toldailytopic: How do you feel about building a mosque at ground zero?

[WizardofOz]

They could just as easily be swayed by this argument........ Americans are so devious and hateful of Muslims that they let us build a mosque near ground zero, to make us think they are our friends. Meanwhile the great Satan continues to corrupt the world with its immorality and its support of the state of Israel.........

:noid: Mainstream Muslims do not necessarily think this way.

To totally abandon Israel, and become a less pornographic nation is what Muslims want to see from America

Nice blanket statements. Certainly American Muslims go to these places to worship, not gripe about Israel. Plenty of Muslims could care less about Palestine.

Regarding pornography, you don't want to see that? If they want the same things you do, why not support their efforts? Especially seeing as how Christians will also have an area in this cultural center. If Christians and Muslims could work together to combat such things, why wouldn't you support that?

If they could buy and own the land, Why not right on Ground zero?

Because they bought and own the abandoned Burlington Coat Factory building. That's just it. This site is not ground zero.

Because even almost all liberal supporters of the freedom of religion, and their perceived need to prove,that not all Americans hate nor consider all Muslims terrorists, would find that offensive, or at least inappropriate.

And, if they were planning on building at ground zero, your side would be wanting them to go a couple blocks away from there. To, maybe the Burlington Coat Factory building. If it were 10 blocks, you'd probably want it 12.

Others who find "it" offensive also consider one or two blocks, less offensive, but still offensive none the less. I think that since there is already a mosque four blocks away, I am assuming that would be the least distance, that "most," would find acceptable. if the Imam decided to compromise at all, he would find that his willingness to move at least two blocks, would probably satisfy, and get the job done.

If your neighbors vote and decide that you should build a house 2 blocks further down the road from where you want to build, should you do that to appease popular opinion? Mob rule should never be given too much merit. The law should. :thumb:

I am guessing he will try to win the propaganda war, and if he loses it, he wouldn't move two block, even if the taxpayers funded the entire project for him. That's my reading of this particular Imam. IMHO

That would force the Imam to admit that mainstream Islam should be identified with the 9-11 terrorists.

They shouldn't.

 

[Todah]

:noid: Mainstream Muslims do not necessarily think this way.

Nice blanket statements. Certainly American Muslims go to these places to worship, not gripe about Israel. Plenty of Muslims could care less about Palestine.

I was referring to the Muslims the Imam was referring to in his statement. The ones that anti-american radicals could sway to their agenda, unless a mosque is built there. That is his assertion. Your argument is with him, not me then.

 

[WizardofOz]

I was referring to the Muslims the Imam was referring to in his statement. The ones that anti-american radicals could sway to their agenda, unless a mosque is built there. That is his assertion. Your argument is with him, not me then.

:nono:

I agree with the Imam.

I disagree with your statements, such as the following....

They could just as easily be swayed by this argument........ Americans are so devious and hateful of Muslims that they let us build a mosque near ground zero, to make us think they are our friends. Meanwhile the great Satan continues to corrupt the world with its immorality and its support of the state of Israel.........

Which is paranoid speculation. You want to wrap this as a no-win situation. These are your words, not Feisal Rauf's.

Also....

To totally abandon Israel, and become a less pornographic nation is what Muslims want to see from America

When did Feisal Rauf say this?

 

[dodge]

It isn't a mosque for worship, it is a monument to radical islam's slaughter on 9-11. The mosque is merely the vehicle used to push it.

Agreed.

I would love to see the liberal response if a Christian group wanted to build a church at MECCA on the Muslim unholy sight.

Almost 3000 folks were murdered, and now the peaceful Muslims ( sic) want to build a shrine to the moon god allah where they were murdered.

This country has lost its way, and the only hope for any is God. The true God the one that created the universe , and then came as a man.

 

[Todah]

There seems to be no valid counterargument, by proponents of the mosque, to this argument.

