toldailytopic: Do you support the Personhood movement?

[Sozo again]

Nice ad hominem - now, would you care to address the substance of my post?

You're not doing yourself any favors by asking me to look at MORE things you've said.

 

[Thunder's Muse]

I consider the following attributes to indicate personhood:

- self-awareness
- ability to function independent of a host organism (can breathe, feed and move on own accord)
- ability to express and act on will

A fetus possesses none of these traits, thus I do not consider it a "person."

As a man it's probably really hard for you to understand this but having carried 3 children full term, there is no way I can accept that a fetus is not a person.

To feel them grow and moving inside you is the most amazing thing. They respond to voices and music and even your touch. I knew my children before they were born...and I have been spot on with who they are. They are born with a personality, as individual as you or I and show that personality from the very beginning.

 

[Zeke]

I support it 100%
Pro choice before conception, pro life after.


Zeke.

 

[kmoney]

The TheologyOnline.com TOPIC OF THE DAY for November 24th, 2009 10:48 AM

toldailytopic: Do you support the Personhood movement? Personhood is changing the face of the pro life movement, where do you stand on personhood?

Take the topic above and run with it! Slice it, dice it, give us your general thoughts about it. Everyday there will be a new TOL Topic of the Day.
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I support it but it's easy to get discouraged with trying to fight abortion on the legal/government side of it. Abortion can be fought on all sides but at this point I think the most success will come from working with the women who want to have abortions.

 

[kmoney]

I support it 100%
Pro choice before conception, pro life after.


Zeke.

I like that.

 

[Vaquero45]

Most people in comas are brain dead - once the brain quits there's little (if any) chance that the patient will wake up. If I ever go into a coma (one not medically-induced), I would very much prefer that some one just put a bullet in the head of the corpse that once was my body and end what little life is still left in it.

Of course in your world view you cannot explain why it's wrong to put a bullet in anyone's head, regardless of brain health. You should deal with the 800lb gorilla in the room before you move on to finer things.

 

[Stripe]

Do I support the personhood movement?

:up:

 

[Gerald]

I support the protection of every conception from intentional harm.

Does preventing conception constitute "intentional harm"?

Just trying to find out the general stance on contraception in the thread.

 

[Sozo again]

Does preventing conception constitute "intentional harm"?
Just trying to find out your stance on contraception.

How can you "harm" that which is not conceived?

However, some contraceptives do harm a conception.

 

[Punisher1984]

To feel them grow and moving inside you is the most amazing thing. They respond to voices and music and even your touch. I knew my children before they were born...and I have been spot on with who they are. They are born with a personality, as individual as you or I and show that personality from the very beginning.

I know many mothers with similar opinions - however, these opinions are derived from their maternal instincts rather than objective facts and instincts will often lead one to ascribe agency where none exists; just look at the Fight-or-Flight instinct - where one can get that sense of "being watched" even when nothing is watching you (useful in a preditor-rich environment, not so useful in most modern settings).

Also, personallity isn't something one is born with - it develops over a lifetime (although genetics does have a strong influence on it, environment ultimately makes the difference). My guess is that you ascribed a particular personallity to your offspring and created an environment that cultivated that personallity-type: your success in forming the personallity you ascribe was then probably interpreted as foreknowledge of the offspring's personallity - this is known as the false causation fallacy coupled with a self-fulfilling prophecy (you bred the personallity you believed they possessed).

 

[Punisher1984]

Of course in your world view you cannot explain why it's wrong to put a bullet in anyone's head, regardless of brain health.

"Right" or "wrong" had nothing to do with my statement - I was expressing my wishes, not addressing the "morality" of them (as there is none).

You should deal with the 800lb gorilla in the room before you move on to finer things.

There is no gorilla - I never ascribed any "moral" quality to my statement, ergo your point is a red herring.

 

[Thunder's Muse]

I know many mothers with similar opinions - however, these opinions are derived from their maternal instincts rather than objective facts and instincts will often lead one to ascribe agency where none exists; just look at the Fight-or-Flight instinct - where one can get that sense of "being watched" even when nothing is watching you (useful in a preditor-rich environment, not so useful in most modern settings)

The maternal instinct is a very strong one but it hardly means I made it up. There is a big difference between being maternal and being delusional (hormones aside, of course )

Also, personallity isn't something one is born with - it develops over a lifetime (although genetics does have a strong influence on it, environment ultimately makes the difference). My guess is that you ascribed a particular personallity to your offspring and created an environment that cultivated that personallity-type: your success in forming the personallity you ascribe was then probably interpreted as foreknowledge of the offspring's personallity - this is known as the false causation fallacy coupled with a self-fulfilling prophecy (you bred the personallity you believed they possessed).

