expressed that provides a disadvantage, it will be selected against - according to evolution.
True. What happens to recessive genes that express no phenotype when paired with a dominate gene? What happens to those recessive genes? Hint - natural selection cannot act on them so they are passed on to the next generation.

Stripe said:
Thus there is no mechanism whereby homosexuality could become entrenched in a population. The random mutations you appeal to in order to create it will just as quickly destroy it unless it is being actively selected for.
The list of genetic disorders puts the lie to your assertion here. Recessive trait to get established in populations and are propagated.

Stripe said:
Learn the theory you hold to so dearly. :thumb:
I already know it. That is why I understand that there is a *possibility* that a genetic component plays a part in determining sexual orientation. Genetics does allow for it.

Stripe said:
Or else evolution does not work and there is an alternative explanation for illnesses.
Evolution can only operate on expressed traits. When there is no expression of a particular trait, evolutionary process cannot act on that trait. Thus, when recessive trait is masked by a dominate expression of that trait, the recessive trait is passed on. That is why parents with brown eyes can have a child with blue eyes. Both parents carried the recessive gene for blue eyes and one child inherited a recessive form of the gene from each parent.

Stripe said:
Pays not to assume the truth of that which you're hoping to provide evidence for. It's called begging the question and is a logical fallacy popular among evolutionists.
There is no question being begged. It is a simple case of genetics. Detrimental can and do enter a population. Expression of the negative trait are selected against by natural selection. But where no trait is expressed, recessive genes for the negative trait are passed to subsequent generations. This has been understood since a particular monk started working with peas in his garden.
 

Stripe

Teenage Adaptive Ninja Turtle
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At best, it's a contingent conclusion. Which isn't how you stated it at all.
Sure, it is.

There are any number of explanations, and the notion that it can't be genetic is as ad-hoc as anything else. Nothing but evidence can really settle the dispute, personal inclinations aside.
The notion that genetics is not a factor is only if evolution is assumed as true. I think there is probably very likely genetic conditions that make homosexuality more likely. But evolution, if true, should have weeded those out.

Recessive traits that occur as Xx or xX are not expressed. As such, they are not expressed and natural selection does not operate on them. Basic genetics.
They do get expressed. Then selection works against them. In order to establish the trait, you require selection to work for it.

Understanding that genetics plays a part in determining whether or not you will get diabetes or cancer or any number of other conditions does not mean you have to agree with evolution. Genetic disorders a separate branch and deals with how genes and genetic traits are passed on.
So you're just running down rabbit trails for no reason?

My apologizes. I had meant to type heterosexual but I miss-typed it and did not proof read. I apologize for implying you were homosexual. None the less, the question remains valid. What date to you decide that you are a heterosexual?
You're a fag. :flamer:

Attempting to avoid the question does not make it go away. Why do you deny genetics?
:blabla:

Why do you deny evolution?

True. What happens to recessive genes that express no phenotype when paired with a dominate gene? What happens to those recessive genes? Hint - natural selection cannot act on them so they are passed on to the next generation.
And whenever they poke their heads above water, they are cut off. In order to establish a trait with evolution, you must have it selected for. That's what the "natural selection" part of "random mutations and natural selection" is all about.

The list of genetic disorders puts the lie to your assertion here. Recessive trait to get established in populations and are propagated.
Begging the question.

I already know it. That is why I understand that there is a *possibility* that a genetic component plays a part in determining sexual orientation. Genetics does allow for it.
Not under evolution.

Evolution can only operate on expressed traits. When there is no expression of a particular trait, evolutionary process cannot act on that trait. Thus, when recessive trait is masked by a dominate expression of that trait, the recessive trait is passed on. That is why parents with brown eyes can have a child with blue eyes. Both parents carried the recessive gene for blue eyes and one child inherited a recessive form of the gene from each parent.
People with blue eyes aren't obviously disadvantaged when it comes to propagating their line.