Muslims have a right to build a Mosque, at the site proposed.
Not all Muslims are terrorists.
These Muslims are representing the peaceful, decent, and the extended hand of friendship, Muslims.
These Muslims have been informed that the vast majority of victims families and surviving wounded, are hurt and offended, by the idea of the Mosque, being that close to ground zero.
Around 70% of Americans are opposed to the location.
These Muslims have been offered generous help and support, to find another location, and refused.

Therefore the claim, of these Muslims, of being compassionate and trying to reach out to others, has been ineffective and counterproductive.

Conclusions: Either these Muslims are not as they claim to be, or they are just like the vast majority of us humans, in similar predicaments, simply stubborn-stupid.

There "are" very many peaceable and compassionate Muslims in America and they are the ones who are "not" building mosques near ground zero and do "not" want a Mosque built there.

I wholeheartedly agree with those who feel that our property rights and our religious freedoms are an issue here. They are simply not as big an issue as compared to being willing to forfeit them, for the greater issue of human compassion and decency. As I have stated, if the situation was reversed, and this were a proposed Christian Church near the site of a Christian terrorist atrocity, I would be similarly opposed.

If one wishes to stand up for freedom of Religion in America, there are scores of Christian Churches, prayer groups and individuals, being denied their rights 'today,' throughout this country, and none of them is near a site of Christian terrorist activity.

Also there are millions of individuals and businesses being denied permits, or having costs escalated, and designs severely curtailed, by the local building departments and commissions. These people are of all faiths and all colors.

There are plenty of more worthwhile and numerous fights to be fought, than a liberal politically correct Mosque, near ground zero, that has been put on relative fast track by the mayor and local officials.

As for the rest of your arguments, you are simply repeating what I consider invalid counterarguments. Your side, is still unable to refute as I stated above, and therefore, I refer to it again.

The issue of ,if my neighbors can vote me out has already been decided in America, Yes they can. Covenant communities and homeowner associations, have won that right in courts. Also for those not owning land in an area governed by them, you then have the government as your homeowner association. Sometimes they are much more restrictive {Boulder Colorado for example} sometimes they are less restrictive.

In NYC we have a case of them being less restrictive to this mosque, than they are to the Greek Orthodox Church. The NYC homeowners association, "so to speak," wants them to move, at least a couple blocks. But they have no authority in that area!

The government, and the mayor, and thirty percent of the people there, are sticking up for the right to build a mosque on privately owned land, whether or not, it is offensive to the other 70%.

A Homeowner Association will find something as trivial as a shade of paint one shade of blue, off norm, offensive. The same goes for many building departments, regarding form or function.

The matter of a reminder to most, ofdeath and destruction, is more offensive, than a paint shade.

It is unfortunate for the millions of peaceful Muslims, that a Mosque near ground zero reminds NYCites of 9/11, but since it does, most of them, do not want it built there either.

 

[Todah]

:nono:



Which is paranoid speculation. You want to wrap this as a no-win situation. These are your words, not Feisal Rauf's.

Also....

When did Feisal Rauf say this?

Again he was referring to the anti american radicals who could influence young impressionable Muslims. The anti american radicals of Islam, consider the USA the great Satan, for two main reasons, their support of Israel, and their moral debauchery. They have other reasons as well.

Why is my speculation paranoid, and the Imam's obvious speculation, which started this, not?

If the Mosque is built, anti American radicals will not be able to so easily sway young Muslims. In other words unless this mosque is built anti-american radicals "will" be able to sway young impressionable Muslims. Pure paranoid speculation, on his part. Do you agree?

 

[WizardofOz]

Again he was referring to the anti american radicals who could influence young impressionable Muslims.

He said this....

"The wonderful outpouring of support for our right to build this community center from across the social, religious and political spectrum seriously undermines the ability of anti-American radicals to recruit young, impressionable Muslims by falsely claiming that America persecutes Muslims for their faith," he wrote. "These efforts by radicals at distortion endanger our national security and the personal security of Americans worldwide."

