toldailytopic: How do you feel about building a mosque at ground zero?

[WizardofOz]

A great deal of you are flaming idiots. Building this is akin to Israel allowing a shrine to be built honoring Auschwitz in the old city. It has nothing to do with wanting to worship. Get your brains out of neutral. Or leave them there, I don't really care as long as you don't vote.

Comparing a mosque to a shrine honoring Auschwitz? :hammer: At least now we know who the flaming idiot is.

How about a statue of Timothy McVeigh in downtown OKC?
Perhaps we could carve the faces of Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold at Red Rocks.
Subway could create a Jeffrey Dahmer special meat sandwich in Milwaukee
Or better yet, we could construct an Obama library anywhere in America

I stand corrected; flaming idiots.

 

[Quincy]

DO you feel the same sense of insensitivity when Native Americans complain and protest Christian churches being built to close to them because of their dark history with Christians?

What about the insensitivity they feel is being showed when Thanksgiving is celebrated?

I'm Cherokee and to be honest with ya I take myself out of the equation with stuff like this. I try to respect the law that's been established and individual rights. Personally I don't like it, I won't lie. Many natives do follow Christianity and that does sadden me but I don't let that govern how I function in society and I wish more people where like that. I don't personally think it's an appropriate thing to do, building that mosque so close to ground zero, given many american's feelings about it. That however is a personal matter that needs to be taken up on a local level, I would think.

I just wanted to elaborate some on this, I don't disagree with you in principle, on an emotional level, but I don't ever object to the location of churches if it's legal.

 

[Todah]

But it is motivated by that Bybee. Muslims were involved in 911, so why are they building a mosque to rub it in our face. People are associating all Muslims and Islam in general as the offender and considering it disrespectful for the offender to build over what they have done to us. That's what it is.

If it was a Muslim building a coffee shop no one would care. it is religious bigotry plain and simple. If not, what does the mosque builder have to do with 911 other than he wants to build a Muslim mosque?

If a bunch of radical Christians, flew planes into the Burj Khalifa in Dubai, and destroyed it, in the name of Christ,{even though many Christians would be in the building at the time} against filthy rich Arab, Muslims of Dubai: Then you would have a similar scenario to the stated goals and motivation of Al Queda and Osama.

Then if two blocks away, ten years later, a Christian Church decides to build a huge cathedral and Christian cultural center, to emphasize that Christianity is not represented by the radicals who flew that plane into the Burj. Then you would have an equivalent scenario.

Would you defend their right to build it. What would the Arab Muslims of Dubai do, to the Christians applying for the permit, and subsequentally building it?

 

[Non-Excluvistic]

If a bunch of radical Christians, flew planes into the Burj Khalifa in Dubai, and destroyed it, in the name of Christ,{even though many Christians would be in the building at the time} against filthy rich Arab, Muslims of Dubai: Then you would have a similar scenario to the stated goals and motivation of Al Queda and Osama.

Then if two blocks away, ten years later, a Christian Church decides to build a huge cathederal and Christian cultural center, to emphasize that Christianity is not represented by the radicals who flew that plane into the Burj. Then you would have an equivalent scenario.

Would you defend there right to build it. What would the Arab Muslims of Dubai do, to the Christians applying for the permit, and subsequentlaly building it?

#1 This is not Dubai

#2 Christians have done worse in other lands and still built churches regardless of how people felt

#3 If Muslims in Dubai wanted to stop Christians from building I wouldn't stand behind it, but hey, maybe that's because I'm from a land were religious freedom is supposed to be the trademark of the land

#4 Dubai and America are apples and oranges. American law says everyone has the right to religious freedom and practice, and that includes building worship places, where they want when they want as long as they can afford it and it meets regulations. If Dubai had the same in their laws, then they should follow the law, and if not then of course they shouldn't.

Regardless of feelings, laws of the land should be upheld regardless of feelings.

Majority does not decide what is right or wrong, our set of rights and laws does.

 

[Todah]

#1 This is not Dubai

#2 Christians have done worse in other lands and still built churches regardless of how people felt

#3 If Muslims in Dubai wanted to stop Christians from building I wouldn't stand behind it, but hey, maybe that's because I'm from a land were religious freedom is supposed to be the trademark of the land

#4 Dubai and America are apples and oranges. American law says everyone has the right to religious freedom and practice, and that includes building worship places, where they want when they want as long as they can afford it and it meets regulations. If Dubai had the same in their laws, then they should follow the law, and if not then of course they shouldn't.