There is no question being begged.
Sure, there is. You're asking me to look up recessive traits that are bad for people as if examples of them are evidence for evolution. All you've done is taken the evolutionary explanation for the existence of these things and pretend its the only game in town.

In order to provide evidence, you have to do it without the evolutionary baggage attached.

It is a simple case of genetics. Detrimental can and do enter a population.
That's nice.

What evidence do you have that it must be evolution that did so?

Expression of the negative trait are selected against by natural selection. But where no trait is expressed, recessive genes for the negative trait are passed to subsequent generations. This has been understood since a particular monk started working with peas in his garden.
Before the trait has arisen, random mutations are required to produce it. Once produced, there is no reason why selection for the trait will outdo the mutations that will destroy the trait.

Evolutionary theory denies the idea that there is a genetic component to homosexuality.

Learn the theory you hold so dear.
 

CabinetMaker

Member of the 10 year club on TOL!!
Hall of Fame
Sure, it is.

The notion that genetics is not a factor is only if evolution is assumed as true. I think there is probably very likely genetic conditions that make homosexuality more likely. But evolution, if true, should have weeded those out.

They do get expressed. Then selection works against them. In order to establish the trait, you require selection to work for it.

So you're just running down rabbit trails for no reason?

You're a fag. :flamer:

:blabla:

Why do you deny evolution?

And whenever they poke their heads above water, they are cut off. In order to establish a trait with evolution, you must have it selected for. That's what the "natural selection" part of "random mutations and natural selection" is all about.

Begging the question.

Not under evolution.


People with blue eyes aren't obviously disadvantaged when it comes to propagating their line.

Sure, there is. You're asking me to look up recessive traits that are bad for people as if examples of them are evidence for evolution. All you've done is taken the evolutionary explanation for the existence of these things and pretend its the only game in town.

In order to provide evidence, you have to do it without the evolutionary baggage attached.

That's nice.

What evidence do you have that it must be evolution that did so?

Before the trait has arisen, random mutations are required to produce it. Once produced, there is no reason why selection for the trait will outdo the mutations that will destroy the trait.

Evolutionary theory denies the idea that there is a genetic component to homosexuality.

Learn the theory you hold so dear.
Stripe, your willful ignorance and bull-headed instance on misstating some facts while completely ignoring others undermines anything you have to say.

We were created in God's image and as such we have the capacity to understand His creation. We have observed how genetics work and have come to understand how that impacts people. Your denial of genetics and evolution is a denial of God's act of creation.
 

rexlunae

New member
Sure, it is.

The notion that genetics is not a factor is only if evolution is assumed as true. I think there is probably very likely genetic conditions that make homosexuality more likely. But evolution, if true, should have weeded those out.

It's contingent on more than that. There are lots of evolutionary possibilities, and you can't just wave any of them away without evidence.
 

alwight

New member
A quick Google of "human evolution and homosexuality" produces quite a number of possibilities, not that Stripe would have done the same. :nono:
I've seen in various places how statistics show that homosexuality is seen to be hereditary and running in families via the maternal side.
There is also evidence apparently that females in such families tend to be more fertile:

"Male homosexuality is difficult to explain under Darwinian evolutionary models, because carriers of genes predisposing towards male homosexuality would be likely to reproduce less than average, suggesting that alleles influencing homosexuality should progressively disappear from a population. This changed when previous work by Camperio Ciani and collaborators, published in 2004, showed that females in the maternal line of male homosexuals were more fertile than average"
.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/06/080617204459.htm
 

Stripe

Teenage Adaptive Ninja Turtle
LIFETIME MEMBER
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Stripe, your willful ignorance and bull-headed instance on misstating some facts while completely ignoring others undermines anything you have to say. We were created in God's image and as such we have the capacity to understand His creation. We have observed how genetics work and have come to understand how that impacts people. Your denial of genetics and evolution is a denial of God's act of creation.
:blabla:

All you are is platitude and poison.