And I agree.

The anti american radicals of Islam, consider the USA the great Satan, for two main reasons, their support of Israel, and their moral debauchery. They have other reasons as well.

These are your words and have nothing to do with Feisal Rauf.

Why is my speculation paranoid, and the Imam's obvious speculation, which started this, not?

This.....

They could just as easily be swayed by this argument........ Americans are so devious and hateful of Muslims that they let us build a mosque near ground zero, to make us think they are our friends. Meanwhile the great Satan continues to corrupt the world with its immorality and its support of the state of Israel.........

Is paranoid speculation.

I do not think they could just as easily be swayed by this type of :noid: speculation.

If the Mosque is built, anti American radicals will not be able to so easily sway young Muslims.

I agree.

In other words unless this mosque is built anti-american radicals "will" be able to sway young impressionable Muslims. Pure paranoid speculation, on his part. Do you agree?

I agree with his assertion. I do not agree that this is pure paranoid speculation. Radicals will find it easier to recruit if this mosque is prevented from opening.

 

[Todah]

I agree with his assertion. I do not agree that this is pure paranoid speculation. Radicals will find it easier to recruit if this mosque is prevented from opening.

And I am going to use your words and disagree with his "assertion," which you have agreed with.

It is pure paranoid speculation on the Imam's part to say that radicals will find it easier to recruit, if this mosque is prevented from opening. Sorry but that sounds very paranoid to me, and it is pure speculation, which you can redefine as assertion, for him, and speculation for me. Either term does not offend me.

This forum is for both stating truths, to bolster arguments, and making speculations or assertions. I will assert that my speculation is just as valid, or just as paranoid, as the Imam's. That is exactly why I made it. Of course I acknowledge that you see mine as paranoid, and his as reasonable. I see them both as paranoid, and manipulative, for sure, in kind.

 

[Nick_A]

A proposed Islamic community center near ground zero will include separate prayer spaces for Muslims, Christians, Jews and people of other faiths, the imam behind plans for the facility wrote in a newspaper editorial published online Tuesday. Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf wrote in The New York Times that the attention surrounding the plans for the $100 million community center just blocks from the site of the Sept. 11 attacks "reflects the degree to which people care about the very American values under debate: recognition of the rights of others, tolerance and freedom of worship." He said it was critical that Americans "not back away" from completing the project. "The wonderful outpouring of support for our right to build this community center from across the social, religious and political spectrum seriously undermines the ability of anti-American radicals to recruit young, impressionable Muslims by falsely claiming that America persecutes Muslims for their faith," he wrote. "These efforts by radicals at distortion endanger our national security and the personal security of Americans worldwide."

source

Do you agree that building the mosque will "undermine the ability of anti-American radicals to recruit young, impressionable Muslims by falsely claiming that America persecutes Muslims for their faith"?

Or should they do that two blocks further away?

As usual, it is the opposite. This rose colored wishful thinking that defines Interfaith is only looked upon as weakness by these impressionable Muslims.

Being asked to move is not persecuting Muslims. Rather moving the mosque as an example of human consideration would be considered the Interfaith thing to do if that naive concept had any meaning.

Since it doesn't, the reality is that these impressionable Muslims would consider it the right thing to do to protect what they consider holy ground. For us not to do so would be considered weakness in their eyes and not worthy of respect. The cultural center as a token of their victory would be justified.

 

[Nick_A]

And I am going to use your words and disagree with his "assertion," which you have agreed with.

It is pure paranoid speculation on the Imam's part to say that radicals will find it easier to recruit, if this mosque is prevented from opening. Sorry but that sounds very paranoid to me, and it is pure speculation, which you can redefine as assertion, for him, and speculation for me. Either term does not offend me.