Regardless of feelings, laws of the land should be upheld regardless of feelings.

Majority does not decide what is right or wrong, our set of rights and laws does.

I think you kind of ,sort of, answered the questions? Here is what I read between your lines. If the laws of Dubai, which are different from the US; permitted the construction of a Christian Cathedral and cultural center, you would support it. If there laws do not, then you would support the law of Dubai.

You would be against Muslims of Dubai opposing the building, but suspect they would be far less tolerant, because they are not raised in our far more tolerant culture?

I suspect, they would be so intimidated by Muslims, that they would never even think of doing it. If they did, I suspect that many of them would be murdered by the radical Muslims in Dubai. Do you agree with my suspicions?

I think the problem in America is that Muslims are not sufficiently intimidated by Americans, whether of Christian, or a godless persuasion. That is the main reason why the mosque has gone as far as it has...... so far!

 

[Krsto]

Building this is akin to Israel allowing a shrine to be built honoring Auschwitz in the old city.

Riiiiiight. You've been listening to The Savage Nation (so was I, that's where I heard the same argument).

Nobody is building a shrine to 911. If anything, it will have a public area with lots of propoganda denouncing terrorism in general and 911 in particular, if they can get any Americans in who are not afraid to go in.

 

[Non-Excluvistic]

I think you kind of sort of answered the questions? Here is what I read between your lines. If the laws of Dubai which are different from the US permitted the construction of a Christian Cathedral and cultural center, you would support it. If there laws do not, then you would support the law of Dubai.

You would be against Muslims of Dubai opposing the building but suspect they would be far less tolerant, because they are not raised in our far more tolerant culture?

I suspect they would be so intimidated by Muslims, that they would never even think of doing it. If they did, I suspect that many of them would be murdered by the radical Muslims in Dubai. Do you agree with my suspicions?

I think the problem in America is that Muslims are not sufficiently intimidated by Americans, whether of Christian, or a godless persuasion. That is the main reason why the mosque has gone as far as it has so far!

I am not getting the point you are making. Can you condense and clarify your stance.

 

[Todah]

I am not getting the point you are making. Can you condense and clarify your stance.

Do you think that the Muslims of Dubai would permit a Christian Cathedral and cultural center after a few radical Christians destroyed the world's tallest building, the Burj. Yes or no? That is my point. If you can answer that, with a yes or no we could have a further discussion. I am only asking what you "think" would happen.

This is what I "think" would happen........I think the Dubai government, would outlaw Christianity, within the first year, and the radicals would go on a beheading spree, almost immediately.

Your thoughts?

 

[kmoney]

Do you think that the Muslims of Dubai would permit a Christian Cathedral and cultural center after a few radical Christians destroyed the world's tallest building, the Burj. Yes or no? That is my point. If you can answer that, with a yes or no we could have a further discussion. I am only asking what you "think" would happen.

This is what I "think" would happen........I think the Dubai government, would outlaw Christianity, within the first year, and the radicals would go on a beheading spree, almost immediately.

Your thoughts?

How is what Dubai would do relevant?

 

[Non-Excluvistic]

Do you think that the Muslims of Dubai would permit a Christian Cathedral and cultural center after a few radical Christians destroyed the world's tallest building, the Burj. Yes or no? That is my point. If you can answer that, with a yes or no we could have a further discussion. I am only asking what you "think" would happen.

This is what I "think" would happen........I think the Dubai government, would outlaw Christianity, within the first year, and the radicals would go on a beheading spree, almost immediately.

Your thoughts?

I don't know about Dubai, I'd assume not, but then again, I'm not there. But I know Turkey would, and has, because it has a democracy similar to America's. Turkey is a Muslim land that has allowed Christians to exist after incidents.

The fact of the matter is that laws are set and should be followed regardless of personal feelings. The attack on the mosque is from religious bigotry, and I'd acknowledge the same if it was Dubai in reverse if they were to stop someone from building religious establishments because a few of another religion did something wrong.

