toldailytopic: How do you feel about building a mosque at ground zero?

[zoo22]

I hadn't seen anyone post this yet... Sorry for the long cut & paste, but I figured the full times Op-Ed would be okay here, because it's so applicable to the discussion.

From: NYTimes

Building on Faith
By FEISAL ABDUL RAUF
Published: September 7, 2010

AS my flight approached America last weekend, my mind circled back to the furor that has broken out over plans to build Cordoba House, a community center in Lower Manhattan. I have been away from home for two months, speaking abroad about cooperation among people from different religions. Every day, including the past two weeks spent representing my country on a State Department tour in the Middle East, I have been struck by how the controversy has riveted the attention of Americans, as well as nearly everyone I met in my travels.

We have all been awed by how inflamed and emotional the issue of the proposed community center has become. The level of attention reflects the degree to which people care about the very American values under debate: recognition of the rights of others, tolerance and freedom of worship.

Many people wondered why I did not speak out more, and sooner, about this project. I felt that it would not be right to comment from abroad. It would be better if I addressed these issues once I returned home to America, and after I could confer with leaders of other faiths who have been deliberating with us over this project. My life’s work has been focused on building bridges between religious groups and never has that been as important as it is now.

We are proceeding with the community center, Cordoba House. More important, we are doing so with the support of the downtown community, government at all levels and leaders from across the religious spectrum, who will be our partners. I am convinced that it is the right thing to do for many reasons.

Above all, the project will amplify the multifaith approach that the Cordoba Initiative has deployed in concrete ways for years. Our name, Cordoba, was inspired by the city in Spain where Muslims, Christians and Jews co-existed in the Middle Ages during a period of great cultural enrichment created by Muslims. Our initiative is intended to cultivate understanding among all religions and cultures.

Our broader mission — to strengthen relations between the Western and Muslim worlds and to help counter radical ideology — lies not in skirting the margins of issues that have polarized relations within the Muslim world and between non-Muslims and Muslims. It lies in confronting them as a joint multifaith, multinational effort.

From the political conflicts between Israelis and Palestinians to the building of a community center in Lower Manhattan, Muslims and members of all faiths must work together if we are ever going to succeed in fostering understanding and peace.

At Cordoba House, we envision shared space for community activities, like a swimming pool, classrooms and a play space for children. There will be separate prayer spaces for Muslims, Christians, Jews and men and women of other faiths. The center will also include a multifaith memorial dedicated to victims of the Sept. 11 attacks.

I am very sensitive to the feelings of the families of victims of 9/11, as are my fellow leaders of many faiths. We will accordingly seek the support of those families, and the support of our vibrant neighborhood, as we consider the ultimate plans for the community center. Our objective has always been to make this a center for unification and healing.

Cordoba House will be built on the two fundamental commandments common to Judaism, Christianity and Islam: to love the Lord our creator with all of our hearts, minds, souls and strength; and to love our neighbors as we love ourselves. We want to foster a culture of worship authentic to each religious tradition, and also a culture of forging personal bonds across religious traditions.

I do not underestimate the challenges that will be involved in bringing our work to completion. (Construction has not even begun yet.) I know there will be interest in our financing, and so we will clearly identify all of our financial backers.

Lost amid the commotion is the good that has come out of the recent discussion. I want to draw attention, specifically, to the open, law-based and tolerant actions that have taken place, and that are particularly striking for Muslims.

President Obama and Mayor Michael Bloomberg both spoke out in support of our project. As I traveled overseas, I saw firsthand how their words and actions made a tremendous impact on the Muslim street and on Muslim leaders. It was striking: a Christian president and a Jewish mayor of New York supporting the rights of Muslims. Their statements sent a powerful message about what America stands for, and will be remembered as a milestone in improving American-Muslim relations.

The wonderful outpouring of support for our right to build this community center from across the social, religious and political spectrum seriously undermines the ability of anti-American radicals to recruit young, impressionable Muslims by falsely claiming that America persecutes Muslims for their faith. These efforts by radicals at distortion endanger our national security and the personal security of Americans worldwide. This is why Americans must not back away from completion of this project. If we do, we cede the discourse and, essentially, our future to radicals on both sides. The paradigm of a clash between the West and the Muslim world will continue, as it has in recent decades at terrible cost. It is a paradigm we must shift.

