toldailytopic: How do you feel about building a mosque at ground zero?

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Nathon Detroit

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...but we're here now and I think the best step is a step forward to building the mosque.
:idunno: Even though it will likely make most American's even more skeptical and angry at the Muslim community?

You don't really care about getting along with everyone on this issue do you? All you want to do is get along with the Muslim community.

That's not the way I roll. It's the Muslim community that is trying to do something divisive to our country. And because of that... I don't care if I offend them in return by rejecting this asinine idea.
 

tetelestai

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Since the KKK perverts Christianity the way many claim radical Muslims pervert Islam, then let’s have the KKK build a 100 million dollar cultural center right in the middle of Harlem, and see if anyone says anything.
 

Granite

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:idunno: Even though it will likely make most American's even more skeptical and angry at the Muslim community?

You don't really care about getting along with everyone on this issue do you? All you want to do is get along with the Muslim community.

That's not the way I roll. It's the Muslim community that is trying to do something divisive to our country. And because of that... I don't care if I offend them in return by rejecting this asinine idea.

Something like this makes it that much more difficult for Muslims who genuinely are trying to get along and live normal lives. This project does them zero favors, whether they recognize it or not.
 

Town Heretic

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If the idea was to show Islam's tolerance and quest for peace with other faiths and cultures, this backfired miserably.
I'm fairly certain the idea was to build a house of religion in a country that values the freedom of that expression enough to protect it in the Constitution and values its expression sufficiently to address God in its stamp...that and, of course, to build and keep their own place, where they couldn't be tossed into the street or have to worship in a basement.
While building this center may well be their right it's certainly imprudent,
Not if they believe in our principles.
tactless,
Only if you find the objections reasoned and reasonable...and I'm still waiting for more than passion on that side and a willingness to generalize in a way I pointed out (giving the 9th ward example) would seem laughable else. But this is Islam. These are people who frequently dress and look and sound different. Who worship in a way not even tangentially revered by the dominant culture. That's a real test of our fortitude and values. So far, I'm wondering if we come out of this with a C-.
tasteless,
When building a house of worship can be so described the arguments against have lost reason at their root.
and completely tone deaf.
Which begs the question, is there anything worth hearing? Is outrage divorced from a reasoned objection, the desire to attack a specific idea not because of any fault in the particular, but because of a larger hostility that does have a root in something more...is that sufficient?

Are all Southerners racist--to be shunned because many historically and recently have been exactly that thing and have done unspeakable things in the name of that hatred?
I for one am all for a pluralistic society that treats religions with equal respect but with that respect comes an expectation for treating that equity with its own kind of reverence. In this instance, Islam failed horribly.
So they can eat in the restaurant of ideas, so long as they do it in the kitchen...sufficiently removed from polite society?

Since the KKK perverts Christianity the way many claim radical Muslims pervert Islam, then let’s have the KKK build a 100 million dollar cultural center right in the middle of Harlem, and see if anyone says anything.
That's not remotely parallel. You might as well have compared building a church in the 9th ward of New Orleans (in light of the comments I mentioned) to building a Neo-Nazi welcome center next to the Holocaust museum. :sigh:

Do you see the problem?
 

kmoney

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:idunno: Even though it will likely make most American's even more skeptical and angry at the Muslim community?
Yes, because I think the skepticism and anger are based on misconceptions. And I think eventually the majority of people will be okay with it also.

You don't really care about getting along with everyone on this issue do you? All you want to do is get along with the Muslim community.
It's impossible to get along with everyone. The right choice isn't always the popular one. And yes, in this case the stance I'm taking is one that is going to be favored by the Muslim community but I don't think I'm pandering to them.

That's not the way I roll. It's the Muslim community that is trying to do something divisive to our country. And because of that... I don't care if I offend them in return by rejecting this asinine idea.
Primarily, it's divisive to those who think we're at war with Islam and view this mosque as an affront to the victims of the attacks, and I believe both of those statements are false and I'm not going to bend to what I think are misconceptions.
 

kmoney

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Since the KKK perverts Christianity the way many claim radical Muslims pervert Islam, then let’s have the KKK build a 100 million dollar cultural center right in the middle of Harlem, and see if anyone says anything.

Not a good comparison. It would only apply if radical Muslims were the ones building this mosque and I've seen no evidence for that.
 

Nathon Detroit

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Something like this makes it that much more difficult for Muslims who genuinely are trying to get along and live normal lives. This project does them zero favors, whether they recognize it or not.
Indeed... indeed.... but some folks are "more compassionate" and "more loving" than us and they want get along with everyone. Sadly.... all they are doing is pitting people against each other.
 

Nathon Detroit

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Yes, because I think the skepticism and anger are based on misconceptions. And I think eventually the majority of people will be okay with it also.
Even if it were a misconception it wouldn't matter. This issue WILL make most Americans dislike Muslims even more than they already do.

Just imagine putting a fertilizer plant near the Murrah Building in Oklahoma city.

Fertilzer isn't evil.

But the connection between it and the tragedy in Oklahoma City would be disrespectful to victims and families.

Primarily, it's divisive to those who think we're at war with Islam and view this mosque as an affront to the victims of the attacks, and I believe both of those statements are false and I'm not going to bend to what I think are misconceptions.
Misconceptions or not (which is highly debatable) most people associate Islam with the attacks on 911, maybe because the entire Muslim world (for the most part) cheered around the world when the WTC collapsed. It wasn't just the extremist terrorists who were yodeling in the streets.

I think you are extremely naive.

Your lust for tolerance makes you extremely intolerant of the wishes of the vast majority of American people.
 

Granite

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I'm fairly certain the idea was to build a house of religion in a country that values the freedom of that expression enough to protect it in the Constitution and values its expression sufficiently to address God in its stamp...that and, of course, to build and keep their own place, where they couldn't be tossed into the street or have to worship in a basement.

And location has nothing to do with it? The idea isn't "just" that they're building a place of worship, TH. What makes this offensive is where they've chosen to erect it. To quote Bartender Moe, this is the equivalent of a fork in the eye.

But this is Islam. These are people who frequently dress and look and sound different. Who worship in a way not even tangentially revered by the dominant culture. That's a real test of our fortitude and values. So far, I'm wondering if we come out of this with a C-.

That's right: a religion so dementedly at odds with the West that a sect of it thinks flying planes into skyscrapers is something God told them to do. And you expect us to have a cool headed and rational discussion about this in New York, of all places. Not everyone's a lawyer, TH, and not everyone (especially locals) can discuss this dispassionately. Maybe you can handle this like a Vulcan but expecting Joe Blow off the street to, and judging him for it, is completely at odds with reality.

When building a house of worship can be so described the arguments against have lost reason at their root.

Oh really. And how would you describe Westboro Baptist Church?

Are all Southerners racist--to be shunned because many historically and recently have been exactly that thing and have done unspeakable things in the name of that hatred?

Is anyone who objects to this mosque an anti-Arab racist? Sauce for the goose and gander.
 

kmoney

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Even if it were a misconception it wouldn't matter. This issue WILL make most Americans dislike Muslims even more than they already do.

Just imagine putting a fertilizer plant near the Murrah Building in Oklahoma city.

Fertilzer isn't evil.

But the connection between it and the tragedy in Oklahoma City would be disrespectful to victims and families.

Misconceptions or not (which is highly debatable) most people associate Islam with the attacks on 911, maybe because the entire Muslim world (for the most part) cheered around the world when the WTC collapsed. It wasn't just the extremist terrorists who were yodeling in the streets.

I think you are extremely naive.

Your lust for tolerance makes you extremely intolerant of the wishes of the vast majority of American people.

I don't think I can add much but I will say that I'm surprised at your last statement. Since when is the majority position the one we should follow?
 

The Barbarian

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Bottom line is, a majority of people in the borough support the mosque. The poll has 53% of Manhattanites supporting the mayor on it.

And again, a major role reversal as conservatives howl for the federal government to step in and overrule local government, and liberals assert the right of local governments to decide zoning for themselves.

It's very entertaining, but a bit sad to see how quickly people toss principles out the window when they don't like the outcome.

Kmoney, regardng the idea that rights are subject to the whim of the majority:
I don't think I can add much but I will say that I'm surprised at your last statement. Since when is the majority position the one we should follow?

I can remember when most libertarians were conservatives, believe it or not.
 

MrRadish

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Granite said:
Is anyone who objects to this mosque an anti-Arab racist? Sauce for the goose and gander.

I don't think anyone's suggesting that they are. Doesn't mean they have to be agreed with though.
 

Non-Excluvistic

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Since the KKK perverts Christianity the way many claim radical Muslims pervert Islam, then let’s have the KKK build a 100 million dollar cultural center right in the middle of Harlem, and see if anyone says anything.
Im sure you'll be in attendance for opening day too.
 

Nathon Detroit

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I don't think I can add much but I will say that I'm surprised at your last statement. Since when is the majority position the one we should follow?
WOW!! Talk about your all time missed points. Did you do that on purpose or are you really that stupid?

The majority isn't always right, but that isn't even close to the point I was making.

The point is... it's ironic that somebody who wants to present themselves as tolerant is being so intolerant to the vast majority. (in case you didn't catch it... that specific point has nothing to do with right and wrong yet everything to do with your blinding intolerance)
 

Nathon Detroit

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It's very entertaining, but a bit sad to see how quickly people toss principles out the window when they don't like the outcome.
Oh my gosh I seriously can't believe how stupid you people are. This isn't about rights you flaming moron.

It's about tact, respect, and sensitivity towards the victims of 911.

They can build their Mosque pretty much anywhere else they want to. Just not within a football field of ground zero.
 

tetelestai

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Not a good comparison. It would only apply if radical Muslims were the ones building this mosque and I've seen no evidence for that.

Have you read about the Imam of the Mosque and some of the things he has said over the years?

I consider the Imam of the Mosque a full supporter of the radical Muslims.
 

Nathon Detroit

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I think we should strike a deal with the Muslims.

We will let you build your Mosque near ground zero if we can build a Christian church in Mecca. :rotfl:
 
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