toldailytopic: How should the USA respond to the attacks on it's Embassies and Consul

[PureX]

My dear PureX, explanations appear to have no effect on you. You have been "Sanforized" and have an impermeable crust.
No matter what I have said, you deny it's validity, question my premise,and resort to any number of "yes buts" and "what ifs" to refute my statements.
So, I do not feel obligated to continue an exercise in futility.

All I said was that Christian bigotry and hatred is no different than Muslim bigotry and hatred. You pointed out that the expression of that bigotry and hate is more violent on the Islamic side. And I agreed, but pointed out that this is only because the maintenance of public order is weak in those middle eastern countries where we are seeing the violence.

So I don't see any big impediment happening in our conversation, so far.

Are you suggesting that the bigotry and hatred of Christians is somehow less bigoted and hateful because it is not being so violently expressed? It's just a question.

 

[Stripe]

Are you suggesting that the bigotry and hatred of Christians is somehow less bigoted and hateful because it is not being so violently expressed? It's just a question.

:darwinsm:

You're a retard.

It's just a fact. :idunno:

 

[PureX]

:darwinsm:

You're a retard.

It's just a fact. :idunno:

Is a thief any less of a thief if he steals $20 rather than $200? Is a bigot any less of a bigot if he slanders and belittles a hundred people rather than a thousand? Is coveting your neighbor's wife or possessions any less of a sin than actually taking them from him is?

So then how are Christian bigots and haters any less culpable for their bigotry and hatred than the Muslim bigots and haters they hate?

I'm sure a genius like yourself can answer these questions, easily.

 

[bybee]

Is a thief any less of a thief if he steals $20 rather than $200? Is a bigot any less of a bigot if he slanders and belittles a hundred people rather than a thousand? Is coveting your neighbor's wife or possessions any less of a sin than actually taking them from him is?

So then how are Christian bigots and haters any less culpable for their bigotry and hatred than the Muslim bigots and haters they hate?

I'm sure a genius like yourself can answer these questions, easily.

Honest to God! Sometimes I wonder...
Here is how you can tell the difference: I tell you I hate you and then I shoot you, then I tell Stripe I hate him but I don't shoot him.
There is a difference.

 

[rocketman]

So now you're suggesting that we should have left tyrants like Saddam in power? Oops! You forgot about him. You were so busy trying to blame everything on the democratic presidents that you forgot that we spent billions of dollars and hundreds of thousands of lives ridding the Muslim world of that particular dictator. But I'm sure you'll think up some excuse for our eliminating him while still blaming Obama and Clinton for all Muslim violence, everywhere.

No, I have not forgot him and yes I think leaving Saddam in power would have been the proper decision, which I voiced on this board many times, why should we even care a wit about any of these cultures unless they want peaceful relations with us is beyond me. If these people want freedom, democracy, socialism, sharia, whatever, let them have it, let them kill each other and fight amongst themselves to get it. Don't support them, don't give them funds, food or aid, give them exactly what they want from us...nothing. If they get aggressive with us or our allies squash them like roaches and confine them to their country. Your rant has pointed out that Bush made the same mistake that Obama and Clinton did which is quite correct but, the scale and ongoing support/appeasement for those that intend our country and people harm is what is truly the most despicable thing this administration is engaged in.

 

[PureX]

Honest to God! Sometimes I wonder...
Here is how you can tell the difference: I tell you I hate you and then I shoot you, then I tell Stripe I hate him but I don't shoot him.
There is a difference.

I understand the difference, but that difference isn't Christian. Christ taught that the sin is in the heart and mind of the sinner, not just in the act. The acts against others are crimes, but the desire to act against others is a sin. Coveting your neighbors wife is still a sin even if you don't act on it. Coveting your neighbor's possessions is still a sin even if you don't take them from him, and taking them would be a sin as well.

Is the sin of stealing any less of a sin than the sin of coveting? I don't think Jesus would say that it was. Because I think Jesus was trying to show us that it's WHAT'S IN OUR HEARTS that condemns us, not just what we have done to others. This is the big difference between Christianity and Islam, and even Judaism. Christianity is about the state of our hearts, not the crimes of our hands. The crimes of our hands can be forgiven, ARE forgiven, but the sins of our hearts have to be expunged and replaced by the Spirit of Christ.

So I find it odd that Christians might be trying to excuse the hate in their hearts by claiming that they have expressed no hate with their hands. I don't think Jesus would buy that excuse at all.

Do you?

 

[PureX]

No, I have not forgot him and yes I think leaving Saddam in power would have been the proper decision, which I voiced on this board many times, why should we even care a wit about any of these cultures unless they want peaceful relations with us is beyond me. If these people want freedom, democracy, socialism, sharia, whatever, let them have it, let them kill each other and fight amongst themselves to get it. Don't support them, don't give them funds, food or aid, give them exactly what they want from us...nothing. If they get aggressive with us or our allies squash them like roaches and confine them to their country. Your rant has pointed out that Bush made the same mistake that Obama and Clinton did which is quite correct but, the scale and ongoing support/appeasement for those that intend our country and people harm is what is truly the most despicable thing this administration is engaged in.

rocketman, if this has been your position all along, than I truly apologize for misrepresenting you! And I humbly accept your correction.