Im surprised you make such a comparison being that you live in a land where our law is supposedly superior to others and their laws and rights. Again, Dubai and America is like comparing apples to oranges. I think you know that, and that's why you chose Dubai. Why not compare apples to apples, maybe say Turkey and America?

 

[fool]

If a bunch of radical Christians, flew planes into the Burj Khalifa in Dubai, and destroyed it, in the name of Christ,{even though many Christians would be in the building at the time} against filthy rich Arab, Muslims of Dubai: Then you would have a similar scenario to the stated goals and motivation of Al Queda and Osama.

Then if two blocks away, ten years later, a Christian Church decides to build a huge cathedral and Christian cultural center, to emphasize that Christianity is not represented by the radicals who flew that plane into the Burj. Then you would have an equivalent scenario.

Would you defend their right to build it. What would the Arab Muslims of Dubai do, to the Christians applying for the permit, and subsequentally building it?

This is America.
We don't get divided by the lowest denominator.

 

[Nick M]

How about a statue of Timothy McVeigh in downtown OKC?
Perhaps we could carve the faces of Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold at Red Rocks.
Subway could create a Jeffrey Dahmer special meat sandwich in Milwaukee
Or better yet, we could construct an Obama library anywhere in America

At least somebody gets it. The builder is a known funder of islamic terrorism.

 

[Todah]

I don't know about Dubai, I'd assume not, but then again, I'm not there.

So your answer is I don't know, but if forced to answer yes or no, you are leaning toward no.

So, Turkey would probably be the one country, {that is mostly Islamic} that would most mirror the tolerance of The US; and both its Christian, and its godless citizens.

So you are arguing for the superiority of Christianity and the USA : which was founded by Christians and built upon Christian beliefs and principals, over the governments and religion of almost all other Islamic ruled countries. Correct?

 

[kmoney]

At least somebody gets it. The builder is a known funder of islamic terrorism.

Evidence?

 

[Non-Excluvistic]

So your answer is I don't know, but if forced to answer yes or no, you are leaning toward no.

So, Turkey would probably be the one country, {that is mostly Islamic} that would most mirror the tolerance of The US; and both its Christian, and its godless citizens.

So you are arguing for the superiority of Christianity and the USA : which was founded by Christians and built upon Christian beliefs and principals, over the governments and religion of almost all other Islamic ruled countries. Correct?

#1 As I've said, what does Dubai have to do with America, they do not have the same laws.

# 2 Turkey is over 90% Muslim and would be the Muslim nation equal in comparison with American form of government and laws, so you should compare a like establishment. They have had incidents with Christian violence but they didn't take their rights based on the actions of a few.

#3 America was not founded on any Christian principles. I wish you guys would stop those lies.

Treaty of Tripoli 1797

" Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries"
Read a copy of it here

"Official records show that after President John Adams sent the treaty to the Senate for ratification in May 1797, the entire treaty was read aloud on the Senate floor, and copies were printed for every Senator. A committee considered the treaty and recommended ratification, 23 of the 32 sitting Senators were present for the June 7 vote which unanimously approved the ratification recommendation" Source

#4 I am not arguing for any superiority falsely believed by people like you that America holds over others. i was addressing that from the typical Christian western arrogant standpoint saying I'm surprised you'd compare a America to others you feel aren't on the same level when it comes to justice.



Your argument isn't making much sense. This is not Dubai. America's laws provides for religious freedom, and that includes building this mosque regardless of what your personal feelings are. Seems to me you are wanting America to handle this like Dubai would.

 

[madman]

I stand corrected; flaming idiots.

I see, you stand firm with the idea that you can't blame all Muslims, because of the acts done by a few, is that correct? So, those who oppose allowing a mosque, in your view, are opposing all Muslims because of the acts of a few radical ones, is that right? It is YOUR view that the vast majority of Muslims are a peace loving people who just want to worship their god, and share the same tolerance for others, as you do, correct? After all, you and they have the same god, right?

