Trumpetfolker
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@ Strip
@ Strip
I did use the phrase "public/sinner education".
@ Strip
I did use the phrase "public/sinner education".
toldailytopic: Government run schools. What (if anything) would you do to change them
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
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Trumpetfolker
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@ Knight
@ Knight
As a home school-er who achieved the desired results inexpensively three out of three times, I see the present condition of American education as the perfect opportunity to take over.
If each church would commit to the education of American children as their first missions calling by giving one grade of school to twenty neighborhood kids the way God sends rain and sunshine (i. e., whether the kids are churched or unchurched), the Christians would have a say in who has to attend public school.
Children who will not submit to the learning atmosphere could be shunted over into public/sinner education. As parents saw the Christian educated people bein preferred in hiring and promotion while the public/sinner educated were going into gangs, crime, and prison, they would be motivated to discipline at home and lead their kids into church somewhere.
Thus, the mission has an end game in mind: bringing in the unchurched and disciplining them in the way of heaven while training the new generation to live godly and dignified lives.
@ Knight
As a home school-er who achieved the desired results inexpensively three out of three times, I see the present condition of American education as the perfect opportunity to take over.
If each church would commit to the education of American children as their first missions calling by giving one grade of school to twenty neighborhood kids the way God sends rain and sunshine (i. e., whether the kids are churched or unchurched), the Christians would have a say in who has to attend public school.
Children who will not submit to the learning atmosphere could be shunted over into public/sinner education. As parents saw the Christian educated people bein preferred in hiring and promotion while the public/sinner educated were going into gangs, crime, and prison, they would be motivated to discipline at home and lead their kids into church somewhere.
Thus, the mission has an end game in mind: bringing in the unchurched and disciplining them in the way of heaven while training the new generation to live godly and dignified lives.
Dr.Watson
New member
I disagree. Here's your comment with Alate_One's response:
How exactly was Alate_One's response to you a non-sequitur? It was perfectly on target to your comment, which, by the way, was a non-sequitur reply to a red-herring argument by Cracked. I followed the entire brief dialogue between you two, and I too came to the same puzzled reaction that Alate_One did. If Alate_One didn't state the fact that most abuse is by family members, than I would have.
It simply does not follow that cutting funding to public schools will lower the instances of child abuse and neglect. How you came to that conclusion is only for you to know and everyone else to puzzle over.
WandererInFog
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I don't think it is either. I guess I just don't see much of a solution at all at this point, at least not at the level of the individual school or classroom. So long as you have a culture that doesn't place a premium on education, the most the teachers can do is hope to maintain order to the point where those students who are interested in learning actually can.
And it's moving beyond just inner city. The school where my dad teaches is actually in the suburbs, though in terms of demographics such as household income level the students are similar to those in many inner city schools.
By and large I would agree, there certainly are bad teachers but a lot them have gotten that way because the way the system is structured right now, they just sort of give up after a while.
The problem I see though is that while I can envision reforms that would benefit those students who are presently motivated to learn, I have a very hard time seeing what sort of education reforms you can use to motivate the ones who aren't. And if we don't find something we're going to end up with an ever enlarging, unemployable underclass which leads of course to overally crappy lives for those within that class as well as placing a massive drain on the resources of the rest of society.
I wish we could return our public schools to something like what they were when I went to them during the 60s and early 70s- places of learning, not indoctrination, either of the left or right wing kind.
Back then, we kids just went to school and studied different subjects.
Homosexuality and abortion were non-issues. We all pretty much kept our religious beleifs or lack of them to ourselves.
All of us, whether students or teachers, pretty much just minded our own business. There was absolutely no conflict between religion and science. My science teachers never even mentioned religion, in either a positive or negative way.
No Christian kid ever told me that as a Jew(albeit non-observant), I was doomed to hellfire.
Of course, some kids and some of the teachers were and are still gay, but we never even discussed homosexuality. No one ever "came out" or was tormented for being gay. We all just minded our own business.