It's contingent on more than that. There are lots of evolutionary possibilities, and you can't just wave any of them away without evidence.
Yes, I can. That which you present without evidence I am utterly justified in dismissing without evidence.
I've seen in various places how statistics show that homosexuality is seen to be hereditary and running in families via the maternal side.There is also evidence apparently that females in such families tend to be more fertile:
:BRAVO:
 
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Stripe

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It is, when not misapplied. Seems like you're arbitrarily accepting one solution and rejecting the others mostly without evidence.

What? :AMR:

What solutions have I accepted or rejected?

And please point out the evidence presented. :thumb:
 

CabinetMaker

Member of the 10 year club on TOL!!
Hall of Fame
What? :AMR:

What solutions have I accepted or rejected?

And please point out the evidence presented. :thumb:
Well, I did post information regarding genetic disorders that was completely ignored by you.
 

Granite

New member
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Sooner or later, Christians will have to make a choice:

Once it's scientifically demonstrated that sexual orientation is largely genetic, homophobes will be at a crossroads. They can either hate someone for who the person is, and continue in homophobic bigotry regardless of whether a gay person had any choice whatsoever in their orientation...or, homophobes will simply dismiss the science as bogus and claim it's yet another big scientific conspiracy/fraud right up there with evolution.

But believe me, that day is coming. And sooner or later Christians will either need to accept the obvious, or hate millions of people simply because of who they are. A lot of people have already accepted the obvious, but once science locks this subject down, the debate will officially be over.
 

Stripe

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LIFETIME MEMBER
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Sooner or later, Christians will have to make a choice:Once it's scientifically demonstrated that sexual orientation is largely genetic, homophobes will be at a crossroads. They can either hate someone for who the person is, and continue in homophobic bigotry regardless of whether a gay person had any choice whatsoever in their orientation...or, homophobes will simply dismiss the science as bogus and claim it's yet another big scientific conspiracy/fraud right up there with evolution.But believe me, that day is coming. And sooner or later Christians will either need to accept the obvious, or hate millions of people simply because of who they are. A lot of people have already accepted the obvious, but once science locks this subject down, the debate will officially be over.

:flamer:

:mock: :granite:
 

Delmar

Patron Saint of SMACK
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Sooner or later, Christians will have to make a choice:

Once it's scientifically demonstrated that sexual orientation is largely genetic, homophobes will be at a crossroads. They can either hate someone for who the person is, and continue in homophobic bigotry regardless of whether a gay person had any choice whatsoever in their orientation...or, homophobes will simply dismiss the science as bogus and claim it's yet another big scientific conspiracy/fraud right up there with evolution.

But believe me, that day is coming. And sooner or later Christians will either need to accept the obvious, or hate millions of people simply because of who they are. A lot of people have already accepted the obvious, but once science locks this subject down, the debate will officially be over.

OK you win! I do accept that, in this fallen world, people are genetically predisposed to sin. So what!
 

CabinetMaker

Member of the 10 year club on TOL!!
Hall of Fame
Sooner or later, Christians will have to make a choice:

Once it's scientifically demonstrated that sexual orientation is largely genetic, homophobes will be at a crossroads. They can either hate someone for who the person is, and continue in homophobic bigotry regardless of whether a gay person had any choice whatsoever in their orientation...or, homophobes will simply dismiss the science as bogus and claim it's yet another big scientific conspiracy/fraud right up there with evolution.

But believe me, that day is coming. And sooner or later Christians will either need to accept the obvious, or hate millions of people simply because of who they are. A lot of people have already accepted the obvious, but once science locks this subject down, the debate will officially be over.
That a behavior has a genetic component does not automatically make that behavior moral. As a heterosexual, it is still immoral to have sex with anybody but my wife. The same holds true for homosexuality. A person who claims faith in Jesus as their Lord and Savior has a choice to make. Will they serve Jesus or will they serve their lusts. This may require a person of either hetero or homo orientation to live a celibate life.
 
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