toldailytopic: Eternal torment, Annihilationism or Universalism, which do you believe

[Psalmist]

I believe in none, although eternal torment would be quite a pleasant surprise.

For you it's best not to believe in anything, than to have believed in anything at all.​

 

[Arthur Brain]

AB, it matters because those that appropriate a label tend to live up to it. A quick survey of heterodoxies and heresies espoused hither and yon can be found in those who proudly declare themselves "Other". When I encounter views that are beyond the bounds, I can do nothing but sigh in disappointment. Be encouraged, however, for the "Lone Ranger, Just Me and My Bible I dont Need to Submit to Church Authorities" believer runs a close second to "Other" for frequently holding to bizzare views.

AMR

Er, AMR, it's hardly unique within 'Christian' circles for accusations of heresy to be espoused, your own branch included, so on it's own that 'criticism' means nothing to me. I don't "proudly" declare myself 'other' for starters. I used to attend an 'Evangelical' church and I refused to submit to the doctrine of hell they taught themselves, and even they couldn't agree on it. I simply do not attach myself to any particular denomination. You can sigh in disappointment as much as you will. Your own denomination takes the name of a man, and if it's 'beyond the bounds' to believe that there's a God who creates life without the parameters of eternal suffering then so be it. Frankly it beggars belief that people can actually reduce the appalling monstrosity of such to 'intellectualism' on a page....

 

[Arthur Brain]

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Every time the word "Savior" is used in the Bible does not automatically mean it is being used in a soteriological (salvific) sense. The fact that "especially" appears in the verse should signal a clue that another sense of the word is in play.

See:
[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]http://www.the-highway.com/1Tim4.10.html[/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]

The above is one interpretation. The more I study the passage the more I am convinced the phrase "especially...." means "that is, believers". I draw this from the fact the underlying Greek in some cases (2 Tim. 4:13; Tit. 1:10, 11; and in 1 Tim. 4:10) should be understood as providing a further definition or identification of that which precedes it and thus renders it by such words as "that is."

No matter which way you end up, there is no way this verse is teaching universalism.

[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]AMR[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[/FONT]

How many times in Calvinism is the word 'all' reduced to 'many' or 'some'?

Would it not be valid to suggest that those 'especially saved' are those who reap the benefits of belief as oppose to those without? Else you're really offering nothing different than anyone else who morphs 'especially' into 'only' no matter how eruditely put.

 

[Arthur Brain]

Thanks
AMR. I trust your exegesis.
Universalism, as a doctrine, would make the crucifixion and resurrection pointless, or so it seems to me.
On the other hand, I have mused long over MacDonald's assertion that "All who want to be saved shall be saved".

Why would it make it pointless if you believe a sacrifice was necessary to bridge the gap between man and God to start with? Does it only count for those who recognize it and effectively play their own part in avoiding 'hell' etc? If Jesus died for all then how does it make it pointless if all are reconciled by His sacrifice?

 

[bybee]

Why would it make it pointless if you believe a sacrifice was necessary to bridge the gap between man and God to start with? Does it only count for those who recognize it and effectively play their own part in avoiding 'hell' etc? If Jesus died for all then how does it make it pointless if all are reconciled by His sacrifice?

We are free to choose what matters to us.

 

[Arthur Brain]

We are free to choose what matters to us.

Does that mean you think every atheist/agnostic is consciously choosing to reject God? I don't, and I suspect you don't either, but why couldn't Jesus' sacrifice take such human fallibility into account regardless? And why - if the sacrifice was necessary to reconcile anyone, should it matter whether people believe or not on this plane? Doesn't that mean it requires human input as well as God's to spare themselves from "hell" et al?

 

[Nang]

If Jesus died for all then how does it make it pointless if all are reconciled by His sacrifice?

This is totally logical.

It is just as logical to believe that many will be saved, because the Savior bore the transgressions of many.

Isaiah 53:11-12

One must either decide that salvation is universal or that salvation is particular, for there is no other logical position.

However, Universalism fails greatly under the scrutiny of the entire Word of God.

Nang

 

[bybee]

Does that mean you think every atheist/agnostic is consciously choosing to reject God? I don't, and I suspect you don't either, but why couldn't Jesus' sacrifice take such human fallibility into account regardless? And why - if the sacrifice was necessary to reconcile anyone, should it matter whether people believe or not?

Yes.

I suspect none of us deserve the death of a righteous man in our place?
When the Titanic sank many men who could have overpowered women chose to die instead.
I cannot think of an endeavor which can succeed if one does not believe in it?

 

[Arthur Brain]

Yes.

I suspect none of us deserve the death of a righteous man in our place?
When the Titanic sank many men who could have overpowered women chose to die instead.
I cannot think of an endeavor which can succeed if one does not believe in it?

Did Jesus not believe in it? Is His sacrifice moot if it covers everyone even if people were to come to realize it at different times? Are you any better than an atheist because you've come to believe and they haven't? Doesn't that mean you have to take some credit yourself if that's what's important and spares you from whatever fashion of hell awaits those who don't?

Human altruism is to be applauded for sure, but how many of those who have laid down their own lives did so without belief? Do they deserve to be consigned to oblivion or worse?

:think:

 

[Letsargue]

We are free to choose what matters to us.

I HOPE what you're saying is that what matters to you is the Work of Christ!!

Paul -- 040313

 

[Arthur Brain]

This is totally logical.

It is just as logical to believe that many will be saved, because the Savior bore the transgressions of many.

Isaiah 53:11-12

One must either decide that salvation is universal or that salvation is particular, for there is no other logical position.

However, Universalism fails greatly under the scrutiny of the entire Word of God.

Nang

Then I'd go with the option that does away with a cruel and capricious deity.

 

[Nang]

Then I'd go with the option that does away with a cruel and capricious deity.

A "cruel and capricious deity" would not provide grace, forgiveness, and an escape from death and hell . . . for anybody.

You are making the demand that God is obligated to save all, in order to be a righteous God. But God is righteous, primarily because He is holy and just.

I am so thankful God saved any of us from our sins, because none of us deserve His salvation, let alone the ransom price of the sacrifice of His only begotten Son.

Nang

 

[bybee]

Did Jesus not believe in it? Is His sacrifice moot if it covers everyone even if people were to come to realize it at different times? Are you any better than an atheist because you've come to believe and they haven't? Doesn't that mean you have to take some credit yourself if that's what's important and spares you from whatever fashion of hell awaits those who don't?

Human altruism is to be applauded for sure, but how many of those who have laid down their own lives did so without belief? Do they deserve to be consigned to oblivion or worse?

:think:

I don't know what anyone deserves. I'm hoping I won't get what I deserve.
My thought? There are many surprises awaiting us in the hearafter.
Who knows which side of the gate awaits? And who knows what shocked looks of surprise shall manifest on the faces of those in whose midst one finds oneself?

 

[xAvarice]

For you it's best not to believe in anything, than to have believed in anything at all.​

Nope, I actually take great pleasure in being incorrect in my assumptions. As for eternal torment... it'd be captivating to see how it plays out.

 

[Letsargue]

1 Corinthians 13:9-13 KJV --- 9- “For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10- But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11- When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12- For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
13- And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity”. -------///--- Paul just got through saying that that was then, not “Later”. ---- There must be something to that, - besides what comes after a total destroying of the whole creation. – Something Must still be around, from what Paul is saying it will be Like AFTER, or “THEN”, “Then”?? – When, what, how shall I “Know” even as I also “AM KNOWN”; -- and by whom if not God face to face. --- Again: ---- Matthew 18:10 KJV ---&--- Hebrews 13:2 KJV ------///--- Must these hard to grasp stuff with the mind, - must they be untrue??? --- I realize it’s very Heavy stuff. --- Look, a fun thing. ---- A person bearing a heavy load, is said to be ( Heavy “Laden” ). What if that person could only be a woman?? - and in Truth, that’s the very way God works in Spirit. – (( Truth speaks Truth in Truth )). Who carries the Heavy Burden?? -- The man is the “Lader”, and it is he who burdens the “LADIE”. – I thought I’d throw that in for YOU. – Who hath seen a virtuous woman?? – Proverbs 31:10-31 KJV --- 10- Who can find a virtuous woman? for her price is far above rubies.
11- The heart of her husband doth safely trust in her, so that he shall have no need of spoil.
12- She will do him good and not evil all the days of her life.
13- She seeketh wool, and flax, and worketh willingly with her hands.
14- She is like the merchants' ships; she bringeth her food from afar.
15- She riseth also while it is yet night, and giveth meat to her household, and a portion to her maidens.
16- She considereth a field, and buyeth it: with the fruit of her hands she planteth a vineyard.
17- She girdeth her loins with strength, and strengtheneth her arms”: ------>>>>-----///--- 31. --- That's the Bride of Christ the Church, the Wife of Christ, Christ is her Husband seen in the gates of the City, New Jerusalem ---?.

Paul – 040313


Matthew 11:28 KJV --- 28- “Come unto me, all ye that ( “Labour” and are heavy “Laden” ), and I will give you rest. ----///--- That is Jesus saying to those who WILL be Christians, that the “Labor” and heavy “Laden” are from Him in the Spiritual when the time of the Spirit arrives. Jesus is saying in Spirit that He is the “Lader” who is giving His “Ladie” / “Lady” a heavy burden which makes her heavy “Laden”. --- The Lord’s “Ladie” is heavy “Laden” by the “Lader” / Jesus, but joyfully; - not as Israel in Egypt as slaves; though we / the Bride of Christ are Servants of Christ, - heavy “Laden” in Faith with Joy and Peace and Rest from the Burden of Satan. -------- Words have changed since then. – Really, - the only one here who may be up on such as this is AMR, - So how about it AMR, -- Really!!

Paul – 040313

What if I’m right in some of this?? – The shock of all time is awaiting for so many people.

Paul – 040313

 

[Nick M]

Does that mean you think every atheist/agnostic is consciously choosing to reject God?

Absolutely and without question.

Romans 1

19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

 

[Angel4Truth]

The TheologyOnline.com TOPIC OF THE DAY for April 2nd, 2013 05:00 AM

toldailytopic: Eternal torment, Annihilationism or Universalism, which do you believe and why?

I would love to believe in eventual annihilationism and think a case can be made for it, but in light of all the scriptures that touch anywhere on the issue, no matter how much i would love to believe it, i cannot and have to believe the bible speaks of eternal torment and it comes right down to if torment is not eternal, than neither will any have eternal life, because the 2 cannot be separated since the same use of eternal is given for eternal life as it is eternal punishment.

The torment i believe though is mostly self torment, being aware of having known the truth and rejecting it anyway and knowing you will be forever separated from the love of God and others when you could have had all that and did this to yourself.

 

[Dena]

Then I'd go with the option that does away with a cruel and capricious deity.

Isn't it fun when people insist you have to decide between their beliefs rather than having your own?

 

[Angel4Truth]

Isn't it fun when people insist you have to decide between their beliefs rather than having your own?

There is another option/belief within christianity that wasnt listed? Please share.

We are at Theology Online right and it is a christian board yes?

Its is possible not to post in threads which do not apply to your beliefs as well no?

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

How many times in Calvinism is the word 'all' reduced to 'many' or 'some'?

Would it not be valid to suggest that those 'especially saved' are those who reap the benefits of belief as oppose to those without? Else you're really offering nothing different than anyone else who morphs 'especially' into 'only' no matter how eruditely put.

AB,

So when you ask for how the verse is viewed, you really did not intend to be open to correction. Exegete the passages and let's see where things end up rather than wave off any view that differs from your own.

To your opening question above, the answer is that the word "all" is reduced to "many", "all kinds", etc., exactly as many times as is warranted from proper grammatico-historical hermeneutics. Surely you do not think that every time you encounter "all" in Holy Writ it singularly means each and every one in totality? That said, you do seem to be inclined towards universalism so your preferences are noted. :AMR:

AMR