This forum is for both stating truths, to bolster arguments, and making speculations or assertions. I will assert that my speculation is just as valid, or just as paranoid, as the Imam's. That is exactly why I made it. Of course I acknowledge that you see mine as paranoid, and his as reasonable. I see them both as paranoid, and manipulative, for sure, in kind.

We live in a time that values and expresses selective morality through the intimidation of political correctness. You and I are expressing politically incorrect concerns which will always be considered paranoid by those whose morality is governed by political correctness.

 

[WizardofOz]

To Todah

To Todah

I see a world of difference between this....
"The wonderful outpouring of support for our right to build this community center from across the social, religious and political spectrum seriously undermines the ability of anti-American radicals to recruit young, impressionable Muslims by falsely claiming that America persecutes Muslims for their faith. These efforts by radicals at distortion endanger our national security and the personal security of Americans worldwide." - Feisal Rauf

and this.....
"Americans are so devious and hateful of Muslims that they let us build a mosque near ground zero, to make us think they are our friends. Meanwhile the great Satan continues to corrupt the world with its immorality and its support of the state of Israel." - Todah speaking on behalf of radical Muslims looking to recruit impressionable Muslims.

One comes across as reasonable and articulate while the other comes across as sensational and paranoid.

 

[WizardofOz]

This rose colored wishful thinking that defines Interfaith is only looked upon as weakness by these impressionable Muslims.

Funny that the Muslims behind this center are creating an interfaith site. :think:

As usual, there is what you assert and then there is reality.

Being asked to move is not persecuting Muslims.

How far must they move to appease the mob?

Rather moving the mosque as an example of human consideration would be considered the Interfaith thing to do if that naive concept had any meaning.

Interfaith has nothing to do with moving the site. The only way interfaith comes into play is by the fact that there are rooms for Christians (et al) to pray.

the reality is that these impressionable Muslims would consider it the right thing to do to protect what they consider holy ground.

They consider what holy ground, the abandoned Burlington Coat Factory building? :kookoo:

For us not to do so would be considered weakness in their eyes and not worthy of respect.

"Not to do so".....not to do what? The point you are attempting to convey is getting lost in your rhetoric.

The cultural center as a token of their victory would be justified.

Again, nonsensical. Please clarify what point you are trying to make.

You lost me.

 

[fool]

They consider what holy ground, the abandoned Burlington Coat Factory building? :kookoo:

That really is the last word on this topic for me and has been since it first came up.
The post hoc outrage is almost comical, I don't remember any outrage over the old coat store when it was sold 4 yeas ago, so the whole "Hollowed ground" argument falls on it's face right out of the gate.

If it was Ground Zero it wouldn't have been for sale, period.
The fact that people try to call this "a Mosque on Ground Zero" is trying to make it something that it simply isn't, which tells me they don't have case against what is actually is.
Which is a Mosque at an old coat store two blocks away from ground zero.

I'd be impressed if any of the opponents would actually call it what it is and still try to make their point, Rush and Hannity should do segments and interviews about the "Burlington Coat Factory Mosque two blocks away from Ground Zero" and see if the story still has any legs. Why do people need to lie?

 

[Nick_A]

I see a world of difference between this....
"The wonderful outpouring of support for our right to build this community center from across the social, religious and political spectrum seriously undermines the ability of anti-American radicals to recruit young, impressionable Muslims by falsely claiming that America persecutes Muslims for their faith. These efforts by radicals at distortion endanger our national security and the personal security of Americans worldwide." - Feisal Rauf

and this.....
"Americans are so devious and hateful of Muslims that they let us build a mosque near ground zero, to make us think they are our friends. Meanwhile the great Satan continues to corrupt the world with its immorality and its support of the state of Israel." - Todah speaking on behalf of radical Muslims looking to recruit impressionable Muslims.

One comes across as reasonable and articulate while the other comes across as sensational and paranoid.

One is a reasonable appraisal ofthe situation and the other is political manipulation through typical Interfaith politically correct BS

 

[Nick_A]

Funny that the Muslims behind this center are creating an interfaith site. :think:

As usual, there is what you assert and then there is reality.