Some girls may have had abortions, and they were already legal in New York State where I went to school, but I never heard anything about it. This now birning topic was never even brought up at any time in class.
It was pretty much a live and let live environment. We weren't indoctrinated and were allowed to make up our own minds.
We said the Pledge every morning, but it was just a formality.
I don't think there's any need for it any more in class. Kids mostly just go through the motions and don't even think about what it means.
I don't think it makes any of them better citizens.
And if we're going to have school prayer again, which prayers are going to be used? Christian? Jewish? Muslim? Hindu? Buddhist? Wiccan? Baha'i? We're an infinitely more religiously diverse nation than ever before.
I hate the term "government" schools, which conservatives are so fond of. It implies that there's some kind of sinister government program to turn our kids into pinko commies, which is beyond idiotic.
Yes, maybe some of our schools go overboard in programs attempting to prevent kids from having homophobic attitudes, but this is still infinitely preferable to what conservatives would want to turn our schools into.
And if any kids are subject to education which brainwashes, it's many of the ones who are homeschooled by their fundamentalist and extremely conservative parents. Many kids are being taught to be homophobes and to think they have the right to interfere with the lives of pregnant women, to be intolerant of all those who don't share their religious beliefs, and in general to be appallingly narrow-minded,intolerant and self-righteous. And a bunch of sanctimonious busybodies who think they have the right to tell others what religious beliefs they should have, and interfere with what books,magazines,films, and television programs they may or may not watch.
Have you seen the disturbing documentary "Jesus Camp"? It shows how Bible camps brainwash kids. And how their parents are guilty of putting their kids in such centers of indoctrination.
Parents should teach their kids to live and let live. And so should schools.
Back then, we kids just went to school and studied different subjects.
Homosexuality and abortion were non-issues. We all pretty much kept our religious beleifs or lack of them to ourselves.
All of us, whether students or teachers, pretty much just minded our own business. There was absolutely no conflict between religion and science. My science teachers never even mentioned religion, in either a positive or negative way.
No Christian kid ever told me that as a Jew(albeit non-observant), I was doomed to hellfire.
Of course, some kids and some of the teachers were and are still gay, but we never even discussed homosexuality. No one ever "came out" or was tormented for being gay. We all just minded our own business.
Some girls may have had abortions, and they were already legal in New York State where I went to school, but I never heard anything about it. This now birning topic was never even brought up at any time in class.
It was pretty much a live and let live environment. We weren't indoctrinated and were allowed to make up our own minds.
We said the Pledge every morning, but it was just a formality.
I don't think there's any need for it any more in class. Kids mostly just go through the motions and don't even think about what it means.
I don't think it makes any of them better citizens.
And if we're going to have school prayer again, which prayers are going to be used? Christian? Jewish? Muslim? Hindu? Buddhist? Wiccan? Baha'i? We're an infinitely more religiously diverse nation than ever before.
I hate the term "government" schools, which conservatives are so fond of. It implies that there's some kind of sinister government program to turn our kids into pinko commies, which is beyond idiotic.
Yes, maybe some of our schools go overboard in programs attempting to prevent kids from having homophobic attitudes, but this is still infinitely preferable to what conservatives would want to turn our schools into.
And if any kids are subject to education which brainwashes, it's many of the ones who are homeschooled by their fundamentalist and extremely conservative parents. Many kids are being taught to be homophobes and to think they have the right to interfere with the lives of pregnant women, to be intolerant of all those who don't share their religious beliefs, and in general to be appallingly narrow-minded,intolerant and self-righteous. And a bunch of sanctimonious busybodies who think they have the right to tell others what religious beliefs they should have, and interfere with what books,magazines,films, and television programs they may or may not watch.
Have you seen the disturbing documentary "Jesus Camp"? It shows how Bible camps brainwash kids. And how their parents are guilty of putting their kids in such centers of indoctrination.
Parents should teach their kids to live and let live. And so should schools.
"...[Leftifts oppose] ...even mentioning God in public schools — students must graduate as secular as possible.