No, that's not what I did. Pregnant women aren't nuts, you know. While I was pregnant, I knew them. I didn't look back after the event and think 'I must have known them'. It was something I was conscious of the whole time.

 

[Nick M]

The TheologyOnline.com TOPIC OF THE DAY for November 24th, 2009 10:48 AM

toldailytopic: Do you support the Personhood movement? Personhood is changing the face of the pro life movement, where do you stand on personhood?

Take the topic above and run with it! Slice it, dice it, give us your general thoughts about it. Everyday there will be a new TOL Topic of the Day.
If you want to make suggestions for the Topic of the Day send a Tweet to @toldailytopic or @theologyonline or send it to us via Facebook.

Yep.

Can you first clarify how Personhood is changing the face of the pro-life movement?

It is a dividing line for those that are pro-life from those that say they are, but are not.

What are you going to do when the US Supreme Court finds personhood unconstitutional?

Vote for more Republicans? :dunce:

I consider the following attributes to indicate personhood:

- self-awareness
- ability to function independent of a host organism (can breathe, feed and move on own accord)
- ability to express and act on will

A fetus possesses none of these traits, thus I do not consider it a "person."

So an infant that breast feeds from the mother host is not a person. You are a genuis. Self aware? You aren't. You blithering idiot. Babies get nervous when the vacuum cleaner starts. Science proves it.

no, I am saying the only realistic approach to eliminating legal abortions is to get conservative judges on the court

Like the Republican majority on the court now? Who back Roe vs. Wade.

 

[Sozo again]

"Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me." Psalm 51:5

David considers his personhood to be at conception

 

[Lighthouse]

but you are not supporting my front

and

that is getting conservative judges on the courts

When was the last time a Republican put a conservative judge on the court?

 

[Vaquero45]

"Right" or "wrong" had nothing to do with my statement - I was expressing my wishes, not addressing the "morality" of them (as there is none).



There is no gorilla - I never ascribed any "moral" quality to my statement, ergo your point is a red herring.

Ergo you're an idiot if you think people will not see the slight of hand you attempt here. Nobody reading this thread with an IQ over ten thinks that "moral quality" doesn't apply to this topic. Completely ridiculous to try to shrug it off like you did here. Nobody is interested in your "wishes" except maybe Santa and your mom around birthday time. The gorilla just gained 50lbs.

 

[Punisher1984]

The maternal instinct is a very strong one but it hardly means I made it up. There is a big difference between being maternal and being delusional (hormones aside, of course )

I didn't say you were delusional, just that your instincts probably led you to form conclusions not based on facts (they do that and it really can't be helped).

No, that's not what I did. Pregnant women aren't nuts, you know.

At no point did I say you were.

While I was pregnant, I knew them. I didn't look back after the event and think 'I must have known them'. It was something I was conscious of the whole time.

Human memory is incredibly maliable (just look at academic studies concerning the validity of eye witnesses in court), so the fact that you believe your were conscious of what was happening the whole time doesn't really count for much (as memory has this nasty habit of filling in gaps with beliefs - and for the record, it's not your fault it's a fault in the wiring of your central nervous system which may take a couple million years of natural selection to fix).

 

[Punisher1984]

Ergo you're an idiot if you think people will not see the slight of hand you attempt here. Nobody reading this thread with an IQ over ten thinks that "moral quality" doesn't apply to this topic.

IQ and a sense of "morality" are not directly corrolated, and your statement completely ignores the Nihilist position (which holds that "morality" is irrelevant) - people like myself don't see such question as important beause in the end what we recognize isn't what "should" be but simply what is or what can be (all else is a matter of preferance).

Nobody is interested in your "wishes" except maybe Santa and your mom around birthday time.

The hospital certainly would be if I expressed them in the form of a living will - and it would be obliged by whatever "law" governs them to see that they are carried out in the event that I am no longer able to express intent.

There's no gorilla here as my only concerns are with practical matters, not "moral" matters.

 

[Punisher1984]

"Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me." Psalm 51:5

David considers his personhood to be at conception

David was a religious zealot that invoked the will of his "god" to justify the slaughter of his political enemies (1 Samuel 27 gives us an idea just how far he is reputed to go in destroying those who opposed him) - why do I care what a religious zealot believes is a "person" or not?

 

[Thunder's Muse]

Originally Posted by Thunder's Muse
Nobody is interested in your "wishes" except maybe Santa and your mom around birthday time.


LOL!!! Huh? I didn't say that! Bizzaro world....