 

[Lighthouse]

How do I feel? Well, at the very least it is a dreadful display of insensitivity and bad manners. At the very worst it is an opportunity to gloat by taking advantage of our laws to thumb their noses at us.
I hope they will reconsider and build their mosque somewhere else.
bybee

I concur. Because even believing that not all Muslims are as those responsible for what happened there, it is quite culturally insensitive to do this thing because of the people who do feel that way, especially those who lost family and friends that day, and in the days after during rescue and clean up. Because religion is not a race, it's a choice.

 

[Todah]

#1 As I've said, what does Dubai have to do with America, they do not have the same laws.

# 2 Turkey is over 90% Muslim and would be the Muslim nation equal in comparison with American form of government and laws, so you should compare a like establishment. They have had incidents with Christian violence but they didn't take their rights based on the actions of a few.

#3 America was not founded on any Christian principles. I wish you guys would stop those lies.

Treaty of Tripoli 1797

" Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries" Read a copy of it here

"Official records show that after President John Adams sent the treaty to the Senate for ratification in May 1797, the entire treaty was read aloud on the Senate floor, and copies were printed for every Senator. A committee considered the treaty and recommended ratification, 23 of the 32 sitting Senators were present for the June 7 vote which unanimously approved the ratification recommendation" Source

#4 I am not arguing for any superiority falsely believed by people like you that America holds over others. i was addressing that from the typical Christian western arrogant standpoint saying I'm surprised you'd compare a America to others you feel aren't on the same level when it comes to justice.



Your argument isn't making much sense. This is not Dubai. America's laws provides for religious freedom, and that includes building this mosque regardless of what your personal feelings are. Seems to me you are wanting America to handle this like Dubai would.

It seems to me that you don't want America to handle this as any Islamic nation would, with the possible exception of Turkey.

Therefore you are arguing for the superiority of America, over almost all other Islamic countries. You want the mosque-cultural center built. So far it will be. America has been inhabited and governed by people declaring themselves Christians for its entire history. In the ranges of 60 to 90%.

Christianity and the USA fit your tolerant and nonexclusivistic mindset-theology far better than your declared Muslim religion and beliefs. Deal with that! Forget Dubai, if you can't see the comparison that I made.

Treaty of Tripoli, Article 11 you have got to be kidding!!!!!!!

Try the founding documents, and founding State constitutions and other treaties with sovereign nations........ and not Muslim terrorists, like the Barbary Pirates.

 

[Non-Excluvistic]

It seems to me that you don't want America to handle this as any Islamic nation would, with the possible exception of Turkey.

I think America should handle it the way that is instructed by it's laws, and if you don't think so, why don't you move to one of the Dubai. And for the record, Turkey isn't the only one that allows for other religions to coexist in Muslim lands. i suggest you educate yourself instead of making broad generalizations out of ignorance. I used Turkey because it is often compared to America in the way it's government and laws are setup.

Therefore you are arguing for the superiority of America, over almost all other Islamic countries. You want the mosque-cultural center built. So far it will be. America has been inhabited and governed by people declaring themselves Christians for its entire history. In the ranges of 60 to 90%.

I am not arguing for any American superiority over others; that is western ignorance speaking through you. Each land decides their rights, and they should follow them and not make exception to them based on a feeling at the time.

Christianity and the USA fit your tolerant and nonexclusivistic mindset-theology far better than your declared Muslim religion and beliefs. Deal with that! Forget Dubai, if you can't see the comparison that I made.

ummm, first off you are speaking for yourself, not me. I feel no such thing. I am an American and I live like so. And when i visited Muslim lands I went by their rules and didn't find them offensive. You don't have the right to say that others are inferior because they have laws you may not agree with. I have no problem with Muslim laws in other lands, though I may not agree with some of them, just like I don't agree with some laws in America.

Treaty of Tripoli, Article 11 you have got to be kidding!!!!!!!

Try the founding documents, and founding State constitutions and other treaties with sovereign nations........ and not Muslim terrorists, like the Barbary Pirates.

Regardless of what the treaty was for, the President and the senate didn't agree with your Christian founded principle myth. They knew the constitutions when they approved the Treaty of Tripoli and what it says.


You have reduces yourself to arguments from ignorance. Trying to put words in my mouth doesn't make you appear to be any smarter.

 

[madman]

Treaty of Tripoli 1797

:rotfl:

Hey Non, don't forget to say your prayers to Allah-Tabul-Shiite

:chuckle: