Krsto
Well-known member
You will get the same response from those of us who love God with all our hearts, souls, and minds.
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toldailytopic: How does God handle babies when they die?
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You will get the same response from those of us who love God with all our hearts, souls, and minds.
Ask Mr. Religion
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A response coming 9 minutes to a post containing lengthy expositions on the matter, presenting alternative views, is not really worth a serious rejoinder. :AMR:
AMR
It's a simple "yes" or "no" question.
Skavau
New member
It is entirely justified to hate the kind of God concept you endorse.
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
It was a straightforward question that didn't require links to lengthy exposition but rather a direct answer in the affirmative or negative. The fact you're so reticent to simply and directly say that all non elect babies are condemned to suffer for eternity is rather telling. Is that or is that not what you believe? No jargon necessary, just a yes or no.
lain:
Ask Mr. Religion
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I have answered it in the past and will no doubt have to do so time and again given the short memories herein. All non-elect, even if they are infants, have but one eternal destiny--Hell.
There are none worthy, no not one, unless you think our Lord, and the Apostles speaking under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, were very confused on the matter of the depravity of unregenerate mankind.
Original sin alone is enough to justify God's actions. We are at enmity with God from birth unless God and God alone intervenes. That He saves anyone should be the greater question.
AMR
The Platonists disagree with you. Consider reading the Symposium (Plato), On the Nature of the Good (St. Augustine), the Elements of Theology (Proclus), etc. Every man innately desires The Good.
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
Well thank you for finally answering the question. How can an aborted foetus/baby/infant be at enmity with God when it has no awareness of either right or wrong or the concept of sin? That a loving God would create life under such horrific parameters should be an even greater question....
lain:
Krsto
Well-known member
I think this is where I typically see you exit stage left, after you have stated what you believe but are then asked to defend what you believe with proper exegesis. In my year and a half here on TOL I don't think I've ever seen you actually do any exegesis. You just make a claim, perhaps refer to some lengthy article about it just like cruciform and serpentdove tend to do with their pet doctrines, then when asked to defend yourself come up with some lame pompous excuse something to the effect the other is not worthy of your efforts.
I go no farther than the WCF summary on the matter:
Chapter X:
III. Elect infants, dying in infancy, are regenerated, and saved by Christ, through the Spirit, (m) who worketh when, and where, and how he pleaseth:
m. Lk.18:15,16 and Acts 2:38,39 and Jn.3:3,5 and 1 Jn.5:12 and Rom.8:9 (compared).
n. Jn.3:8.
o. 1 Jn.5:12; Acts 4:12.
AMR
As a Christian I also find this contemptuous and bordering on blasphemy. In this case the Atheist poster is right. If anything, God will offer the innocent child the choice if he wants to spend eternity with Him or not. A child that dies in infancy or before birth has not had the opportunity to make that choice. When Jesus speaks about "suffer the little children to come unto me" it seems to suggest that. That is the strongest support I can find for innocent children being offered a choice after death. Otherwise innocents would go to Heaven.
God does not arbitrarily elect innocent children to die the second death. The idea is callous and blasphemous. We do not serve a God like that.
elohiym
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The part of his argument about accepting Jesus.
Enoch, Elijah, and Abraham walked with God before Jesus was conceived.
some other dude
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some other dude asks:
Do you also consider as allegory other parts of scripture that describe a vengeful, violent, cruel God?
Arthur responds:
Depends on whats under question
How do you decide what parts of scripture to ignore?
some other dude asked:
Cruelty abounds in scripture. Consider Job's wife and children.
Athur responds:
And? Were they cast away by God? Nope. Would it be resolved? Yep.
My bad. Job's sons (and presumably daughters) and Job's servants. Slain with the edge of the sword, or burned up with fire from heaven, or crushed to death in a collapsed house.
Seems pretty cruel to me.
some other dude asked:
Arthur, do you think we could discuss this without personalizing it?
Arthur answered:
Why?
some other dude responded:
Because you whine like a baby when I throw it back at you.
Arthur whines:
You cowardly little troll. What the hell do you know about losing a child or seeing someone you love go through the agony of losing a baby?
More than you know Arthur, but thanks for demonstrating my point. Golly you're a whiny little fellow when you get upset. :chuckle:
First of all, I made it clear that it was not my position, that I was playing devils advocate.
Secondly, I have been more than willing to address the ramifications of the position I am arguing.
Now, are you done having your little tantrum? Can we get back to the subject at hand?
Do you also consider as allegory other parts of scripture that describe a vengeful, violent, cruel God?
Arthur responds:
Depends on whats under question
How do you decide what parts of scripture to ignore?
some other dude asked:
Cruelty abounds in scripture. Consider Job's wife and children.
Athur responds:
And? Were they cast away by God? Nope. Would it be resolved? Yep.
My bad. Job's sons (and presumably daughters) and Job's servants. Slain with the edge of the sword, or burned up with fire from heaven, or crushed to death in a collapsed house.
Seems pretty cruel to me.
some other dude asked:
Arthur, do you think we could discuss this without personalizing it?
Arthur answered:
Why?
some other dude responded:
Because you whine like a baby when I throw it back at you.
Arthur whines:
You cowardly little troll. What the hell do you know about losing a child or seeing someone you love go through the agony of losing a baby?
More than you know Arthur, but thanks for demonstrating my point. Golly you're a whiny little fellow when you get upset. :chuckle:
First of all, I made it clear that it was not my position, that I was playing devils advocate.
Secondly, I have been more than willing to address the ramifications of the position I am arguing.
Now, are you done having your little tantrum? Can we get back to the subject at hand?
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some other dude
New member
Yes Arthur, I understand that you like to pretend salvation is universal. Unfortunately, that's not scripturally supportable.
It appears to me that you take delight in what can be likened to "Bull Baiting". The more barbs you stick into another's hide the more enraged the other becomes?
I can hear you purring with satisfaction even as I sit at my keyboard.
some other dude
New member
some other dude
New member
bybee, when I first came here I was naive about all the various flavors of Christian belief. While I had heard the concept of universalism discussed, I had never known an adherent, or even known that there were many adherents. I find universalism a disgusting concept, one that spits on the sacrifice of Jesus.
And as for enraging Arthur? I asked him to stop personalizing this.
I'd prefer to argue scripture than insults.
some other dude
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elohiym
Well-known member
Until he sinned, which requires a carnal mind, an imperfect state of mind (Ro 8:6). Children do not have carnal minds (Mt 18:3) until adults teach them to have carnal minds (Pr 22:6).
Psalm 51:5 is figurative language meaning born under the Law of Moses, in my opinion. See Leviticus 12, apply to Mary and Jesus, rinse, repeat.
Here's an interesting verse: Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
Figurative language again, but clearly even the wicked are born innocent. See also Psalm 82:5-7.
To be carnally minded is death (Ro 8:6; Ge 3:7).
I don't need to. Paul agrees with me on everything.
How do you think they "were made sinners?" :idunno: All that changed was their perception of themselves (Gen 3:7), God and their relationship. After that, they taught their children that fallen perception, which made their children sinners when they acted on that perception, i.e. "[V]isiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me" (cf. Deuteronomy 24:16).
elohiym
Well-known member
1 Samuel 15:3
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
I don't.
Even if this were literal it doesn't equate to them being cut off for ever. Do you think Job was never reunited with his family?
When people make quips or underplay the tragedy of losing a child then a strong reaction to the asininity of such isn't "whining" you flaming troll. If you actually did have experience of such then you'd bloody well understand that. Take your one act pony trick and come back when you're past third grade dude.
You don't even understand the position you're actually playing "devils advocate" for. :doh:
As to the latter then take note as above. You don't make asinine quips where it comes to other folks bereavements dude. Else you're a scumbag.
:e4e:
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