From those who recognize our rights, from grassroots organizers to heads of state, I sense a global desire to build on this positive momentum and to be part of a global movement to heal relations and bring peace. This is an opportunity we must grasp.

I therefore call upon all Americans to rise to this challenge. Let us commemorate the anniversary of 9/11 by pausing to reflect and meditate and tone down the vitriol and rhetoric that serves only to strengthen the radicals and weaken our friends’ belief in our values.

The very word “islam” comes from a word cognate to shalom, which means peace in Hebrew. The Koran declares in its 36th chapter, regarded by the Prophet Muhammad as the heart of the Koran, in a verse deemed the heart of this chapter, “Peace is a word spoken from a merciful Lord.”

How better to commemorate 9/11 than to urge our fellow Muslims, fellow Christians and fellow Jews to follow the fundamental common impulse of our great faith traditions?

 

[WizardofOz]

I hadn't seen anyone post this yet... Sorry for the long cut & paste, but I figured the full times Op-Ed would be okay here, because it's so applicable to the discussion.

From: NYTimes

:BRAVO:

Thanks for sharing zoo. Mr. Rauf is laying out a very acceptable and even applaudable vision for this center. I have supported this center from day 1, but now more than ever. Sure beats an abandoned building or even high-rise condos for that matter.

Any criticisms of his turn on the soap box? Let's hear it.

 

[bybee]

Well

Well

:BRAVO:

Thanks for sharing zoo. Mr. Rauf is laying out a very acceptable and even applaudable vision for this center. I have supported this center from day 1, but now more than ever. Sure beats an abandoned building or even high-rise condos for that matter.

Any criticisms of his turn on the soap box? Let's hear it.

I flat out don't trust the man. At this point I realize that what I think doesn't matter. Time will tell.

 

[WizardofOz]

I flat out don't trust the man. At this point I realize that what I think doesn't matter. Time will tell.

Why don't you trust him? Any specific reasons?

 

[serpentdove]

[A Challenge to the MSM: In the Name of Decency, Back Off the Ground Zero Mosque By Gina Loudon] "The land surrounding Ground Zero is a war memorial. The proposal of an Islamic mosque there is synonymous with a Nazi war memorial in downtown London. How would the world react to that proposal? Wouldn’t Western Europe just about leap off the map if that were proposed? Where is the outrage from our European “friends?”

Perhaps they are confused with the whole rosy picture of “peace” being painted by the Mainstream Media? Perhaps they believe the lie that this mosque is going to exist to “bring religions together.” Is that why they chose Ground Zero, the most hallowed ground in the country at the moment?

I have a proposal for the MSM and their Islamic buddies. I suggest that they, in the interest of religious peace and bringing religions together, extend an olive branch by bowing out of this ridiculous and divisive proposal altogether! If they really were interested in peace and fellowship among the “faithful” they would do the right thing..." Full text: A Challenge to the MSM: In the Name of Decency, Back Off the Ground Zero Mosque By Gina Loudon http://drginaloudon.com/general/a-c...e-of-decency-back-off-the-ground-zero-mosque/

 

[bybee]

Primarily

Primarily

Why don't you trust him? Any specific reasons?

His unwillingness to make the major conciliatory gesture of relocating the Islamic Center to a less controversial site in the interests of dwelling in harmony with his neighbors. He doesn't have to do it. Which would make it an even more welcome gesture.
His unwillingness to divulge funding?
He has, in the past (according to the media) made inflammatory comments?
Again, time will tell.

 

[WizardofOz]

[A Challenge to the MSM: In the Name of Decency, Back Off the Ground Zero Mosque By Gina Loudon] "The land surrounding Ground Zero is a war memorial. The proposal of an Islamic mosque there is synonymous with a Nazi war memorial in downtown London. How would the world react to that proposal? Wouldn’t Western Europe just about leap off the map if that were proposed? Where is the outrage from our European “friends?”