It is not secularism that animates those positions; it is leftism..." full text: Government--Not God or Parents
Throwing more money at public schools is not the answer. They've received more money and have little to show for it. If you'd like public schools to work, stop asking God to stay outside.
As usual, you didn't address anything I actually said.
I just think you're missing the bigger point. It's not solely a money issue. There is obviously a benefit to society when our kids are educated; however, when God is systematically removed from our public schools, it a no-brainer that they will fail.
Shifting money around will not solve the problem. Even if parents do not have to pay for public schools because they put their kids in private or parochial schools--it does not solve the problem. Public school kids are still housed in failing institutions and we must ask why. I say--it's because we've asked God to leave (Deut 28). Funding will not change that.
That seems to imply that every parochial school will be a success. Or that allowing kids to pray will roll back years of poor teaching, mediocre curriculums, and low expectations.
Poly
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We are teaching our kids from the day they are born. Why are parents suddenly unable to do this once their kids turn 5?
They are able to. It all boils down to willingness. If it takes time and effort to study Algebra because it doesn't come easy, then make an effort. If parents still have trouble, there are many resources today that will allow your child to successfully get through it. If a parent really cares enough he will find a way. Co-ops are available to parents who are willing to take the time to search for them. I've known many parents who've had family members or friends who were pretty savvy in a particular subject in which the parent might have difficulty and the family member helps them out.
Most people are quick to give their opinion of homeschooling (usually a result of what they've heard somewhere else) as facts and know nothing of what they're talking about. Then they tell Mr. Jones down the street, at work, or at school these "facts". It now becomes fact to Mr. Jones who tells his family, neighbors, co-workers, and anybody who might ask about it. And they all know what he says must be true because it lines up with what the media has to say about it, so.... 'nuff said.
So what about the other 4 hours of the weekday and the weekend that the kid spends at home with the family members? I think it's sad that people seem to have an attitude of "Well, at least they'd be safe some of the time."
Here's an idea. Let's address the abusive parent who is capable of being abusive at any time of the day rather than making public school out to be some kind of solution for it.
Alate_One
Well-known member
Because reading and writing are just the beginning. (And even those may take considerable skill to teach properly) We live in a complex society that requires extensive education for students to do well as adults. You can't expect parents to become experts at everything.
Its great if SOME parents can and are willing to do this, but parents that cannot should not be told they are somehow worse parents for their children. Otherwise you encourage people that have NO BUSINESS homeschooling to home school.
No they aren't. I bounced the idea the idea off of my fellow professors at lunch today and they just laughed. One related a story of a parent that hadn't potty trained her child by age 5. There was nothing wrong with the child, she simply had no idea how to parent. Someone finally called protective services on her, and she THANKED them because she had no idea what she was doing.
It isn't all effort. While many people can do an almost decent job with an extreme amount of effort, frankly why bother when there are professionals that have been teaching algebra for years.
But the real problem is there are people that are simply incapable of doing algebra! Granted their children may be in the same boat but they might not be. Do you want to encourage/force these people to try to educate their children? That's exactly the situation one of my distant family members is facing.
Unless the parents are alone, embarrassed or too stubborn to ask for help and is this all too frequent.
You posted as if homeschooling was the solution for everyone. I didn't post anything about homeschooling being bad in every situation. But anyone can come up with a situation or a personal example where homeschooling is a bad idea. I think you must have an assumption about what I'm saying to respond the way you do since you're responding to things I never said . . .
You've totally misconstrued my response to something I did not say. I'm not saying "sending kids to school will stop all abuse". I was replying to Stripe since he said the opposite (that sending kids home would stop abuse).
I don't disagree with you here . . . I don't know why you assumed I said something I did not.
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I think that could be a good idea. I read the book "Outliers" (good book) and one chapter in the book talked about the education system. He showed that significant progress can be lost during the summers because kids generally completely stop doing anything to learn or stimulate their brains. And the loss is greater in less affluent families. If we'd cut out that summer break the kids would be in a constant state of learning and could probably make more progress.