How far must they move to appease the mob?



Interfaith has nothing to do with moving the site. The only way interfaith comes into play is by the fact that there are rooms for Christians (et al) to pray.



They consider what holy ground, the abandoned Burlington Coat Factory building? :kookoo:



"Not to do so".....not to do what? The point you are attempting to convey is getting lost in your rhetoric.



Again, nonsensical. Please clarify what point you are trying to make.

You lost me.

Funny that the Muslims behind this center are creating an interfaith site.

As usual, there is what you assert and then there is reality.

http://articles.cnn.com/2010-08-20/us/california.islamic.center.controversy_1?_s=PM:US

The reality is this politically correct naive idea of Interfaith is used as an excuse for political manipulation.

The cultural center would have a place for all religions to worship. How lovely. Give it a rest.

How far must they move to appease the mob?

Funny how you describe people hurt by the results of 911 as a mob. It is politically correct so I guess they must be a mob.

Interfaith has nothing to do with moving the site. The only way interfaith comes into play is by the fact that there are rooms for Christians (et al) to pray.

Why would they. Why would a Jew come to pray in a Catholic church or a Catholic go to pray in a synagogue. Such feel good statements are only for the gullible.

They consider what holy ground, the abandoned Burlington Coat Factory building?

The abandoned Burlington Coat Factory building was abandoned because the landing gear of an attacking plane destroyed the roof. It is associated with the attack and the people killed by it. In this way it is associated with holy ground.

"Not to do so".....not to do what? The point you are attempting to convey is getting lost in your rhetoric.

For us not to protest this political manipulation is nothing but weakness and stupidity in the eyes of impressionable Muslims. They've got a point.

Again, nonsensical. Please clarify what point you are trying to make.

You lost me.

Placing this cultural center/Sharia mosque on a site made vacant by the 911 attack is a clear token of victory. The demand to do it in contrast to a more human inclination of being sensitive to the sufferings of 911 demonstrates their intent. No amount of feel good Interfaith platitudes can change the obvious.

 

[fool]

The abandoned Burlington Coat Factory building was abandoned because the landing gear of an attacking plane destroyed the roof. It is associated with the attack and the people killed by it. In this way it is associated with holy ground.

So where was the outrage 4 years ago when it was sold?
Nowhere.
Proving that nobody cared about this building until they heard "Mosque".
You're 4 years too late, actually 9 years too late to call this "Ground Zero".
You look silly trying.

 

[Nick_A]

So where was the outrage 4 years ago when it was sold?
Nowhere.
Proving that nobody cared about this building until they heard "Mosque".
You're 4 years too late, actually 9 years too late to call this "Ground Zero".
You look silly trying.

It is amazing how as soon as politics appear some people lose their sense of common decency and become incapable of just being sensitive to the needs of others.

We read the story of the Good Samaritan in the Bible and express all sorts of feel good sentiments. But as soon as politics enters, then reality makes real intentions embarrasingly clear.

 

[WizardofOz]

The reality is this politically correct naive idea of Interfaith is used as an excuse for political manipulation.

To what end? What's the goal of this naive idea?

Funny how you describe people hurt by the results of 911 as a mob. It is politically correct so I guess they must be a mob.

Typical pull at the heart strings. Nice emotional appeal there. Top notch rhetoric.

This has nothing to do with "people hurt by the result of 911". People who oppose this from going forward cite poll after poll about "what the American people want". That's mob rule. We are ruled by laws, not what the mob demands.

If 99% of the country supported these plans would you change your tune or is the entire song and dance just a red herring to begin with?

Why would they. Why would a Jew come to pray in a Catholic church or a Catholic go to pray in a synagogue. Such feel good statements are only for the gullible.

So "interfaith" as you parrot is just a myth? Way to marginalize your own material. I guess there is no agenda after all.

The abandoned Burlington Coat Factory building was abandoned because the landing gear of an attacking plane destroyed the roof. It is associated with the attack and the people killed by it. In this way it is associated with holy ground.

It's been abandoned for years. Why hasn't someone else bought it by now? You'd really prefer an abandoned building? I'll look into vacation packages highlighting this fantastic attraction. I mean, who wouldn't want to go?

For us not to protest this political manipulation is nothing but weakness and stupidity in the eyes of impressionable Muslims. They've got a point.

See how you're speaking for Muslims? You should stop that. What do you know other than what the media tells you?

Placing this cultural center/Sharia mosque on a site made vacant by the 911 attack is a clear token of victory. The demand to do it in contrast to a more human inclination of being sensitive to the sufferings of 911 demonstrates their intent. No amount of feel good Interfaith platitudes can change the obvious.

Nor can soap box speeches.

 

[Nick_A]

To what end? What's the goal of this naive idea?



Typical pull at the heart strings. Nice emotional appeal there. Top notch rhetoric.

This has nothing to do with "people hurt by the result of 911". People who oppose this from going forward cite poll after poll about "what the American people want". That's mob rule. We are ruled by laws, not what the mob demands.

If 99% of the country supported these plans would you change your tune or is the entire song and dance just a red herring to begin with?



So "interfaith" as you parrot is just a myth? Way to marginalize your own material. I guess there is no agenda after all.



It's been abandoned for years. Why hasn't someone else bought it by now? You'd really prefer an abandoned building? I'll look into vacation packages highlighting this fantastic attraction. I mean, who wouldn't want to go?



See how you're speaking for Muslims? You should stop that. What do you know other than what the media tells you?



Nor can soap box speeches.

To what end? What's the goal of this naive idea?

The goal of Interfaith is to bring peace through people expressing wonderful thoughts and platitudes. It doesn't happen. The human condition would never allow it. People capable of getting along don't need it and profit more from going deeper into their chosen tradition.

Political manipulation has its own goal in mind and just uses these platitudes to further its aims.

This has nothing to do with "people hurt by the result of 911". People who oppose this from going forward cite poll after poll about "what the American people want". That's mob rule. We are ruled by laws, not what the mob demands.

You are wrong. People are not opposed to the mosque but only the site on which it is to be built. I am part of this Great Unwashed mob so know where they are coming from.

If 99% of the country supported these plans would you change your tune or is the entire song and dance just a red herring to begin with?

If 99% of the country supported it, I would know it is time to pack it in. The country would have lost its sense of common decency which means the American soul is no more.

So "interfaith" as you parrot is just a myth? Way to marginalize your own material. I guess there is no agenda after all.

It is a well meaning idea but just fantasy. People like to feel good by exchanging nice sentiments but it doesn't stop them from changing according to circumstances and hitting each other over the head with peace signs.

It's been abandoned for years. Why hasn't someone else bought it by now? You'd really prefer an abandoned building? I'll look into vacation packages highlighting this fantastic attraction. I mean, who wouldn't want to go?

As I previously wrote, it wasn't sold until then and for a fraction of what had been offered:

Why for example would the property sell for 4.8 million when 18 million was offered for it?

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/m...b5MdehzkDDWY3H

New York developer Kevin Glodek was livid when he found out the building sold for a fraction of what he offered in 2007 -- $18 million cash -- and wondered whether money changed hands under the table, according to sources close to the deal.

See how you're speaking for Muslims? You should stop that. What do you know other than what the media tells you?

I don't walk around with politically correct rose colored glasses. The aim of advocates of Sharia are obvious. Here is a Muslim that understands:

http://www.newsmax.com/InsideCover/groundzeromosquetawfik/2010/08/18/id/367823

Islamic expert Tawfik Hamid tells Newsmax that many Muslims will view the construction of a mosque near ground zero as symbolizing a “triumph over America.”