Perhaps they are confused with the whole rosy picture of “peace” being painted by the Mainstream Media? Perhaps they believe the lie that this mosque is going to exist to “bring religions together.” Is that why they chose Ground Zero, the most hallowed ground in the country at the moment?

I have a proposal for the MSM and their Islamic buddies. I suggest that they, in the interest of religious peace and bringing religions together, extend an olive branch by bowing out of this ridiculous and divisive proposal altogether! If they really were interested in peace and fellowship among the “faithful” they would do the right thing..." Full text: A Challenge to the MSM: In the Name of Decency, Back Off the Ground Zero Mosque By Gina Loudon http://drginaloudon.com/general/a-c...e-of-decency-back-off-the-ground-zero-mosque/

Wow! Another serpentdove cut and paste with no original thoughts from the serpentdove.

Shock :yawn:

Can't you even articulate your own thoughts on the matter? You're just lazy, aren't you?

 

[WizardofOz]

His unwillingness to make the major conciliatory gesture of relocating the Islamic Center to a less controversial site in the interests of dwelling in harmony with his neighbors.

Feisal Rauf doesn't own the site. He's just the Imam. Why should they move? How far should he have to move? 2 blocks? 10 blocks? How far would they have to move to appease everyone?

Seems quite arbitrary to me. :idunno:

I can tell by his vision that it is important to send the right message by staying at the Burlington Coat Factory site (i.e. NOT ground zero).

His unwillingness to divulge funding?

Read the source zoo22 quoted from....."I know there will be interest in our financing, and so we will clearly identify all of our financial backers."

Fox News shareholder funded ‘Ground Zero mosque’ imam: report

The second largest shareholder in News Corp. -- the parent company of Fox News -- has donated hundreds of thousands of dollars to causes linked to the imam planning to build a Muslim community center and mosque near Ground Zero in Manhattan, says a report from Yahoo!News.

He has, in the past (according to the media) made inflammatory comments?

Like what?

'Ground Zero Mosque' Imam Helped FBI With Counterterrorism Efforts

For those who actually know or have worked with the imam, the descriptions are frighteningly -- indeed, depressingly -- unhinged from reality. The Feisal Abdul Rauf they know, spent the past decade fighting against the very same cultural divisiveness and religious-based paranoia that currently surrounds him. "Imam Feisal has participated at the Aspen Institute in Muslim-Christian-Jewish working groups looking at ways to promote greater religious tolerance," Walter Isaacson, head of The Aspen Institute told the Huffington Post. "He has consistently denounced radical Islam and terrorism, and promoted a moderate and tolerant Islam. Some of this work was done under the auspices of his own group, the Cordoba Initiative. I liked his book, and I participated in some of the meetings in 2004 or so. This is why I find it a shame that his good work is being undermined by this inflamed dispute. He is the type of leader we should be celebrating in America, not undermining."

and

Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf and his wife Daisy Khan, are actually the kind of Muslim leaders right-wing commentators fantasize about: modernists and moderates who openly condemn the death cult of al-Qaeda and its adherents — ironically, just the kind of "peaceful Muslims" whom Sarah Palin, in her now infamous tweet, asked to "refudiate" the mosque. Rauf is a Sufi, which is Islam's most mystical and accommodating denomination.

This man and this project should be welcomed with open arms. We must support the moderate Islamic voice. He's the perfect person to be the face behind this collective voice.

 

[Nick_A]

:BRAVO:

Thanks for sharing zoo. Mr. Rauf is laying out a very acceptable and even applaudable vision for this center. I have supported this center from day 1, but now more than ever. Sure beats an abandoned building or even high-rise condos for that matter.

Any criticisms of his turn on the soap box? Let's hear it.

Imam Rauf wrote

We have all been awed by how inflamed and emotional the issue of the proposed community center has become. The level of attention reflects the degree to which people care about the very American values under debate: recognition of the rights of others, tolerance and freedom of worship.

No one argues the right to build it and there are many mosques in which to worship. People object to the "in your face" insensitivity to the sufferings of others. It is people like you that only tolerate selective suffering which unfortunately doesn't include the sufferings of those directly experiencing the results of the attack.

My life’s work has been focused on building bridges between religious groups and never has that been as important as it is now.

It appears as though you want to build bridges by blowing them up and just creating unnecessary friction between people.

We are proceeding with the community center, Cordoba House. More important, we are doing so with the support of the downtown community, government at all levels and leaders from across the religious spectrum, who will be our partners. I am convinced that it is the right thing to do for many reasons.

Of course you are continuing with the "in your face" project since it furthers the goal of spreading Sharia in America.

Above all, the project will amplify the multifaith approach that the Cordoba Initiative has deployed in concrete ways for years. Our name, Cordoba, was inspired by the city in Spain where Muslims, Christians and Jews co-existed in the Middle Ages during a period of great cultural enrichment created by Muslims. Our initiative is intended to cultivate understanding among all religions and cultures.

I'm not really interested in the superiority of Sharia law. As you well know, Cordoba was created on the site where a church was destroyed. Why would I want this cultural enrichment at Ground Zero at the cost of human suffering especially when Sharia law is not cultural enrichment?

Our broader mission — to strengthen relations between the Western and Muslim worlds and to help counter radical ideology — lies not in skirting the margins of issues that have polarized relations within the Muslim world and between non-Muslims and Muslims. It lies in confronting them as a joint multifaith, multinational effort.

I am very sensitive to the feelings of the families of victims of 9/11, as are my fellow leaders of many faiths. We will accordingly seek the support of those families, and the support of our vibrant neighborhood, as we consider the ultimate plans for the community center. Our objective has always been to make this a center for unification and healing.

The first step in that direction is to recognize and honor human sufferings resulting from acts of terrorism by becoming tolerant and not inflicting yourself on them. Rather than asking their support, move the mosque as an act of respect and human decency.

Cordoba House will be built on the two fundamental commandments common to Judaism, Christianity and Islam: to love the Lord our creator with all of our hearts, minds, souls and strength; and to love our neighbors as we love ourselves. We want to foster a culture of worship authentic to each religious tradition, and also a culture of forging personal bonds across religious traditions.

These commandments will be politically manipulated and devalued to serve the political goal of spreading Sharia. If the commandments were tken seriously, the first step would be to move the mosque.

It was striking: a Christian president and a Jewish mayor of New York supporting the rights of Muslims.

Why be racial. There is nothing striking about two naive people.

From those who recognize our rights, from grassroots organizers to heads of state, I sense a global desire to build on this positive momentum and to be part of a global movement to heal relations and bring peace. This is an opportunity we must grasp.

You would say this and then say that if the mosque were not built, it could provoke riots. An expression of human consideration could spark riots and at the same time there is positive momentum? All this means is that positive momentum is defined by how far we bend over for Sharia law.

I therefore call upon all Americans to rise to this challenge. Let us commemorate the anniversary of 9/11 by pausing to reflect and meditate and tone down the vitriol and rhetoric that serves only to strengthen the radicals and weaken our friends’ belief in our values.

Why not commemorate the anniversary of 9/11 by publically expressing the intent to move the mosque as an expression of multicultural consideration and unity?

“Peace is a word spoken from a merciful Lord.”

That same word is used by politicians to serve their agendas.

How better to commemorate 9/11 than to urge our fellow Muslims, fellow Christians and fellow Jews to follow the fundamental common impulse of our great faith traditions?

Follow the Golden Rule. Respect the sufferings of others. Move the mosque.

 

[WizardofOz]

Feel better now, Nick_A?

 

[bybee]

Well

Well

Feisal Rauf doesn't own the site. He's just the Imam. Why should they move? How far should he have to move? 2 blocks? 10 blocks? How far would they have to move to appease everyone?

Seems quite arbitrary to me. :idunno:

I can tell by his vision that it is important to send the right message by staying at the Burlington Coat Factory site (i.e. NOT ground zero).



Read the source zoo22 quoted from....."I know there will be interest in our financing, and so we will clearly identify all of our financial backers."

Fox News shareholder funded ‘Ground Zero mosque’ imam: report

The second largest shareholder in News Corp. -- the parent company of Fox News -- has donated hundreds of thousands of dollars to causes linked to the imam planning to build a Muslim community center and mosque near Ground Zero in Manhattan, says a report from Yahoo!News.

Like what?

'Ground Zero Mosque' Imam Helped FBI With Counterterrorism Efforts

For those who actually know or have worked with the imam, the descriptions are frighteningly -- indeed, depressingly -- unhinged from reality. The Feisal Abdul Rauf they know, spent the past decade fighting against the very same cultural divisiveness and religious-based paranoia that currently surrounds him. "Imam Feisal has participated at the Aspen Institute in Muslim-Christian-Jewish working groups looking at ways to promote greater religious tolerance," Walter Isaacson, head of The Aspen Institute told the Huffington Post. "He has consistently denounced radical Islam and terrorism, and promoted a moderate and tolerant Islam. Some of this work was done under the auspices of his own group, the Cordoba Initiative. I liked his book, and I participated in some of the meetings in 2004 or so. This is why I find it a shame that his good work is being undermined by this inflamed dispute. He is the type of leader we should be celebrating in America, not undermining."

and

Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf and his wife Daisy Khan, are actually the kind of Muslim leaders right-wing commentators fantasize about: modernists and moderates who openly condemn the death cult of al-Qaeda and its adherents — ironically, just the kind of "peaceful Muslims" whom Sarah Palin, in her now infamous tweet, asked to "refudiate" the mosque. Rauf is a Sufi, which is Islam's most mystical and accommodating denomination.

This man and this project should be welcomed with open arms. We must support the moderate Islamic voice. He's the perfect person to be the face behind this collective voice.

If all that you quote is true, I still maintain that, in light of the opposition to this site, the Imam would better serve his cause to request a different site. It would be conciliatory, regardless of legalities or rights.
If the moderate Islamic voice were more of a presence, worldwide, then I would continue to support them as I now do.
I support peaceful people going about their business obeying the law of the land.
This Cultural Center shall be built, regardless of my "feelings" about it. Posting my thoughts here is the heighth of my protest.

 

[Nick_A]

So now you do not only speak for Muslims, you speak for all people? Some people may profit from "going deeper into their chosen tradition", some don't and profit from exploring the traditions of others.

Making such simplistic generalizations is quite naive.

That's what I am asking; what are these goals and aims? Is it simply to bring peace as you say above, or is there more to it than that?

I smell another conspiracy brewing.



See how you are speaking for everyone again? Some people are opposed to the mosque, some are not. Some people think it should be 2 blocks further away, some think it should be 10 or more.

Who's right? Which whim shall we follow or force others to follow? You can point to any poll you'd like, mob rule doesn't rule this nation.



Of course that's not what I asked, but thanks for sharing. Your rhetoric is really top notch.



Yeah, peace is overrated. :hammer:
Total waste of time seeking that out.



Must be a conspiracy. Or not.

When it was being purchased the plan was to build condos. Only after the fact was the decision made to build the cultural center.

Initially, Gamal had planned to build a condominium complex at the site, but was convinced by Rauf’s idea for a cultural centre with a prayer space, especially as the Muslim community in New York had been growing for some time.

source

So much for the conspiracy. :idunno:



If I mine some quotes attributed to Muslims who say the center will bridge the gap and bring peace, will you be compelled?



Um, what?



Does your posting on TOL make "it unpleasant enough for politicians"?

Go grab your soapbox. The battle may yet be won. :singer:

So now you do not only speak for Muslims, you speak for all people? Some people may profit from "going deeper into their chosen tradition", some don't and profit from exploring the traditions of others.

Making such simplistic generalizations is quite naive.
Yeah, peace is overrated.
Total waste of time seeking that out.

It is overrated. You've gotten yourself so caught up in this Interfaith nonsense that you've lost any appreciation as to why it is overrated. Your rose colored glassed deny the impressions that could lead to common sense.

See how you are speaking for everyone again? Some people are opposed to the mosque, some are not. Some people think it should be 2 blocks further away, some think it should be 10 or more.

Who's right? Which whim shall we follow or force others to follow? You can point to any poll you'd like, mob rule doesn't rule this nation.

One thing at a time. First is the stated intent to move the mosque as an expression of respect for others.

If I mine some quotes attributed to Muslims who say the center will bridge the gap and bring peace, will you be compelled?

Then you would be in the uncomfortable position of removing your rose colored glasses in order to understand.

Um, what?

What do you think motivates politics?

Does your posting on TOL make "it unpleasant enough for politicians"?

No. I am part of the Great Unwashed so not worthy of consideration as an individual.

Go grab your soapbox. The battle may yet be won.

Only if it is converted into a shield and used to ward off the attacks of those trying to hit me over the head with peace signs.

 

[WizardofOz]

If all that you quote is true, I still maintain that, in light of the opposition to this site, the Imam would better serve his cause to request a different site.

Where? Just somewhere else? Are you one of the 2 blockers or one of the 10 blockers?

How far away must they go in order to appease you? Again, the imam doesn't own the building.

If the moderate Islamic voice were more of a presence, worldwide, then I would continue to support them as I now do.

Yet, here we have one who can make an impact and be influential and you want to marginalize him by asking him to move further to the back of the bus.

For them to move now would undermine everything they want to, and can, accomplish.

I support peaceful people going about their business obeying the law of the land.

Which is exactly what they are doing.

 

[Nick_A]

Feel better now, Nick_A?

Actually not. It is not a good feeling to witness that there are so many cold, callous, people in the world that will so easily take advantage of the vulnerable to serve their aims.

I'm more of an idealist and sometimes forget the reality of the human nature and how it translates into politics.

Rahm Emanuel: "We can't let this crisis go to waste."

That is the bottom line. The one good thing about this mosque controversy for me is that it helps me awaken back to reality and recognition of the Rahm Emanuel mindset

 

[Nick_A]

Where? Just somewhere else? Are you one of the 2 blockers or one of the 10 blockers?

How far away must they go in order to appease you? Again, the imam doesn't own the building.



Yet, here we have one who can make an impact and be influential and you want to marginalize him by asking him to move further to the back of the bus.

For them to move now would undermine everything they want to, and can, accomplish.


Which is exactly what they are doing.

Yet, here we have one who can make an impact and be influential and you want to marginalize him by asking him to move further to the back of the bus.

How far we have sunk. We've sunk so low that even moving the mosque as a voluntary act of compassion and sensitivity to the needs of others is considered moving "further to the back of the bus."

 

[WizardofOz]

It is overrated. You've gotten yourself so caught up in this Interfaith nonsense that you've lost any appreciation as to why it is overrated. Your rose colored glassed deny the impressions that could lead to common sense.

Peace is overrated? I'll happily disagree with your malcontent.

Notice that you cannot articulate why it is overrated, just that it is. Then you blather on yet again about rose colored "glassed" somehow being connected to common sense.

You talk without really saying a thing.

One thing at a time. First is the stated intent to move the mosque as an expression of respect for others.

Where? How far must they go? I think 10 blocks away is too close, why not 20? Nope? Still too close? How about 30?

Then you would be in the uncomfortable position of removing your rose colored glasses in order to understand.

That doesn't even make sense when considering the context. You found quotes attributed to a Muslim that your feel helps strengthen your argument. If I find some counter quotes attributed to a Muslim that strengthens my argument, will you be compelled?

Try submitting a post without the phrases "rose colored glasses", "the great unwashed" or "new age critical thinking" and I might mail you a cookie.

You're rhetoric is so thick you cannot see your own favorite two letter initial.

No amount of feel good platitudes will mean anything to politics which now only seeks the lawful the results of power, force, and stupidity.

Um, what?

What do you think motivates politics?

You need to work on your communication skills. I said "um, what" because your statement was nonsensical.

No. I am part of the Great Unwashed so not worthy of consideration as an individual.

Would you just take a shower already? Geez.

Only if it is converted into a shield and used to ward off the attacks of those trying to hit me over the head with peace signs.

You cannot use your shield when you are always standing on it yapping.

 

[WizardofOz]

Actually not. It is not a good feeling to witness that there are so many cold, callous, people in the world that will so easily take advantage of the vulnerable to serve their aims.

That's exactly what you are doing. You want to take advantage of people's emotions to serve your aims.

I'm more of an idealist and sometimes forget the reality of the human nature and how it translates into politics.

Rahm Emanuel: "We can't let this crisis go to waste."

That is the bottom line. The one good thing about this mosque controversy for me is that it helps me awaken back to reality and recognition of the Rahm Emanuel mindset

I could care less about Emanuel. Why bring him up? Getting desperate to make a valid point not grounded in emotional appeal?

How far we have sunk. We've sunk so low that even moving the mosque as a voluntary act of compassion and sensitivity to the needs of others is considered moving "further to the back of the bus."

How far must they move to appease you and the whims of the mob?

I stand by my comment. It is more and more evident that Muslim is the new black as far as ignorance and discrimination is concerned.

 

[Nick_A]

Peace is overrated? I'll happily disagree with your malcontent.

Notice that you cannot articulate why it is overrated, just that it is. Then you blather on yet again about rose colored "glassed" somehow being connected to common sense.

You talk without really saying a thing.



Where? How far must they go? I think 10 blocks away is too close, why not 20? Nope? Still too close? How about 30?



That doesn't even make sense when considering the context. You found quotes attributed to a Muslim that your feel helps strengthen your argument. If I find some counter quotes attributed to a Muslim that strengthens my argument, will you be compelled?

Try submitting a post without the phrases "rose colored glasses", "the great unwashed" or "new age critical thinking" and I might mail you a cookie.

You're rhetoric is so thick you cannot see your own favorite two letter initial.



You need to work on your communication skills. I said "um, what" because your statement was nonsensical.



Would you just take a shower already? Geez.



You cannot use your shield when you are always standing on it yapping.

Peace is overrated? I'll happily disagree with your malcontent.

Notice that you cannot articulate why it is overrated, just that it is. Then you blather on yet again about rose colored "glassed" somehow being connected to common sense.

You need to work on your communication skills. I said "um, what" because your statement was nonsensical.

It appears nonsensical to you for the same reason you don't understand why peace is overrated. You are not open to appreciating the dynamics of social force so how can I explain it?

Where? How far must they go? I think 10 blocks away is too close, why not 20? Nope? Still too close? How about 30?

Again, the first step is admitting the human value of moving the mosque. Then location can become meaningful.

That doesn't even make sense when considering the context. You found quotes attributed to a Muslim that your feel helps strengthen your argument. If I find some counter quotes attributed to a Muslim that strengthens my argument, will you be compelled?

That is our difference. you are influenced by speeches and I am influenced by practical realities.

 

[Memento Mori]

It appears nonsensical to you for the same reason you don't understand why peace is overrated. You are not open to appreciating the dynamics of social force so how can I explain it?

Oh, Conflict theory. Isn't that a Marxist idea? Or am I mistaken?

Again, the first step is admitting the human value of moving the mosque. Then location can become meaningful.

Like if we moved it to Europe. Then it'd be their problem. Well I think it's distasteful to build churches near Indian reserves or really anywhere in America. Because well you know.

That is our difference. you are influenced by speeches and I am influenced by practical realities.

... A great difference indeed... lain:

 

[bybee]

Okay then

Okay then

Where? Just somewhere else? Are you one of the 2 blockers or one of the 10 blockers?

How far away must they go in order to appease you? Again, the imam doesn't own the building.



Yet, here we have one who can make an impact and be influential and you want to marginalize him by asking him to move further to the back of the bus.

For them to move now would undermine everything they want to, and can, accomplish.


Which is exactly what they are doing.

You win! You have proven me wrong at every turn. Your choice of words is quite inflammatory. I have not asked him to move to the back of the bus. I cannot marginalize anyone, nor do I wish to. I view this as asking a favor from a neighbor. His answer will have consequences, either way. I have nothing more to say.