The tests done on this were to test students at the beginning of summer/end of current school year and then again at the end of summer/beginning of next school year. I believe most kids saw a drop, but in poor families the drop was larger.
Good luck getting teachers and kids to give up that 3 month break though.
Really? I was thinking of another smiley that was paid for by TOLers. One that isn't actually active anymore. One named for a certain poster. A poster that isn't here anymore.
:angel:
Oh well ... I guess I'm doomed to spend my life being misunderstood then...
Alate_One
Well-known member
It helps when you actually say what you're thinking rather than only putting down half to a tenth of what is in your head and expecting people to mind read.
It helps when you actually say what you're thinking rather than only putting down half to a tenth of what is in your head and expecting people to mind read.
You'd be surprised at how very little remains up there....
lain:
I don't know, Harvard was founded by a Presbyterian minister primarily for the purposes of training clergy in the Christian faith :idunno: How the mighty fall.
See:
An Outline History of Religion in American Schools http://www.free2pray.info/Schools.html
"What is wrong in America? We are in a crisis. No longer do we believe in absolute truth. If you go back to a period, it began in 1962 to 1982, the courts in 20 years reversed the principle of "One Nation Under God" that had been the principle of American History. In 1962, in Engel v. Vitale Justice Hugo Black ruled that voluntary prayer in schools was unconstitutional. In 1963, in Abington Township School District v. Schempp Justice Thomas Clark set in motion the dismantling of Bible reading. Then, in 1980 the posting of the Ten Commandments was declared unconstitutional. Then came 1982, and the courts prohibited the teaching of creationism--that men, boys and girls were created by Almighty God. Twenty years it took them to expel God from the public schools and tell him not to come back.
What has been the result of that? Children need permission to have medication, but aided by high school counselors, they may have an abortion and to kill a baby. We are in serious times. God has been so systematically excluded a study by the U.S. Department of Education headed up by Dr. Vitz, a professor of psychology at New York university was released to the American public. It was a study centered on text books used by millions of boys and girls in public schools. After the study, Dr. Vitz said: "Those responsible for these books appear to have a deep seated fear of any form of active contemporary Christianity, especially serious, committed Protestantism. This fear has led the authors to deny and repress the importance of this kind of religion in American life. This nature of the bias is clear. Religion, traditional family values, and conservative political and economic positions have been reliably excluded from children's textbooks. The exclusion is particularly disturbing because it is found in a system paid for by taxpayers and one that claims moreover to be committed to impartial knowledge and accuracy. Textbooks are so written as to present a systematic denial of the history, heritage, beliefs, and values of a very large segment of the American people."
That is not a preacher saying that. That is a report by a professor of psychology of New York University, funded by the United States Department of Education. There has been a systematic move to exclude those things we find dear and what we believe to be the foundation of this nation. And as a result, we see values clarification being put into schools. We see values neutral sex education put into schools. We see dispensing of birth control devices and condoms being put into schools. We see abortion counseling without parental notification being put into schools. We see homosexuality being introduced in textbooks as an acceptable lifestyle..." full text: Edited notes based on sermon by Adrienne Rogers:* Ghosts That Haunt Us http://vananne.com/armorofthelord/Ghosts that Haunt Us.htm
"The Philosophy of the school room in one generation will be the Philosophy of Government in the next." Abraham Lincoln
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"Let me control the textbooks and I will control the state." - ?
“When an opponent declares, “I will not come over to your side,”
I calmly say, your child belongs to us already…” - ?
Hint: Godwin's Law
“When an opponent declares, “I will not come over to your side,”
I calmly say, your child belongs to us already…” - ?
Hint: Godwin's Law
Dr.Watson
New member
Well it seems that you're the common denominator for the confusion. As Alate_One pointed out, it helps when you communicate the entire idea, and not just part of it in the hopes that your audience pieces it together for you. If I wrote like that in my profession, I'd spent my life in court and be out of a job.
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