I agree with much of what you posted, here, as well.

 

[bybee]

I understand the difference, but that difference isn't Christian. Christ taught that the sin is in the heart and mind of the sinner, not just in the act. The acts against others are crimes, but the desire to act against others is a sin. Coveting your neighbors wife is still a sin even if you don't act on it. Coveting your neighbor's possessions is still a sin even if you don't take them from him, and taking them would be a sin as well.

Is the sin of stealing any less of a sin than the sin of coveting? I don't think Jesus would say that it was. Because I think Jesus was trying to show us that it's WHAT'S IN OUR HEARTS that condemns us, not just what we have done to others. This is the big difference between Christianity and Islam, and even Judaism. Christianity is about the state of our hearts, not the crimes of our hands. The crimes of our hands can be forgiven, ARE forgiven, but the sins of our hearts have to be expunged and replaced by the Spirit of Christ.

So I find it odd that Christians might be trying to excuse the hate in their hearts by claiming that they have expressed no hate with their hands. I don't think Jesus would buy that excuse at all.

Do you?

I do not desire nor do I intend to harm my neighbor.
I do not hate my enemy.
I do not desire to harm my enemy but I intend to defend myself with every means at my disposal.
I'm betting that Jesus knows that I love, treasure and value life, my own especially!
I have put myself on the line for family, friend and neighbor. I do not initiate discord.

 

[kmoney]

From my limited knowledge I can only suggest what seems sensible. That is, immediately suspend or freeze all monetary promises until we see that our embassies are being protected and those who perpetrate crimes against our personnel are brought to justice.
Immediately evacuate our people and shut down our embassies in those countries wherein uncontrolled violence in the streets rages unchecked.
Immediately round up all suspect foreign nationals from these countries who are here on visas and deport them.
Shut down embassies in the United States whose countries are allowing lawlessness to take the lives of our countrymen and women.
We are not wanted in those countries.
Then, if danger persists, the use of deadly force may become necessary. Appeasement does not work!
Their hatred of us is palpable and deadly. So be it.

No easy answers.

I would say that we should cut off aid and close the embassies, but I feel like we should maintain some level of humanitarian oriented aid and having an embassy could help serve that.

I do think we should stop intervening in political and military ventures because it tends to lead to more trouble.

 

[PureX]

No easy answers.

I would say that we should cut off aid and close the embassies, but I feel like we should maintain some level of humanitarian oriented aid and having an embassy could help serve that.

I do think we should stop intervening in political and military ventures because it tends to lead to more trouble.

One of our biggest problems is that we have been "intervening" in these countries for many decades, and often not in a positive way. We have installed and propped up murderous despots numerous times in various Islamic countries just because we wanted their cheap oil. Generations of Muslims have grown up under the tyranny of these despots that we continued to support. And that creates a lot of resentment in people.

The insult to Islam by this silly video is NOT the real reason these people are so angry. The generations of living under tyrants and despots supported by the United States, is. And when those countries are beset with internal power struggles, as many of them are right now, it's very easy for the participants in those internal power struggles to stir up resentment against the U.S. as a means of uniting people behind them. And that's what we are seeing going on. There is no new or sudden anti-American sentiment spontaneously erupting because of this stupid video. What there is are a lot of factions vying for power and influence who are using long-standing anti-American sentiment to try and gain public support.

It's really about internal politics, more than it's about us.

 

[rocketman]

rocketman, if this has been your position all along, than I truly apologize for misrepresenting you! And I humbly accept your correction.

I agree with much of what you posted, here, as well.

Thank you, and yes this is the position I hold. I believe our countries involvement in the middle east should be limited to a relationships with nations that are friendly with us and a position of no tolerance with those that are not, and certainly no support, aid, food, money, ???? unless they have shown us goodwill.

 

[PureX]

I do not desire nor do I intend to harm my neighbor.
I do not hate my enemy.
I do not desire to harm my enemy but I intend to defend myself with every means at my disposal.
I'm betting that Jesus knows that I love, treasure and value life, my own especially!
I have put myself on the line for family, friend and neighbor. I do not initiate discord.

I would have expected no less, and was certainly not accusing you of any negative intent. I hope you didn't think I was.

 

[kmoney]

One of our biggest problems is that we have been "intervening" in these countries for many decades, and often not in a positive way. We have installed and propped up murderous despots numerous times in various Islamic countries just because we wanted their cheap oil. Generations of Muslims have grown up under the tyranny of these despots that we continued to support. And that creates a lot of resentment in people.