He also declares that if the mosque is built it could prove to be the “spark” that begins a “war between civilizations.”

Hamid is well acquainted with the threats from radical Islam — he was once a member of a terrorist Islamic organization along with Dr. Ayman Al-Zawahiri, who later became the second in command of al-Qaida.

No amount of feel good platitudes will mean anything to politics which now only seeks the lawful the results of power, force, and stupidity.

Nor can soap box speeches.

Quite true. The people who are astute enough to realize they are being given the middle finger have to make it unpleasant enough for politicians that the attempt will be abandoned.

 

[WizardofOz]

The goal of Interfaith is to bring peace through people expressing wonderful thoughts and platitudes. It doesn't happen. The human condition would never allow it. People capable of getting along don't need it and profit more from going deeper into their chosen tradition.

So now you do not only speak for Muslims, you speak for all people? Some people may profit from "going deeper into their chosen tradition", some don't and profit from exploring the traditions of others.

Making such simplistic generalizations is quite naive.

Political manipulation has its own goal in mind and just uses these platitudes to further its aims.

That's what I am asking; what are these goals and aims? Is it simply to bring peace as you say above, or is there more to it than that?

I smell another conspiracy brewing.

You are wrong. People are not opposed to the mosque but only the site on which it is to be built. I am part of this Great Unwashed mob so know where they are coming from.

See how you are speaking for everyone again? Some people are opposed to the mosque, some are not. Some people think it should be 2 blocks further away, some think it should be 10 or more.

Who's right? Which whim shall we follow or force others to follow? You can point to any poll you'd like, mob rule doesn't rule this nation.

If 99% of the country supported it, I would know it is time to pack it in. The country would have lost its sense of common decency which means the American soul is no more.

Of course that's not what I asked, but thanks for sharing. Your rhetoric is really top notch.

It is a well meaning idea but just fantasy. People like to feel good by exchanging nice sentiments but it doesn't stop them from changing according to circumstances and hitting each other over the head with peace signs.

Yeah, peace is overrated. :hammer:
Total waste of time seeking that out.

As I previously wrote, it wasn't sold until then and for a fraction of what had been offered:

Why for example would the property sell for 4.8 million when 18 million was offered for it?

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/m...b5MdehzkDDWY3H

New York developer Kevin Glodek was livid when he found out the building sold for a fraction of what he offered in 2007 -- $18 million cash -- and wondered whether money changed hands under the table, according to sources close to the deal.

Must be a conspiracy. Or not.

When it was being purchased the plan was to build condos. Only after the fact was the decision made to build the cultural center.

Initially, Gamal had planned to build a condominium complex at the site, but was convinced by Rauf’s idea for a cultural centre with a prayer space, especially as the Muslim community in New York had been growing for some time.

source

So much for the conspiracy. :idunno:

I don't walk around with politically correct rose colored glasses. The aim of advocates of Sharia are obvious. Here is a Muslim that understands:

http://www.newsmax.com/InsideCover/groundzeromosquetawfik/2010/08/18/id/367823

Islamic expert Tawfik Hamid tells Newsmax that many Muslims will view the construction of a mosque near ground zero as symbolizing a “triumph over America.”

He also declares that if the mosque is built it could prove to be the “spark” that begins a “war between civilizations.”

Hamid is well acquainted with the threats from radical Islam — he was once a member of a terrorist Islamic organization along with Dr. Ayman Al-Zawahiri, who later became the second in command of al-Qaida.

If I mine some quotes attributed to Muslims who say the center will bridge the gap and bring peace, will you be compelled?

No amount of feel good platitudes will mean anything to politics which now only seeks the lawful the results of power, force, and stupidity.

Um, what?

Quite true. The people who are astute enough to realize they are being given the middle finger have to make it unpleasant enough for politicians that the attempt will be abandoned.

Does your posting on TOL make "it unpleasant enough for politicians"?

Go grab your soapbox. The battle may yet be won. :singer: