The Berean
Well-known member
The city of Cleveland went to Baltimore? :idunno:
toldailytopic: Does God help some athletes more than others in sports?
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
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The city of Cleveland went to Baltimore? :idunno:
The Berean
Well-known member
Is it your view that God should feed every starving person and heal every sick person and stop all violence?
Fearlessly Express
New member
If I see a woman being raped, and do nothing, what kind of person am I? If I see people starving, and do nothing and say nothing, what kind of person am I? If am able to cure cancer, but withhold my knowledge, what kind of person am I?
In the same way, if god is able, and does not, god is immoral.
If god does not exist, that explains a lot of suffering.
You only bring this forward as an objection because you don't see the world as God sees it. We are like people standing right in front of a massive painting. But we can only see a tiny piece of the painting. From our perspective, the tiny piece of the painting looks ugly. We can't understand why a painter would have painted such a tacky piece.
But if we could step back and see the painting in its entirety, we'd see how that tiny piece of the painting is a part of the whole painting. And the whole painting is incredibly beautiful. It's a masterpiece.
If we were to step back and look at the whole painting, we would censure our former blame of the part. We would praise the painter who made such an amazing work, and we'd admit to ourselves that we wouldn't have painted the part (which we formerly thought was hideous) in any other way.
"GOD that all things didst create
and the heavens doth regulate..."
| Deus Creator Omnium | |
Fearlessly Express
New member
Actually it was Epicurus who first raised the objection, and it was because it is a logical objection to make based upon observation. I raise the objection here as it relates to the topic in that if god favors athlete performance over human suffering, what kind of god is he/she?
A god that would do so in my view is despicable, but that is just my opinion.
If you know Epicurus, then you should welcome my answer: it's neoplatonic.
I wouldn't say that God favors athlete performance over human suffering. What I would say is that God has care for all of the details. Everything fits into the divine plan. Everything has a place in the world that God has made.
The problem is one of perspective.
Nonetheless, God has given us a peek into his plan. From Christian revelation, suffering no longer is purely problematic. We know that suffering has meaning. Suffering has value. It is useful for our salvation.
Remember: Christ suffered. "But he was wounded for our iniquities, he was bruised for our sins: the chastisement of our peace was upon him, and by his bruises we are healed" (Isaiah 53:5).
I recommend praying the sorrowful mysteries of the Rosary. While you do, contemplate:
1. The five wounds of Christ.
2. The sorrow of Jesus and Mary. Consider how the sword of sorrow pierced the Immaculate Heart of Mary, who had to watch her divine son suffer. Consider the sorrow which filled the Sacred Heart of Jesus, who had to behold the sorrow of His mother.
3. The love for sinners which filled the Sacred Heart of Jesus, the lance which pierced the Sacred Heart, and the blood and water which gushed forth for our salvation.
Ask Jesus to unite you to His sufferings; ask the Blessed Mother to walk beside you as you behold Christ's sufferings, and to share in her grief as you kneel before Christ suspended on the cross for our salvation.
| Stabat Mater Dolorosa | |
| Anima Christi | |
Fearlessly Express
New member
If you know Epicurus, then you should welcome my answer: it's neoplatonic.
I wouldn't say that God favors athlete performance over human suffering. What I would say is that God has care for all of the details. Everything fits into the divine plan. Everything has a place in the world that God has made.
The problem is one of perspective.
Nonetheless, God has given us a peek into his plan. From Christian revelation, suffering no longer is purely problematic. We know that suffering has meaning. Suffering has value. It is useful for our salvation.
Remember: Christ suffered. "But he was wounded for our iniquities, he was bruised for our sins: the chastisement of our peace was upon him, and by his bruises we are healed" (Isaiah 53:5).
I recommend praying the sorrowful mysteries of the Rosary. While you do, contemplate:
1. The five wounds of Christ.
2. The sorrow of Jesus and Mary. Consider how the sword of sorrow pierced the Immaculate Heart of Mary, who had to watch her divine son suffer. Consider the sorrow which filled the Sacred Heart of Jesus, who had to behold the sorrow of His mother.
3. The love for sinners which filled the Sacred Heart of Jesus, the lance which pierced the Sacred Heart, and the blood and water which gushed forth for our salvation.
All of which is based upon assumptions we do not share, and ignores the logic of Epicurus' dilemma.
And additionally I take exception with a god who finds human suffering "useful". That god is a real immoral jerk. Looking at history, though, I can see where such a god would be so inclined. His church certainly found human suffering "useful" to win converts too.
You know... the ones who invented the "pear of anguish" and the rack. Torture is pretty useful in causing someone to suffer until they say what we want to hear.............................
Then give me the dilemma again, that I may examine it's logic. :idunno:
The same things are not useful to a healthy person and a sick person. We normally shouldn't cut or burn people. But doesn't a doctor cut and burn his patients, if it is useful for the restoration of their health?
In any case, I don't think that I can convince you one way or the other. But practically, I think that you'll find an answer if you simply take my advice: the cross appears differently to the eyes of the world and to the eyes of faith.
Approach Jesus and Mary at Calvary (through the Rosary; I promise, miracles are possible through the Rosary...you just have to know what miracles to ask for), even if you have the eyes of the world. And ask for the eyes of faith. If you do, I suspect that your way of looking at things might change some day.
Fearlessly Express
New member
The full quote goes as follows.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
Perhaps so, but to cause suffering to force someone to agree with you isn't the same thing as removing someone's appendix to save their life and comparison is apples and oranges.
I've certainly spent a lot of time praying; I don't think adding a rosary would have any impact. The fact remains that while prayer may have some beneficial psychological effect it still has no impact on outcomes, and any assertion to the contrary is a practice of confirmation bias. All the faithful of the world can pray for a month that all cases of cancer be miraculously cured. If they did, what would happen? Nothing. People would still die from cancer.
He is able, but not willing, but I deny that this makes him malevolent. As Plato says in the Republic, and as Plotinus picks up on, you can't paint a statue all eyes. If you did, it wouldn't be a statue.
As St. Thomas Aquinas answers:
"As Augustine says (Enchiridion xi): 'Since God is the highest good, He would not allow any evil to exist in His works, unless His omnipotence and goodness were such as to bring good even out of evil.' This is part of the infinite goodness of God, that He should allow evil to exist, and out of it produce good" (ST I, q. 2, a. 3, ad. 1).
I don't think it's like that. :idunno:
To pray the Rosary, you should do two things: 1. say the prayers themselves. 2. contemplate the mysteries of the rosary. The latter part is key.
Prayer isn't just a psychological exercise. When you pray, you ask God for things. When you pray the Rosary, pray the words of the Salve Regina especially very slowly and thoughtfully, from the bottom of your heart, to Mary: "Show unto us the most blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus."
You don't have faith? Faith is a gift which comes from God. Ask God for faith. Is it too difficult to approach God? Then ask Mary for her intercession. She is the Mother of God, and whenever She asks her divine son for something, her divine son, Jesus Christ, grants it.
"If you say the Rosary faithfully until death, I do assure you that, in spite of the gravity of your sins 'you shall receive a never fading crown of glory.' [2] Even if you are on the brink of damnation, even if you have one foot in Hell, even if you have sold your soul to the devil as sorcerers do who practise black magic, and even if you are a heretic as obstinate as a devil, sooner or later you will be converted and will amend your life and save your soul, if----and mark well what I say----if you say the Holy Rosary devoutly every day until death for the purpose of knowing the truth and obtaining contrition and pardon for your sins" (St. Louis Marie de Montfort, Secret of the Rosary, Red Rose).
Fearlessly Express
New member
Rosary hocus pocus aside, faith is a choice.
I choose not to have or practice faith, and in stead base what I believe on evidence and critical inquiry.
I choose not to have or practice faith, and in stead base what I believe on evidence and critical inquiry.
Fearlessly Express
New member
So, if this were God you'd worship him?
Do you have a point? No? Ok, well then you are dismissed.
I always have a point. However, you're leap to dismissal without waiting for an answer warrants I dismiss you; as I assume most here have done already.
You think a god should be some magical being who never lets anyone suffer. Which is likely as far as you got in your reasoning, so you have no solid foundation for your fairy tale views. You're so limited in your thought process you can't even begin to comprehend any possible reasons God might have for allowing us to suffer.
uh no, i said someone who worships God fares better than those who dont.
What you just said is completely irrelevant to that and this thread. (as usual)
yeshuaslavejeff
New member
YES !
it is written, "the race is not to the swift, the battle is not won by strength, not by the stength of the army, or of the man, but BY MY SPIRIT SAYETH THE LORD ! "
whether athletics, war, finances, the flesh profits nothing. YHWH IS IN CHARGE ! And the outcome rests in HIS HANDS.
it is written "without faith it is impossible to please God".
and
it is written "since HE(GOD)(YHWH) did not withhold HIS SON(crucified!!!), likewise HE(GOD)(YHWH) will not withhold anything needed from those who TRUST HIM, WHO CALL ON HIS NAME FOR HIS HELP (turn to HIM to be healed/saved/rescued from their own sin and from all the power of the enemy)
it is written, "the race is not to the swift, the battle is not won by strength, not by the stength of the army, or of the man, but BY MY SPIRIT SAYETH THE LORD ! "
whether athletics, war, finances, the flesh profits nothing. YHWH IS IN CHARGE ! And the outcome rests in HIS HANDS.
it is written "without faith it is impossible to please God".
and
it is written "since HE(GOD)(YHWH) did not withhold HIS SON(crucified!!!), likewise HE(GOD)(YHWH) will not withhold anything needed from those who TRUST HIM, WHO CALL ON HIS NAME FOR HIS HELP (turn to HIM to be healed/saved/rescued from their own sin and from all the power of the enemy)
Fiat Tenebris
New member
No, he helps them all equally. (Not at all)
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