The insult to Islam by this silly video is NOT the real reason these people are so angry. The generations of living under tyrants and despots supported by the United States, is. And when those countries are beset with internal power struggles, as many of them are right now, it's very easy for the participants in those internal power struggles to stir up resentment against the U.S. as a means of uniting people behind them. And that's what we are seeing going on. There is no new or sudden anti-American sentiment spontaneously erupting because of this stupid video. What there is are a lot of factions vying for power and influence who are using long-standing anti-American sentiment to try and gain public support.

It's really about internal politics, more than it's about us.

I don't really disagree. I wasn't trying to say that this is all about this stupid movie.

 

[Lighthouse]

Generally speaking if you sort issues by talking rather than shooting the world is a better place.

Shooting usually ends up with someone shooting back at you.

And that's a lesson these punks need to learn.

MaryContrary,

Interesting, isn't it, that your first thought was to "punish" me for expressing a thought about Christians that you didn't like.

So how, exactly, are you different from those Muslims looking to "punish" Americans for insulting their religion?

Oh, shut up you whiny, sniveling, snot-nosed little prat.

Why don't you go buy yourself a box of Kleenex and a pint of Ben & Jerry's, wrap yourself in a blanket and watch sad movies if you want to be a crybaby.

Or you could grow up, put away childish things and learn to take it like an adult.

I swear! You're older than I am, heck, you're older than my parents, and you act like a three year old whose parents don't know how to properly discipline.

Seriously, just shut up. Shut your sobbing mouth and go away.

Is coveting your neighbor's wife or possessions any less of a sin than actually taking them from him is?

Yes.

So then how are Christian bigots and haters any less culpable for their bigotry and hatred than the Muslim bigots and haters they hate?

This isn't simply about bigotry and hatred, pinhead. This is about the actions taken in the name of that bigotry and hatred.

Not to mention that there are actually things in this world which people should hate and against which they should be bigoted. Someone simply not sharing your beliefs is not one of them; people who destroy other people's property and kill people for unjustifiable reasons are.

 

[Stripe]

I'm sure a genius like yourself can answer these questions, easily.

That's right.

 

[bybee]

And that's a lesson these punks need to learn.


Oh, shut up you whiny, sniveling, snot-nosed little prat.

Why don't you go buy yourself a box of Kleenex and a pint of Ben & Jerry's, wrap yourself in a blanket and watch sad movies if you want to be a crybaby.

Or you could grow up, put away childish things and learn to take it like an adult.

I swear! You're older than I am, heck, you're older than my parents, and you act like a three year old whose parents don't know how to properly discipline.

Seriously, just shut up. Shut your sobbing mouth and go away.


Yes.

This isn't simply about bigotry and hatred, pinhead. This is about the actions taken in the name of that bigotry and hatred.

Not to mention that there are actually things in this world which people should hate and against which they should be bigoted. Someone simply not sharing your beliefs is not one of them; people who destroy other people's property and kill people for unjustifiable reasons are.

:thumb:

 

[PureX]

Oh, shut up you whiny, sniveling, snot-nosed little prat.

Why don't you go buy yourself a box of Kleenex and a pint of Ben & Jerry's, wrap yourself in a blanket and watch sad movies if you want to be a crybaby.

Or you could grow up, put away childish things and learn to take it like an adult.

I swear! You're older than I am, heck, you're older than my parents, and you act like a three year old whose parents don't know how to properly discipline.

Seriously, just shut up. Shut your sobbing mouth and go away.


Yes.

This isn't simply about bigotry and hatred, pinhead. This is about the actions taken in the name of that bigotry and hatred.

Not to mention that there are actually things in this world which people should hate and against which they should be bigoted. Someone simply not sharing your beliefs is not one of them; people who destroy other people's property and kill people for unjustifiable reasons are.

That's the Christian spirit! Ride that ignorance, rage, and lust for violent retribution right into the promised land! WHEEEE_HAWWW!

 

[bybee]

That's the Christian spirit! Ride that ignorance, rage, and lust for violent retribution right into the promised land! WHEEEE_HAWWW!

And you might try getting out of that Ivory Tower of platitudes and abstractions wherein no matter what anyone does, someone else is just as bad or worse!

 

[PureX]

And you might try getting out of that Ivory Tower of platitudes and abstractions wherein no matter what anyone does, someone else is just as bad or worse!

To suggest that Christians might have flaws very similar to Muslims doesn't exactly require an 'ivory tower'. Yet my goodness! The angry responses! How dare I suggest such a thing! You would think I posted some sort of outrageous anti-Christian movie trailer on Facebook, or something!

 

[Stripe]

To suggest that Christians might have flaws very similar to Muslims doesn't exactly require an 'ivory tower'.

It is not Christians forming angry mobs, storming embassies and murdering people over a stupid video. That would be the muslims.

Reality shows your nutcase rantings up for what they are.